Does the budget reflect our position? (10 Viewers)

[Captain Dart]

Have you seen the accounts year ending 31 May 2017? The ones that are not yet published. That is the period being referred to here.

Of course not they will be available in 2 to 3 weeks, I am going on the last 2 seasons figures and I have no reason to think there will be a major difference, do you?

 

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[oldskyblue58]

Which or whose financial year are you talking about?

The Checkatrade final is in the Otium financial year to 31/05/2017. Those figures are due out by 28/02/2018. The sales of Harries, Thomas & Stevenson are in the Otium financial year to 31/05/2018. The FA cup run is also in 2018 Otium financial year

Monies do not count on the SCMP until received, so have the supposed £1m in transfer fees been received or are they dependent on stage payments etc?

The current SCMP budget will be based on the 2017/18 season, that would probably exclude the Checkatrade monies depending on when received

THe cup monies would have had to cover the period from May to July when the club had no income but had expenses to pay, whilst trying to assemble a squad.

The only budget rankings are on the SCMP budget. Fisher said we had around the 8th best budget at the start of the season, which means at that stage they were projected figures. The ranking is done either half yearly or quarterly so it may have changed.

Which budget are we even discussing because SCMP budget doesn't necessarily mean that's the budget that MR is using it could be more (there are exclusions from the SCMP) it could be less. Some players do not count towards it at all.

Finally all of the income belongs to Otium t/a CCFC it isn't SISU's. It has to be paid in to and accounted for in the Otium t/a CCFC financials. As yet there is no evidence of SISU or ARVO extracting any funds or even any interest payments. Given the expenses to be met there isnt much room to take money out.

Final thought, CCFC match income alone from the league is currently pushing £2m even given the low crowds. Add in the league distributions, the commercial income, the sponsorship, the Cup winnings and match shares, plus the player sales & player add ons and I would guess turnover from all sources could be pushing towards £4m. There are clubs in this division that survive on crowds of less than 5000 (equates to league ticket income under 1.3m), have no cup run winnings, no great commercial income and few sales of stars. Some have even been promoted on such lowly turnovers - take a look at Burton for instance

Whilst we don't have the greatest income I cant help feeling we have recruited light weight players, been unlucky with long term injuries, seen some rank average decision making on the pitch and on the sidelines, and been not up to the job. We should be able to compete consistently at the top of this poor division and not be worrying as to where the next win comes from.

 

[Captain Dart]

Which or whose financial year are you talking about?

The Checkatrade final is in the Otium financial year to 31/05/2017. Those figures are due out by 28/02/2018. The sales of Harries, Thomas & Stevenson are in the Otium financial year to 31/05/2018. The FA cup run is also in 2018 Otium financial year

Monies do not count on the SCMP until received, so have the supposed £1m in transfer fees been received or are they dependent on stage payments etc?

The SCMP budget will be based on the 2017/18 season, that would probably exclude the Checkatrade monies depending on when received

THe cup monies would have had to cover the period from May to July when the club had no income but had expenses to pay, whilst trying to assemble a squad.

The only budget rankings are on the SCMP budget. Fisher said we had around the 8th best budget at the start of the season, which means at that stage they were projected figures. The ranking is done either half yearly or quarterly so it may have changed.

Which budget are we even discussing because SCMP budget doesn't necessarily mean that's the budget that MR is using it could be more (there are exclusions from the SCMP) it could be less. Some players do not count towards it at all.

Finally all of the income belongs to Otium t/a CCFC it isn't SISU's. It has to be paid in to and accounted for in the Otium t/a CCFC financials. As yet there is no evidence of SISU or ARVO extracting any funds or even any interest payments. Given the expenses to be met there isnt much room to take money out.

Final thought, CCFC match income alone from the league is currently pushing £2m even given the low crowds. Add in the league distributions, the commercial income, the sponsorship, the Cup winnings and match shares, plus the player sales & player add ons and I would guess turnover from all sources could be pushing towards £4m. There are clubs in this division that survive on crowds of less than 5000 (equates to league ticket income under 1.3m), have no cup run winnings, no great commercial income and few sales of stars. Some have even been promoted on such lowly turnovers - take a look at Burton for instance

Whilst we don't have the greatest income I cant help feeling we have recruited light weight players, been unlucky with long term injuries, seen some rank average decision making on the pitch and on the sidelines, and been not up to the job. We should be able to compete consistently at the top of this poor division and not be worrying as to where the next win comes from.

