The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (45 Viewers)

[Astute]

„Common Sense“ is a very vague term. Things that have been discussed, amended, voted on and ratified are usually more reasoned than what people like to call „common sense“. Yes, the EU is not perfect, nor is the U.K., but there are many advantages to remaining in the EU and not many for leaving. Blue passports and sovereignty are little recompense for a union of countries cooperating with each politically and economically.... as we will soon be finding out.

Your views are so biased that they are laughable.

How about the money that we pay into the EU each year? You say that it is a small amount. But when someone says that 3 years payments will take us 45 years to pay it is suddenly a massive amount.

The only benefit is a blue passport? Yeah OK.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

If the EU wasn't so intransigent that would be reasonable, but they resist reform to improve democracy, for the most part that's why I voted leave.

Look at what the Tories did when the LDs tried to improve our democracy.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

How many Brexiters here are opposed to Scottish independence?

 

[skyblueinBaku]

Scary there are 17.4M racists and xenophobes in the UK.

I usually think that you are a sensible,level headed poster Torchy, but that statement is extremely stupid.

 

[martcov]

Your views are so biased that they are laughable.

How about the money that we pay into the EU each year? You say that it is a small amount. But when someone says that 3 years payments will take us 45 years to pay it is suddenly a massive amount.

The only benefit is a blue passport? Yeah OK.

It is a small as a % of gdp. I have no idea as to how 30bn takes 45 years. Maybe it’s like a mortgage where you pay a large portion of interest in your first payments? Don’t know. What are the known benefits, apart from the blue passports? We have admitted we cannot control some of our borders, we have no solution to the land border in Ireland, we have no favourable trade deals and Trump seems intent on a trade war which could effect world trade, we are asking our EU partners to pool their sovereignty by standing with us against Putin, we are recruiting thousands of bureaucrats to replace the Eurcrats in the EU agencies. Where are the unicorns we were promised?

 

[torchomatic]

I usually think that you are a sensible,level headed poster Torchy, but that statement is extremely stupid.

Maybe. Let's say 10M of them are racists and xenophobes then.

 

[oakey]

Maybe this should be in the things that annoy you thread but 'baby boomer' is a misnomer. It covers 1945-1964.
There is really no comparison between the experience of those born in 1945 with those born in 1964. I know since I have cousins born in those years. Most pensioners were born before 1945 and it is they who have benefitted most IMO from the gains that are ascribed to 'baby boomers'. NHS and rest of welfare state, affordable housing, rising living standards etc.
Sorry to be pedantic but as a late baby boomer myself I get sick of being bracketed in with gains that happened before I was able to make use of them and have now been removed. Note the latest baby boomers 1961-1964 are a lot worse off than the early baby boomers, if you accept the narrative anyway. Certainly they will retire much later, 5 years on average.

 

[martcov]

Article 32 disappears....

Now what? British citizens rights missed out of the „deal“.

Confusion as Article 32 regulating free movement for British citizens vanishes from new Brexit agreement

 

[skyblueinBaku]

Maybe. Let's say 10M of them are racists and xenophobes then.

I'd say it's more like 10%, not 10M.

 

[Astute]

How many Brexiters here are opposed to Scottish independence?

What do you class as a Brexiter?

I didn't vote to leave. I think I would be better off staying in although I think my kids will be better off with us leaving. Yes I said think. Nobody knows anything yet. It is all guesswork until it is all finalised.

The majority spoke. Nearly 2m more voted leave than remain. I couldn't bring myself to be a remoaner. We need to look forward and get the best deal. All this infighting doesn't help with the negotiations. They will just keep the pressure on hoping in some way we stay in. They need our money. They don't want to make cuts. Especially to their pensions that costs billions.

I am not against Scottish independence. But the majority in Scotland are. And we have had most of their oil money.

 

[Astute]

Article 32 disappears....

Now what? British citizens rights missed out of the „deal“.

Confusion as Article 32 regulating free movement for British citizens vanishes from new Brexit agreement

There is as much chance of Brits getting kicked out of EU countries as those here getting removed. Absolutely none.

 

[oakey]

One thing is certain if Brexit turns out to be a disaster those who voted Leave will not take any blame. It will be the fault of,
The nasty foreigners, EU
The nasty foreigners, who will continue to migrate to U.K.
The remainers for having sabotaged the deal in some way.
The politicians who promised and didn't deliver.
The MSM.

