The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

Discussion in 'Off Topic Chat' started by jimmyhillsfanclub, Jun 8, 2016.

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As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
  1. Remain

    23 vote(s)
    37.1%
  2. Leave

    35 vote(s)
    56.5%
  3. Undecided

    3 vote(s)
    4.8%
  4. Not registered or not intention to vote

    1 vote(s)
    1.6%
  1. martcov

    martcov Well-Known Member

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    Having the richest man in Britain as role model is strange for a leaver. Before it was all about decent ordinary folk against the wealthy elite. Now that it appears to be hitting the rocks, it is „well rich people say it is good, so it mus be good for decent ordinary folk“..
     
  2. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Of course.

    Grangemouth was losing serious money. He took over the business that included Grangemouth. He offered to put hundreds of millions of pounds in to save the plant and save jobs. But he also needed help from the workforce to make changes. When the workers refused was he just supposed to keep a loss making business going to keep the workers happy? In the end they agreed with the union to make sime changes. Now their jobs are secure.

    Just like what is going on with the French train drivers right now.

    French train services severely disrupted as unions step up strike action
     
  3. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    More like I have more trust in someone who runs very profitable multinational companies that we can do very well after leaving the EU than someone who lives in Germany that doesn't run multinational companies that says rhe opposite.
     
  4. martcov

    martcov Well-Known Member

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    The interests of multinational companies are not necessarily the same as those of „decent ordinary folk“. He obviously knows about making huge sums of money. Fair play to him.

    Deregulation, less workers‘ rights, tax havens, less trade union power and in particular less environmental rules are better for his business.

    I see his point, but as I am one of the 99%, I tend to look at it from our point of view.

    We can, in that sense, both be right. Brexit could be great for his business and similar businesses, whilst at the same time bad for me and other poorer people who don’t have the acumen for big business. Small businesses already have it hard against multinationals and cannot run Swiss holding companies or employ top accountants.

    So, I will stick to saying Brexit is bad from our point of view, whilst you fawn over one of the few that will benefit from Brexit by being very rich and a multinational operator.
     
  5. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    So where is the evidence of deregulation of workers rights after Brexit?

    Yes there is none. But it seems your aim to try and discredit anyone who says they predict we will do well after Brexit. You even tried to discredit a financial professor who had always predicted all upturns and downturns for over 30 years....even when the ones you like to quote got it wrong each time.
     
  6. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Was it losing money or was it clever accounting to paint that picture? I know you won’t read but here’s an interesting article on it Grangemouth bailout: Did Ineos screw the taxpayer of £134million?
     
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  7. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Looks like?

    Looks like they never paid loans back to the parent company. That meant they made a small profit.

    I could be wrong. You don't know what is going on. And neither does the bloke you quoted. He thinks this and thinks that. He didn't get to see the books. But he is very knowledgeable on the subject.

    And he is extremely pro EU

    I have only one instinct on the EU, and it is that we must stay
     
  8. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    He’s an accountant using published accounts. He does know what he’s going on about.
     
  9. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Published accounts don't show everything.

    He doesn't say he knows. But like I said he does know what he is talking about. But where I work investment is taken from profits. If more investment is made than profit is made on paper it is a loss. So it depends what angle you take it from.

    How about his reasons for staying in the EU?
     
  10. martcov

    martcov Well-Known Member

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    Was the financial guy the one who stood for UKIP leadership?
     
  11. martcov

    martcov Well-Known Member

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  12. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Are you trying to say that we will lose the freedom of speech, gay people will lose all rights and whatever else it says?

    Yet again I do not trust politicians from any party. But there are things that will not be forgiven. And taking rights away from the British public is a major one.

    You need to understand that out means out. And it doesn't matter if you like it or not. It isn't all about Mart of Germany. It is the UK as a whole. The old news you have brought up isn't law here. It is an EU thing. Why would we keep EU regulations when we won't be in the EU? We are one of the best for freedom of speech. Gay people have a better life here than in many countries of the EU. So is it really because of the EU?
     
  13. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Is this a racist dig?

    He says we will do better outside the EU. He has got our economy right for over 30 years. The so called experts have got it wrong several times during this time. He felt so strongly about getting out of the EU that he used them so his voice could be heard. A few of you looked at mud to throw but couldn't find anything to stick.

    UKIP was about getting out of the EU. Look at how many people voted for them since we voted out of the EU. They now have no use as a political party. But you try and make out that you can use them as a point scorer.
     
  14. martcov

    martcov Well-Known Member

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    A charter of fundamental rights is not the same as some EU regulations e.g. for the curvature of bananas. The Lords want us to keep it. It would be a safeguard should people try to remove or change rights in the Charter. I can’t think why we should not keep the positive things of the EU. Just spite or because it has „European“ in the title?
     
  15. martcov

    martcov Well-Known Member

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    How can it be racist to mention someone’s political affiliation?
     
  16. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    It also includes things like workers rights. Mmmm. Now which apparent champion of the people doesn’t like to negotiate with unions threatening to close workplaces down instead?
     