My point about transfers essentially agrees with you, payments are staged so if players are sold from time to time and do well then income will feed into the transfer dealings over several years from each deal. e.g. if Callum Wilson wins an England cap this season then the Cherries will almost certainly have to pay us a fee.

As for which year, even though the OP is concerned about this years budget I've already said those numbers will not be available till this time next year, some people choose to ignore that and imply I don't understand the publication schedule. The next figures due out shortly are for last season, the relegation season.

and you are right about competitiveness in this league, we should be top 3 not struggling to secure a playoff position.. its embarrassing.

 

[pastythegreat]

Of course not they will be available in 2 to 3 weeks, I am going on the last 2 seasons figures and I have no reason to think there will be a major difference, do you?

Yes, were in a different league, that gives me a lot of reason to believe there's a major difference.
Had you factored in less income from sponsorships? Lower ranking so money from the EFL/FA will be less. Or did you forget about all of That?

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[rupert_bear]

Unless they have a mega rich backer can’t see any way the Accrington budget is higher than ours.

 

[Cranfield Sky Blue]

The point about transfers is baloney, if you read the accounts the overall figure from transfer dealings is clearly identified.
We don't know how much is from each deal but the overall numbers are clear and it is a significant proportion of turnover.

As for budget the only option is to compare the numbers against data available from other similar sized clubs.

As for aims and strategy, sure all is conjecture as SISU have a tendency to obfuscate their real aims and objectives.

Got a like for the correct use of obfuscate!

 

[wingy]

Don't forget the young lad to MU too.

 

[oldskyblue58]

last available info on Accrington is to 31/12/2016. Turnover 2.4m Not sure why it would have improved greatly since then

 

[Captain Dart]

Yes, were in a different league, that gives me a lot of reason to believe there's a major difference.
Had you factored in less income from sponsorships? Lower ranking so money from the EFL/FA will be less. Or did you forget about all of That?

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Difference between the already published accounts and the ones shortly to be published, which are all league one.
The Checkatrade income will make a difference in the positive but lower average crowds will take some off..

I've made it clear at least twice in recent posts this season's numbers WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE TILL THIS TIME NEXT YEAR, do keep up.

 

[Captain Dart]

Got a like for the correct use of obfuscate!

Normally I don't like to make myself clear.. gotit.

 

[fernandopartridge]

My point about transfers essentially agrees with you, payments are staged so if players are sold from time to time and do well then income will feed into the transfer dealings over several years from each deal. e.g. if Callum Wilson wins an England cap this season then the Cherries will almost certainly have to pay us a fee.

As for which year, even though the OP is concerned about this years budget I've already said those numbers will not be available till this time next year, some people choose to ignore that and imply I don't understand the publication schedule. The next figures due out shortly are for last season, the relegation season.

and you are right about competitiveness in this league, we should be top 3 not struggling to secure a playoff position.. its embarrassing.

It's all relative though, the club does not get to the end of one financial year and draw a line under it, so last year's and this year's accounts are inextricably linked (and OSB essentially says as much)

 

[rupert_bear]

last available info on Accrington is to 31/12/2016. Turnover 2.4m Not sure why it would have improved greatly since then

As a matter of interest do you know what our turnover that year ?

 

[SkyBlueRuffian]

Well maybe SISU's strategy is simply to take money out till their investment is completely recovered then sell?
Alternatively they have to build value so they can sell for more and that means promotion.

Or maybe the lower we are in the the league structure the less money they have to put in?

 

[oldskyblue58]

As a matter of interest do you know what our turnover that year ?

To 31/05/2016 Turnover 5.4m and player sales 2.5m

 

[SkyBlueRuffian]

Which or whose financial year are you talking about?

The Checkatrade final is in the Otium financial year to 31/05/2017. Those figures are due out by 28/02/2018. The sales of Harries, Thomas & Stevenson are in the Otium financial year to 31/05/2018. The FA cup run is also in 2018 Otium financial year

Monies do not count on the SCMP until received, so have the supposed £1m in transfer fees been received or are they dependent on stage payments etc?

The current SCMP budget will be based on the 2017/18 season, that would probably exclude the Checkatrade monies depending on when received

THe cup monies would have had to cover the period from May to July when the club had no income but had expenses to pay, whilst trying to assemble a squad.

The only budget rankings are on the SCMP budget. Fisher said we had around the 8th best budget at the start of the season, which means at that stage they were projected figures. The ranking is done either half yearly or quarterly so it may have changed.

Which budget are we even discussing because SCMP budget doesn't necessarily mean that's the budget that MR is using it could be more (there are exclusions from the SCMP) it could be less. Some players do not count towards it at all.