Any or all of the above and this is why referendums are a very bad idea because nobody carries the can.
It will be argued over bitterly for a generation or more and we will be divided and fractious for the foreseeable future, and that's regardless of whether it turns out well or badly.

 

[Astute]

It is a small as a % of gdp. I have no idea as to how 30bn takes 45 years. Maybe it’s like a mortgage where you pay a large portion of interest in your first payments? Don’t know. What are the known benefits, apart from the blue passports? We have admitted we cannot control some of our borders, we have no solution to the land border in Ireland, we have no favourable trade deals and Trump seems intent on a trade war which could effect world trade, we are asking our EU partners to pool their sovereignty by standing with us against Putin, we are recruiting thousands of bureaucrats to replace the Eurcrats in the EU agencies. Where are the unicorns we were promised?

Planning for the future knowing nobody can force rules upon you like the EU does is a big one for me.

 

[Grendel]

17.4M. That's right, but not the majority. 48% voted to remain and then there was 23% who didn't bother at all.

Scary there are 17.4M racists and xenophobes in the UK.

I’m very surprised that you finally admit the biggest anti European members of Parliament Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are racists.

Also says a lot about the only party in British political history that had a manifesto pledge to leave the EU

 

[Astute]

I’m very surprised that you finally admit the biggest anti European members of Parliament Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are racists.

Also says a lot about the only party in British political history that had a manifesto pledge to leave the EU

That is one thing that makes me laugh. The biggest Corbyn defenders are normally those who moan the most about us leaving the EU. And Corbyn always wanted to leave the EU.

 

[martcov]

Planning for the future knowing nobody can force rules upon you like the EU does is a big one for me.

Well you are in for a great disappointment. Trade rules and work permit rules will apply with whoever you are trading with. Apart from that, which rules are forced on you which cause you personally any problems? Guaranteed paid holidays, freedom of movement, working hours, environmental rules? Which rights has the EU denied you which the UK gave you?

 

[Astute]

Well you are in for a great disappointment. Trade rules and work permit rules will apply with whoever you are trading with. Apart from that, which rules are forced on you which cause you personally any problems? Guaranteed paid holidays, freedom of movement, working hours, environmental rules? Which rights has the EU denied you which the UK gave you?

What are you going on about?

Is freedom of movement as good as what you make out? I suppose nobody in the UK is homeless because millions from the EU have been able to come and live here and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What are you going on about?

Is freedom of movement as good as what you make out? I suppose nobody in the UK is homeless because millions from the EU have been able to come and live here and there is nothing we can do about it.

You keep repeating this absolute simplistic nonsense.

The reason people are homeless is *not* because of immigrants. Immigration is a net *contributor* to the public purse. If the government then chooses to spend the money in other areas, that is *not* the problem of immigrants.

But you'll no doubt carry on with this ridiculous untrue assertion.

Let's blame the immigrants, they're an easy target eh...

 

[Astute]

You keep repeating this absolute simplistic nonsense.

The reason people are homeless is *not* because of immigrants. Immigration is a net *contributor* to the public purse. If the government then chooses to spend the money in other areas, that is *not* the problem of immigrants.

But you'll no doubt carry on with this ridiculous untrue assertion.

Let's blame the immigrants, they're an easy target eh...

So immigrants don't live in houses?

Yes Labour didn't build enough houses. The Tories didn't build enough houses. They also didn't build enough hospitals, schools, trained enough doctors, nurses, dentists.

I have nothing against people coming here to live. But we need to catch up with our population explosion before millions more come here.

 

[martcov]

What are you going on about?

Is freedom of movement as good as what you make out? I suppose nobody in the UK is homeless because millions from the EU have been able to come and live here and there is nothing we can do about it.

Yes. Freedom of movement is great. No one else is complaining about it. Just the UK. I suspect the NHS, schools and housing have been neglected because of austerity.

 

[martcov]

So immigrants don't live in houses?

Yes Labour didn't build enough houses. The Tories didn't build enough houses. They also didn't build enough hospitals, schools, trained enough doctors, nurses, dentists.

I have nothing against people coming here to live. But we need to catch up with our population explosion before millions more come here.

Millions more will not be coming whatever happens. The Eurozone is picking up and there is a limit to how many people wish to emigrate. With the pound falling against the Euro there will be less incentive to come to the UK.

 

[Sick Boy]

I wonder when Britain's might and all of those cards being held are going to be revealed?

