The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (251 Viewers)

[Astute]

The notion that any political party would remove any if the workers rights legislation is ludicrous particularly as all those parties that believe in equality of wealth distribution and worker empowerment want to leave the EU

But it is mud to throw at those who can see a few good things that might come from leaving the EU.

As usual we don't agree on the subject. I would prefer us to stay in the EU. But you talk more sense than most who want to stay in.

 

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[Sick Boy]

I would prefer us to stay in the EU.

You are more confusing than my girlfriend and she's half mad!

 

[Astute]

You are more confusing than my girlfriend and she's half mad!

Why is that?

As I have said before plenty of times I have relatives living in France. My retirement plans are to tour Europe when not at games. I plan to retire in less than 10 years when my 8 and 9 year olds are 18 and 19. I travel frequently to the EU. I'm even going again straight after we win at Wembley.

But there are possible good points about leaving. Just like there are possible good points about staying in.

The problem is that we won't know what is good or bad until the deal is done. And we won't know what is good or bad until reality hits home.

But what we do have on here is guesses which are made out to be certainties. There are no certainties. I am not even sure 100% that we will leave.

What is confusing about that?

All I try to do is put a balanced debate together. But some don't want a debate. All they want is their version and nothing else.

 

[wingy]

I'm just going to interject here to say bravo to Donald Tusk for saying how it is when dealing with Trumps USA .
Carry on lads.

 

[martcov]

It has been enough on here many times before. Why would you mention the party of someones choice? It makes no difference if it is someone arguing the point on remaining.

Tony voted UKIP. But you never bring that up.

Grendel implied that UKIP is racist and branded Tony with it as he voted UKIP. Once.

The party being anti EU and your UKIP hero claiming that Brexit is good. That’s the connection. Race doesn’t come into in this case.

 

[Astute]

Grendel implied that UKIP is racist and branded Tony with it as he voted UKIP. Once.

The party being anti EU and your UKIP hero claiming that Brexit is good. That’s the connection. Race doesn’t come into in this case.

My UKIP hero?

Bit of a silly comment.

 

[martcov]

No. You are doing the normal and trying to make everything sound as bad as you can without any evidence for what you ate saying.

He just posted evidence. Why are we not adapting human rights guarantees from the EU? Anyone who has no power should be fighting for guarantees to stay anchored in law. Nothing to do with pro or anti EU.

 

[martcov]

My UKIP hero?

Bit of a silly comment.

You just built him up as infallible and he did want to lead UKIP.

 

[martcov]

So workers rights are not already secure and you are not making up things again?

Workers‘ right are not secure.

 

[martcov]

Why is that?

As I have said before plenty of times I have relatives living in France. My retirement plans are to tour Europe when not at games. I plan to retire in less than 10 years when my 8 and 9 year olds are 18 and 19. I travel frequently to the EU. I'm even going again straight after we win at Wembley.

But there are possible good points about leaving. Just like there are possible good points about staying in.

The problem is that we won't know what is good or bad until the deal is done. And we won't know what is good or bad until reality hits home.

But what we do have on here is guesses which are made out to be certainties. There are no certainties. I am not even sure 100% that we will leave.

What is confusing about that?

All I try to do is put a balanced debate together. But some don't want a debate. All they want is their version and nothing else.

It’s not balanced.I just pointed out that we as mere citizens should agree that workers‘/ citizens‘ rights should remain protected by law in or out of the EU. You don’t seem bothered that the Tories want the Charter scrapped by Brexit. Is it because the EU passed the Charter?

 

[skybluetony176]

He just posted evidence. Why are we not adapting human rights guarantees from the EU? Anyone who has no power should be fighting for guarantees to stay anchored in law. Nothing to do with pro or anti EU.

It’s also worth pointing out that a lot if not most U.K. law on things like workers rights is there to prop up EU law. If we’re not going to adopt the European human rights charter surely it’s common sense to question what’s going to happen to current laws in this area once we leave. Indeed it could prove dangerous not to. We’ve already seen our government try to ignore the rights of parliamentary sovereignty what makes people confident that they won’t try to erode our individual rights?

 

[martcov]

The notion that any political party would remove any if the workers rights legislation is ludicrous particularly as all those parties that believe in equality of wealth distribution and worker empowerment want to leave the EU

Haha. The whole leave argument from the hedge fund owners like Mogg and Eton elites like BoJo is to do away with pesky regulations. Where do think they will start, animal welfare, environment, tax or workers‘ rights? Not adapting the European Charter is a good start to potentially attack workers‘ rights. Why not adopt it, unless of course the Tory government has plans to water it down?