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  17. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Astute should know the answer to this having repeatedly labelled someone a racist in various forms including a fucking racist for voting UKIP on this very thread not so long ago.
     
  18. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    It has been enough on here many times before. Why would you mention the party of someones choice? It makes no difference if it is someone arguing the point on remaining.

    Tony voted UKIP. But you never bring that up.
     
  19. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Yes you. To make a point.

    Having anything to do with UKIP is constantly used against anyone who sees any good at all in leaving the EU. There has been constant accusations of racism with anyone who votes UKIP.

    But someone like yourself who voted UKIP....who then cries their eyes out when the purpose of UKIP occurred......makes up all sorts of stories in defence of the EU it means nothing.
     
  20. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    So workers rights are not already secure and you are not making up things again?
     
  21. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    They’re secure under the European human rights charter at this moment in time. When we leave the EU we’re not adopting this so we don’t know what protection for workers rights will be when we leave. Sorry if that’s too complicated for you to understand. Has there even been a draft bill yet on what will replace it? What am I supposed to be making up exactly? When you’ve used the word already in your reply you mean currently. If we’re not adopting aspects of EU law we currently govern to it will be replaced. What will it be replaced with exactly?
     
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  22. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    You repeatedly over a number of pages called me a racist before then attempting to play the victim. I’m not sure what point you thought you were making but if it was to prove that you’re an asshole congratulations, you achieved it.

    I explained several times how I used my vote as a protest vote in the European elections after Cameron announced the referendum and before his negotiations with the EU. You’ve repeatedly chosen to ignore that and make out I voted UKIP for other reasons. Again I don’t know what point you think you’re making but again if it’s to prove you’re an asshole congratulations, you achieved it.

    What stories have I made up exactly?
     
  23. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    No. You are doing the normal and trying to make everything sound as bad as you can without any evidence for what you ate saying.
     
  24. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    So myself and others never got accused of racism because I can see some good about leaving the EU?

    When someone says something publicly about the good on leaving the EU straight away on here there is a search to see if they have anything to do with UKIP.

    But like I keep saying if you are a remain at any costs you could vote whichever way you want. It makes no difference. Even you made comments about UKIP until Grendel brought up posts from the past where you bragged about voting UKIP.
     
  25. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Where have I made it sound bad? Workers rights are currently protected under EU law, we’re not adopting that law and we don’t know what’s replacing it. That’s all I’ve pointed out and that’s the reality of it. If you want to put your head in the sand by pretending I’ve made the reality of the situation sound bad knock yourself out. Another reality is that I haven’t really passed judgment on it either way, good or bad. I’ll reserve judgment on that until we know what is replacing it.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  26. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    You labelled me a racist, repeatedly. What comments did I make on UKIP exactly? If you read the thread that Grendull linked on UKIP you and me said basically the same thing. It’s only on this thread that you apparently changed your mind in your haste to be Grendulls lapdog and decided UKIP voters are racist.
     
  27. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    If you are not passing judgement why do you only mention what could go wrong and then talk as though it will?

    So we don't have workers rights here? And any party that tried to remove them would be finished. Just like the Lib Dems were when they got into bed with the Tories.
     
  28. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Because on here some remainers make out that anyone with anything to do with UKIP are racist. I ended up showing black people that supported UKIP. That was still not enough. Then Grendel brought up where you voted for UKIP. Suddenly it stopped. I wonder why.
     
  29. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ. We have workers rights now as EU members. We’re not adopting the EU human rights charter when we leave. That covers workers rights. We don’t know what will be replacing this. How are you finding that so difficult to understand? You keep asking me if we have workers rights now. I’ve told you now three times that we do. It doesn’t matter how many times you ask me the answer is always going to be yes. You’re not going to trick me into somehow saying no.
     
  30. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Including you.
     
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  31. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    The notion that any political party would remove any if the workers rights legislation is ludicrous particularly as all those parties that believe in equality of wealth distribution and worker empowerment want to leave the EU
     
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  32. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    But it is mud to throw at those who can see a few good things that might come from leaving the EU.

    As usual we don't agree on the subject. I would prefer us to stay in the EU. But you talk more sense than most who want to stay in.
     
  33. Sick Boy

    Sick Boy Well-Known Member

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    You are more confusing than my girlfriend and she's half mad!
     
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  34. Astute

    Astute Well-Known Member

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    Why is that?

    As I have said before plenty of times I have relatives living in France. My retirement plans are to tour Europe when not at games. I plan to retire in less than 10 years when my 8 and 9 year olds are 18 and 19. I travel frequently to the EU. I'm even going again straight after we win at Wembley.

    But there are possible good points about leaving. Just like there are possible good points about staying in.

    The problem is that we won't know what is good or bad until the deal is done. And we won't know what is good or bad until reality hits home.

    But what we do have on here is guesses which are made out to be certainties. There are no certainties. I am not even sure 100% that we will leave.

    What is confusing about that?

    All I try to do is put a balanced debate together. But some don't want a debate. All they want is their version and nothing else.
     
  35. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    I'm just going to interject here to say bravo to Donald Tusk for saying how it is when dealing with Trumps USA .
    Carry on lads.
     

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