 

[Sick Boy]

Millions more will not be coming whatever happens. The Eurozone is picking up and there is a limit to how many people wish to emigrate. With the pound falling against the Euro there will be less incentive to come to the UK.

Oh well, it'll just get made up by those from outside of the EU willing to work for even less.

 

[martcov]

I wonder when Britain's might and all of those cards being held are going to be revealed?

You just have to see the comments like „money isn’t everything“ and compare them with „sailing into a glorious sunset“ and „global Britain“ to see that expectations are going down and the excuses are being prepared. The Irish question has really showed the naivety of Brexit voters and the trade off with fishing rights is becoming clear.

The uncertainty caused by the clown in the USA is going to cause problems throughout the world. Time actually to pool sovereignty with European countries to oppose protectionism or offer an answer to Trump.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

If there's one thing that keeps surfacing, it's that many people believe leaving the EU is stupid because we can't possibly survive without them.

If that's true (up for debate), then how on earth did we get into that position? If we are so reliant on the EU then that's surely not a very good situation we've let ourselves get into is it?

Not trying to be provocative at all, just curious.

If other countries survive fine out of the EU, surely the argument that we can't is single handedly only down to the fact we're trying to leave rather than actually not being a part of it at all.

This is the thing. I'll happily hold my hands up in 20 years time if we're in the shit, but only on the condition that we actually give Brexit a proper go first. With our current government and people not happy with the vote, I don't feel we will get that chance.

 

[Kingokings204]

How many Brexiters here are opposed to Scottish independence?

They don’t want independence sadly so it’s not a valid question. .

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They don’t want independence sadly so it’s not a valid question. .

OK let's suppose the polls were in favour.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Planning for the future knowing nobody can force rules upon you like the EU does is a big one for me.

Name 3 rules you are looking forward to not being forced upon you

 

[Kingokings204]

Maybe. Let's say 10M of them are racists and xenophobes then.

Simply bang out of order. It was a democratic vote and the biggest in our proud history and your response is “17.4m people are racists”

Dear oh dear.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Simply bang out of order. It was a democratic vote and the biggest in our proud history and your response is “17.4m people are racists”

Dear oh dear.

If you subscribe to the 'everyone knew what they were voting for' and given there is a certain racist undercurrent that runs in some people and motivated their vote...

Unless, of course, there were many different things that people were voting for. Maybe, just maybe...

 

[Grendel]

Yes. Freedom of movement is great. No one else is complaining about it. Just the UK. I suspect the NHS, schools and housing have been neglected because of austerity.

That’s hog wash isn’t it

Dutch minister urges free movement reform

 

[Grendel]

If you subscribe to the 'everyone knew what they were voting for' and given there is a certain racist undercurrent that runs in some people and motivated their vote...

Unless, of course, there were many different things that people were voting for. Maybe, just maybe...

Again if what you say is true Vince Cable will win the general election with a thumping majority next time round.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Again if what you say is true Vince Cable will win the general election with a thumping majority next time round.

Again, you pitch and swerve like a good'un, whilst spectacularly failing to understand the point, be it witting or unwitting.

 

[Kingokings204]

Name 3 rules you are looking forward to not being forced upon you

1. Fisheries as the EU have completely destroyed us.

2. Freedom of movement as uncontrolled immigration has lowered wages for the average Joe and put massive strain on housing and public services to breaking point.

3. Leave the customs union as it’s a protectionist racket that makes the goods such as clothes, shoes, sanitary products and fruit and veg more expensive for the poorest in society who need those products most.

Next

 

[martcov]

If there's one thing that keeps surfacing, it's that many people believe leaving the EU is stupid because we can't possibly survive without them.

If that's true (up for debate), then how on earth did we get into that position? If we are so reliant on the EU then that's surely not a very good situation we've let ourselves get into is it?

Not trying to be provocative at all, just curious.

If other countries survive fine out of the EU, surely the argument that we can't is single handedly only down to the fact we're trying to leave rather than actually not being a part of it at all.

This is the thing. I'll happily hold my hands up in 20 years time if we're in the shit, but only on the condition that we actually give Brexit a proper go first. With our current government and people not happy with the vote, I don't feel we will get that chance.

Of course we can survive outside the EU. The quality of survival is the question. If we try it for 20 years and we end up being worse off... as seems likely at this moment in time.... how can we explain that to our children? Sorry about that people? Oh, pity about the GFA..... sorry that we have let ourselves be fxxked by the USA for 20 years...?