No, if you have got money and/ or a stable job. It is if you are poor or just about managing. Leavers will be held to account if this goes pear shaped.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (28 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
No, if you have got money and/ or a stable job. It is if you are poor or just about managing. Leavers will be held to account if this goes pear shaped.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Let's hope so. They'll deserve it.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Who's pissed on your chips?
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Everyone who voted to leave the EU.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
17.4 million people.
Yes, you can blame the red bus, right wing propaganda, Nigel Farage...
Don't you think though, if 17.4 million people vote for something, then maybe, just maybe something is wrong with the EU?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s the fault of those who didn’t vote for it apparently not those who did. Them foundations were laid almost as soon as the result was known.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Some things are definitely wrong with the EU. It doesn’t mean leaving is the answer.
No. Something may be wrong with the people passing off their nationalistic narrative. On the one hand we are protected by environmental and labour laws from the EU. On the other hand the rich and powerful newspaper owners and hedge fund owners don’t like this ‚red tape‘ and would rather their investments and offshore cash would be protected by a right wing Tory government. John Major is a centrist in comparison. Maggie Thatcher is even more „liberal“ with regard to the EU than, say, Farage oder Rees Mogg. Just look at the people telling you that they are giving you sovereignty and blue passports and ask yourself why, these wealthy people who live on a different planet to us, would give a toss about us?
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
If the EU wasn't so intransigent that would be reasonable, but they resist reform to improve democracy, for the most part that's why I voted leave.
skyblueinBaku
Well-Known Member
Sorry I spoiled your chips, Torchy!
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
The democracy argument is surely nonsense while the very decisions to leave have to be authorised by an unelected head of state and an unelected higher chamber.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
So the EU is absolutely perfect?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Maybe you are right, but if they are unable to reform then what would you suggest?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Not leaving. They were willing to meet Cameron in areas of reform so to say that they won’t reform is nonsense. They may not have been willing at that moment in time to reform as quickly or as far as you would wanted but the logical, responsible and grownup thing to do would have been to remain and vote in competent MEP’s to lobby and change consensus. That’s democracy. Spitting your dummy out and running of into oblivion isn’t addressing the issue.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Fishermen not happy either Gove shares fishing deal 'disappointment'
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
What might have focussed minds was a 'leave unless reform' or 'stay with reform' option on the referendum.
Of course Cameron in his wisdom decided the entire spectrum of opinion could be harnessed in a yes/no.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm not blaming ordinary people as such, it's just their generation who happens to have had the best of a lot of things and decided the pull the draw bridge up.
Take your point and agree, however, even if the population had stood still the amount of affordable housing has dropped considerably and would be insufficient.
The ultimate problem is that the country is now run on credit which is mostly based on inflated asset values, completely unsustainable and no government of the last 30 years wants to do anything about it.
No. Needs a lot of reform.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
With no consensus on what leave actually meant. There should have been a second referendum of the back of a leave vote of leave but remain in the single market or the so called hard brexit.
If that have had been the choice I actually would have given serious consideration to voting leave so I could then vote remain in the single market and gamble on remaining in the single market winning. Not saying I would have voted leave but like I say I would have given it serious consideration.
I suspect that’s why Cameron didn’t offer that. I suspect there would have been a clear majority vote leave rather than the narrow victory we ended up with. Instead he risked the major fuck up we have been left with. It started with no clear direction and that is how it will end. A second referendum on the type of brexit could have A) cleared a majority of the uncertainty up B) seen the negotiations a lot clear cut and C) seen us a lot further down the road than we currently are. Might have also not convinced May to call an early election which has only further complicated things.
That is not true. Juncker has put suggestions on improving democracy and so have others. Basically the EU is controlled to a large extent by the Europeans Council of EU member government Ministers, but people have suggested giving more power to MEPs who are directly elected to the parliament as opposed to ministers appointed by governments. The U.K. should be in there pushing for such reforms instead of retreating from the EU.
Astute
Well-Known Member
But Barnier refused to talk to Cameron just before the vote. And Barnier then informed everyone that there would not be the meeting Camerin said there would be on looking at changing a thing or two. It was their way or nothing.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
17.4M. That's right, but not the majority. 48% voted to remain and then there was 23% who didn't bother at all.
Scary there are 17.4M racists and xenophobes in the UK.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Cameron. The biggest prick of all. There was only a vote in the first place because he wanted to silence a handful of fools in his own party.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Again, you might be right. I'm glad we are starting to have some consensus on here at least.
As I've said before, there are many reasons why people voted to leave and one of them is that they feel the EU is beyond reform. They might have offered something to Cameron, but in a lot of people's eyes that wasn't near enough. I think a lot of people who voted felt this would be the only opportunity they would ever have to make a change, they saw a chance and they took it. Even though many would disagree with that choice I don't think you can blame voters for taking that opportunity.
Maybe there should never have been a vote, but if even Mart is saying the EU isn't perfect then you know that some changes probably need to be made. The sad thing is throughout this, I have barely seen anyone blame the EU for the vote leave winning. At the end of the day, if they were doing good beyond reasonable doubt in the majority of areas common sense would have prevailed and remain would have won without question.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Astute
Well-Known Member
The EU has decimated our fishing industry. And they will hold onto the power they have over it for as long as they can.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
My missus is foreign and I voted leave. Do you really think I am going to send her to the gas chamber because she burned the dinner last week?
Behave yourself.
Astute
Well-Known Member
But they refused to let us have what would help us just before the vote.
Astute
Well-Known Member
He tried to buy votes by saying if he won there would be a referendum.
What did we ask for? End of free movement? As regards benefit tourism, there is a lot of support for ending that. Stricter rules for staying longer than 3 months. These are up for debate.
How much of our fish is exported to the EU?
„Their way“? We are a part of „they“ and we wanted such things as the single market. It is not them and us at the moment. We were part of the rule making and we have to abide the rules of the single market.
„Common Sense“ is a very vague term. Things that have been discussed, amended, voted on and ratified are usually more reasoned than what people like to call „common sense“. Yes, the EU is not perfect, nor is the U.K., but there are many advantages to remaining in the EU and not many for leaving. Blue passports and sovereignty are little recompense for a union of countries cooperating with each politically and economically.... as we will soon be finding out.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Astute
Well-Known Member
Are you pretending you don't know what has happened to our fishing industry?