Finally all of the income belongs to Otium t/a CCFC it isn't SISU's. It has to be paid in to and accounted for in the Otium t/a CCFC financials. As yet there is no evidence of SISU or ARVO extracting any funds or even any interest payments. Given the expenses to be met there isnt much room to take money out.

Final thought, CCFC match income alone from the league is currently pushing £2m even given the low crowds. Add in the league distributions, the commercial income, the sponsorship, the Cup winnings and match shares, plus the player sales & player add ons and I would guess turnover from all sources could be pushing towards £4m. There are clubs in this division that survive on crowds of less than 5000 (equates to league ticket income under 1.3m), have no cup run winnings, no great commercial income and few sales of stars. Some have even been promoted on such lowly turnovers - take a look at Burton for instance

Whilst we don't have the greatest income I cant help feeling we have recruited light weight players, been unlucky with long term injuries, seen some rank average decision making on the pitch and on the sidelines, and been not up to the job. We should be able to compete consistently at the top of this poor division and not be worrying as to where the next win comes from.

Hear bloody hear. Well explained., it’s a catastrophe that we’re struggling to beat the likes of FGR, Yeovil, Colchester etc, Robins has to answer for this.

 

[stupot07]

I'd also throw in the we will be the only one with a Cat 2 academy which requires us to put in £600k+ pa on top of the FA grant, I imagine most teams in our league will on have a cat 4 academy, so won't have the extra costs we do.

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[fernandopartridge]

Hear bloody hear. Well explained., it’s a catastrophe that we’re struggling to beat the likes of FGR, Yeovil, Colchester etc, Robins has to answer for this.

In the same way he an answer for us beating Notts County, Luton, Stoke, Lincoln, Exeter etc.

 

[Captain Dart]

I'd also throw in the we will be the only one with a Cat 2 academy which requires us to put in £600k+ pa on top of the FA grant, I imagine most teams in our league will on have a cat 4 academy, so won't have the extra costs we do.

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Well given player sales tend to run over £2M p.a. it probably pays for itself and more.

A cat 2 grant is about equal to the club contribution and also compensation payments for players that go to other clubs are higher. I know some clubs have recently downgraded to save money, but were those academies as good?

 

[oldskyblue58]

The Scunthorpe figures to 30/06/2016 provide a break down of income types


Whilst Burton went up in may 2015 from L2 on 2.7m turnover including player sales and from L1 on a turnover of 4.2m

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

This may not be 100% accurate, but I think it is a pretty good idea of where we are budget and spend wise:



You can follow the link to Transfermarkt to see the full table and also look at other leagues. Take a look at Mowbray's Blackburn for example, they are literally the Man City of League 1.

Link: League Two 17/18

 

[fernandopartridge]

Good that you've brought Burton up, the secret isn't necessarily money then is it?

Burton are however the embodiment of long term planning and stability, which means keeping squads together and allowing your manager to build. Plenty on here should think about that.

 

[stupot07]

This may not be 100% accurate, but I think it is a pretty good idea of where we are budget and spend wise:

View attachment 9067

You can follow the link to Transfermarkt to see the full table and also look at other leagues. Take a look at Mowbray's Blackburn for example, they are literally the Man City of League 1.

Link: League Two 17/18

Its missing a number of player values, and some are just random. McNulty and Beavon are both worth £200k? Jodi Jones only £150k, bayliss has no value. Willis only £150k. Ameobi aged 36 is valued at £500k

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[Captain Dart]

I think the budget reflects the ambition of our owners.

 

[SkyBlueRuffian]

In the same way he an answer for us beating Notts County, Luton, Stoke, Lincoln, Exeter etc.

That’s my whole point, we can beat these teams but not the teams lower in the table with weaker players, the mentality is all wrong the way MR sets us up against these teams, basically 6 defenders, his arrogance at saying we are one of the best teams in this league has rubbed off on the players, instead of gearing them up for 46 cup finals.

 

[stupot07]

I think the budget reflects the ambition of our owners.

Not strictly true though is it? The owners could have the ambition for us to be promoted whilst being self sustaining and operating under a tight belt.

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[oldskyblue58]

This is the split of the CCFC 2016 turnover


We should know more early next month when the 2017 figures are available on line

 

[italiahorse]

But Sisu are bad, very bad, so taking the transfer fees for our young starlets is part of a strategy to fleece the club... *eyes roll*

We’ve signed 11 permanent players - all experienced pros at our level. 15 players in total. The club has clearly invested in the team. We still need a few more pieces, but I’m happy with what we’ve done in one summer.