 

[martcov]

It’s also worth pointing out that a lot if not most U.K. law on things like workers rights is there to prop up EU law. If we’re not going to adopt the European human rights charter surely it’s common sense to question what’s going to happen to current laws in this area once we leave. Indeed it could prove dangerous not to. We’ve already seen our government try to ignore the rights of parliamentary sovereignty what makes people confident that they won’t try to erode our individual rights?

Astute keeps pointing out people who are wealthy and stand to gain a lot by leaving. I am more worried about the vast majority who have no financial or political clout being betrayed by populists. Has happened before in history.

 

[Astute]

He just posted evidence. Why are we not adapting human rights guarantees from the EU? Anyone who has no power should be fighting for guarantees to stay anchored in law. Nothing to do with pro or anti EU.

Twisted words there yet again.

The wording is why don't we keep the EU charter. Answer is because we won't be in the EU. We will be able to make our own laws and regulations. And where is tge evidence that anything will be downgraded?

There isn't any. But people looking for something will tell you differently.

 

[Astute]

You just built him up as infallible and he did want to lead UKIP.

Infallible?

The richest person in the UK is self made. He knows how business works. And he sees a giid future out of the EU. So those who look for something find something. Nothing unusual here.

 

[Astute]

Workers‘ right are not secure.

In what way?

So what has been said? Nothing. But there is a point to be made.

 

[Grendel]

Haha. The whole leave argument from the hedge fund owners like Mogg and Eton elites like BoJo is to do away with pesky regulations. Where do think they will start, animal welfare, environment, tax or workers‘ rights? Not adapting the European Charter is a good start to potentially attack workers‘ rights. Why not adopt it, unless of course the Tory government has plans to water it down?

Why do all socialists parties want to leave the European Union?

Explain.

 

[Astute]

It’s not balanced.I just pointed out that we as mere citizens should agree that workers‘/ citizens‘ rights should remain protected by law in or out of the EU. You don’t seem bothered that the Tories want the Charter scrapped by Brexit. Is it because the EU passed the Charter?

Scrapped?

Same question but using different words.

If we are not in the EU we will have UK laws and regulations. If the Tories tried to scrap wirkers rights Labour would get straight in. Even if Corbyn was still leader. And they know it.

 

[Astute]

Astute keeps pointing out people who are wealthy and stand to gain a lot by leaving. I am more worried about the vast majority who have no financial or political clout being betrayed by populists. Has happened before in history.

Do I?

That is what you and others are saying. And then you say you don't twist things

 

[Astute]

It’s also worth pointing out that a lot if not most U.K. law on things like workers rights is there to prop up EU law. If we’re not going to adopt the European human rights charter surely it’s common sense to question what’s going to happen to current laws in this area once we leave. Indeed it could prove dangerous not to. We’ve already seen our government try to ignore the rights of parliamentary sovereignty what makes people confident that they won’t try to erode our individual rights?

To question yes. But not to make out that you know. Because nobody knows anything.

Unless you are one of those that makes out we will crash and burn as soon as we leave. Then you know everything.

 

[skybluetony176]

Twisted words there yet again.

The wording is why don't we keep the EU charter. Answer is because we won't be in the EU. We will be able to make our own laws and regulations. And where is tge evidence that anything will be downgraded?

There isn't any. But people looking for something will tell you differently.

Adopting EU law into U.K. law is part of the withdrawal bill so no, the answer isn’t because we won’t be in the EU. If you’d read the article that Mart linked (which you clearly didn’t) it tells you that. It also tells you that the government chose to exclude the charter and labour tried to reinstate it. So the question now comes back on you. Where is the evidence that anything won’t be downgraded? You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.

 

[skybluetony176]

To question yes. But not to make out that you know. Because nobody knows anything.

Unless you are one of those that makes out we will crash and burn as soon as we leave. Then you know everything.

I haven’t made out I know. In fact I specifically said I wouldn’t pass judgment on whatever replaces it until I know what it is on the previous page (time of 3.22pm) of this thread. You actually acknowledged that in reply, although you now seem to have forgotten I said it in the first place.

 

[Astute]

Adopting EU law into U.K. law is part of the withdrawal bill so no, the answer isn’t because we won’t be in the EU. If you’d read the article that Mart linked (which you clearly didn’t) it tells you that. It also tells you that the government chose excluded the charter and labour tried to reinstate it. So the question now comes back on you. Where is the evidence that anything won’t be downgraded. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.

Not at all. I look at everything with an open mind.

Labour always try to stop the Tories. The Tories always try to stop Labour. We have a Tory leader who wants to stay in the EU taking us out. We have a Labour leader who wants out of the EU trying to make it hard for the Tories to take us out.

Politics has become an absolute joke.

 

[skybluetony176]

Not at all. I look at everything with an open mind.

Labour always try to stop the Tories. The Tories always try to stop Labour. We have a Tory leader who wants to stay in the EU taking us out. We have a Labour leader who wants out of the EU trying to make it hard for the Tories to take us out.

Politics has become an absolute joke.

Which has nothing to do with the statement you made that I was replying to. You said “Answer is because we won't be in the EU” that statement is fundamentally wrong. That’s the point I was making. If you think that the Labour Party trying to ensure that our rights are being maintained is doing it just to make things hard for the Tories I repeat what I said to you earlier. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.

 

[Astute]

Which has nothing to do with the statement you made that I was replying to. You said “Answer is because we won't be in the EU” that statement is fundamentally wrong. That’s the point I was making. If you think that the Labour Party trying to ensure that our rights are being maintained is doing it just to make things hard for the Tories I repeat what I said to you earlier. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.

You did well to put my comment to this.

An EU charter is just that. We need our own version. Not something set up for nearly 30 countries of all types. And yes I don't trust politicians.

 

[martcov]

Why do all socialists parties want to leave the European Union?

Explain.

Don’t know, but ours doesn’t ( SPD). Schultz wants to strengthen the EU Parliament and he is possibly the lead candidate in the European elections next year for the SPD.

 

[martcov]

Scrapped?

Same question but using different words.

If we are not in the EU we will have UK laws and regulations. If the Tories tried to scrap wirkers rights Labour would get straight in. Even if Corbyn was still leader. And they know it.

Why scrap something just for the sake of it. We will absorb loads of EU laws and trading regulations. Why reject the Charter?

 

[martcov]

Not at all. I look at everything with an open mind.

Labour always try to stop the Tories. The Tories always try to stop Labour. We have a Tory leader who wants to stay in the EU taking us out. We have a Labour leader who wants out of the EU trying to make it hard for the Tories to take us out.

Politics has become an absolute joke.

I agree that the referendum has created a joke situation.

 

[martcov]

You did well to put my comment to this.

An EU charter is just that. We need our own version. Not something set up for nearly 30 countries of all types. And yes I don't trust politicians.

Why? Why not keep the EU Charter and if we want more protections, just add to it. If you reject something that was good enough for 28 countries, then you have to start the whole process and debate again with no guarantee of obtaining what we already have.

 

[martcov]

Which has nothing to do with the statement you made that I was replying to. You said “Answer is because we won't be in the EU” that statement is fundamentally wrong. That’s the point I was making. If you think that the Labour Party trying to ensure that our rights are being maintained is doing it just to make things hard for the Tories I repeat what I said to you earlier. You’re in danger of sleep walking into losing your own rights here and you seem willing to let the government do it with your blessing.

Yes, it is the same as the leavers who want to drop out of the Eurovision because they believe the EU loathes us and EU countries will never vote for our song. The EU Charter would be ok if we rubbed out EU and called it „The Great British Charter of Fundamental Rights“. Then they would say we have regained control and passed our sovereign law.

 

[Astute]

Why scrap something just for the sake of it. We will absorb loads of EU laws and trading regulations. Why reject the Charter?

What would be best. Something set up for nearly 30 countries or something set up specifically for us?

 

[martcov]

To question yes. But not to make out that you know. Because nobody knows anything.

Unless you are one of those that makes out we will crash and burn as soon as we leave. Then you know everything.

We can be worse off without crashing and burning, and we could be same as before, but as long as we are not significantly better off after all this division and uncertainty, then the whole exercise has been a waste of time and has damaged and divided the country for years to come unnecessarily.

 

[Astute]

I agree that the referendum has created a joke situation.

Correct. Some people can't handle not getting the result they expect or wanted.

 

[martcov]

What would be best. Something set up for nearly 30 countries or something set up specifically for us?

Something debated, researched and passed by 28 countries obviously. Far more ideas and input. If we want, we could always add to it. I don’t trust people who want to reject existing rights.

 

[Astute]

Why? Why not keep the EU Charter and if we want more protections, just add to it. If you reject something that was good enough for 28 countries, then you have to start the whole process and debate again with no guarantee of obtaining what we already have.

I want a UK charter. Something to take us forward after leaving.

No cherry picking.