Quantity not quality.
Obvious to me watching them struggle every week.

 

[fernandopartridge]

That’s my whole point, we can beat these teams but not the teams lower in the table with weaker players, the mentality is all wrong the way MR sets us up against these teams, basically 6 defenders, his arrogance at saying we are one of the best teams in this league has rubbed off on the players, instead of gearing them up for 46 cup finals.

I agree with that actually

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

We’ve got to forget about the the SISU thing.

They’re not going to sell up and they’re not going to put money into the club, we are where we’re at with the money the club makes.

That being said, I’d hazard a bet in saying the likes of McNulty, Doyle, McDonald, Willis, Grimmer, JCH, Andreu and Jones are possibly amongst the highest paid players in the league. We should be doing much better then we are, with the budget we have

 

[Captain Dart]

Not strictly true though is it? The owners could have the ambition for us to be promoted whilst being self sustaining and operating under a tight belt.

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Verba, non facta.

 

[oldskyblue58]

We’ve signed 11 permanent players - all experienced pros at our level. 15 players in total. The club has clearly invested in the team. We still need a few more pieces, but I’m happy with what we’ve done in one summer.

True but following the departures at the end of last season they had to sign a lot of players simply to be able to put a team out. Some of those signed have been youngsters with no experience. But did they sign the right type of player? The balance of the squad left from last season would seem to be 6 or 7 experienced players and a whole lot of inexperienced academy players. Are they good enough? Is the squad up for the physicality of L2 every week ..... it doesn't seem to be. I don't doubt their skill at this level but it just all seems light weight physically & mentally

There is no great depth to the squad, despite all the numbers, in the attributes needed for L2

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Its missing a number of player values, and some are just random. McNulty and Beavon are both worth £200k? Jodi Jones only £150k, bayliss has no value. Willis only £150k. Ameobi aged 36 is valued at £500k

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As I said, it is not 100% accurate. Just a guide.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

True but following the departures at the end of last season they had to sign a lot of players simply to be able to put a team out. Some of those signed have been youngsters with no experience. But did they sign the right type of player? The balance of the squad left from last season would seem to be 6 or 7 experienced players and a whole lot of inexperienced academy players. Are they good enough? Is the squad up for the physicality of L2 every week ..... it doesn't seem to be. I don't doubt their skill at this level but it just all seems light weight physically & mentally

There is no great depth to the squad, despite all the numbers, in the attributes needed for L2

The only inexperienced players we signed players in the summer were Nazon, Biamou and Hyam. All of which, I believe were signed as players squad players. Then the two loanees in January are temporary replacements for injuries we have. Most of our signings have experienced promotion from L2, and/or have spent most of their career playing the league above. I broke this down in another thread.

I think our team has become imbalanced and I don't necessarily blame Robins because I think we've been victims of circumstances. With injuries to key players, we now rely on McNulty for a large % of our goals and Doyle is our top scorer from midfield with 3 goals. Let me break this down, in 19 appearances, Jones got 5 goals and 6 assists, we've lost out massively on his goal scoring AND creating which would obviously impact on the team performance. It's fair to say that you could probably project he'd get 10 goals and assists had he stayed fit for the season. The same with Andreu, who scored 15 in 32 apps last season and 2 in 11 for Rotherham in the Championship the season before. Andreu made 5 appearances, Jones 19 so we've had to cope without two key players. Moreover, our whole defence has 1 goal (in the league) between them I think - it's not good enough. This problem is exacerbated now Nazon has gone. The best strikers in the EFL will average about 1 in 3 or 1 in 2, so if you do the maths, you can't rely on them every game because they're not going to score in the majority of games they play. That's assuming they only score singles, and not braces or hat tricks.

Going forward, I think we should introduce Clarke-Harris into the starting lineup because Biamou, whilst being quite influential, isn't getting enough goals and we're too top-heavy with our goal distribution at this point in the season. Maybe Reid too? But that'd mean replacing Shipley who's on 2 goals in midfield. It's clear for all to see we haven't really found a way to fill the void left by Jones on that right wing in particular.

 

[Hobo]

I think the budget reflects the ambition of our owners.

No the budget is a projection of what the expected outgoings will be against what the expected income will be and ideally see the club running at a profit or at least breaking even.

 

[Captain Dart]

No the budget is a projection of what the expected outgoings will be against what the expected income will be and ideally see the club running at a profit or at least breaking even.

So you agree with me even if you don't realise it.