The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (292 Viewers)

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

martcov

Well-Known Member
I have not defended the UK at all. You do nothing but defend the EU.

Can you argue against this.

So helping refugees is putting them in holding camps?

Detention centres? Well if there are to be no open borders and they are not going to go back, then what else can you do with refugees? I await your solution. Merkel tried to help them by allowing uncontrolled immigration at her borders. The usual suspects fanned the flames of racism. The right are now in a position to exercise leverage. So what other solution do you propose?
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
How did that manifest itself into blackmail?

For a start they got their blackmail money via government investment in Northern Ireland to get their support in a support agreement. I said tail wagging the dog, in this case on the Northern Ireland border issue, and in Germany the CSU is wagging the dog on the Southern German border issue.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Freedom of movement in its current guise will be gone in the near future. Even Merkel and her Brussels side kicks have too many holes to plug now.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
For a start they got their blackmail money via government investment in Northern Ireland to get their support in a support agreement. I said tail wagging the dog, in this case on the Northern Ireland border issue, and in Germany the CSU is wagging the dog on the Southern German border issue.

Please provide some evidence that there was a consensus in the uk government to adopt a recommendation from Ireland as its proposal and the DUP changed this.

Show me the cabinet minutes as I assume you are in possession of them.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
The one thing you always ignore is somehow the German population has stayed steady. The UK population has shot up. England is now one of the most densely populated countries in the world.

Perhaps the lack of non EU immigration in Germany plays a part? In 2015 39% of net immigration in Germany was EU citizens. So, I don’t know why. Maybe the language? Perhaps the pro business employment laws in Britain. You would know more than I do. There are certainly no borders stopping EU citizens coming into Germany. My daughter is living with a Spaniard now. He got a job here straight away.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Please provide some evidence that there was a consensus in the uk government to adopt a recommendation from Ireland as its proposal and the DUP changed this.

Show me the cabinet minutes as I assume you are in possession of them.

Just read what the DUP have said on the subject. Arlene Foster made it very clear that they would never accept a sea border. That’s it end of story. Why do I need to see what the government said? The tail has spoken and the dog is trying to find a way round a hard border without having a sea border.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Detention centres? Well if there are to be no open borders and they are not going to go back, then what else can you do with refugees? I await your solution. Merkel tried to help them by allowing uncontrolled immigration at her borders. The usual suspects fanned the flames of racism. The right are now in a position to exercise leverage. So what other solution do you propose?
The usual suspects in Germany are the AfD that you say are not a problem. Now other parties have to show willing to stop them getting even more of the vote.

So you always say that open borders are the way to go. It saves time at borders. But borders are closing.

It isn't as simple as changing just one or two things. Priority should be given to those who need help. But it is given to those who have the right passport. And I have said the same thing countless times. If we need fruit pickers as you say we need we should have those who have escaped persecution to fill in. If we need skilled workers it should be open to anyone in the world. If you go somewhere that is through choice and not necessity you should be able to provide the proof that you are self sufficient.

But no. Not in the EU. You can be an economic migrant if you have an EU passport. But the plan is now to lock you up if you need help and you are from outside the EU.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
They land in 3 countries mainly. Of course the other 11 can take the kudos for nothing. Just like the Austrian PM said....They will only land there if they come by parachute.

And France and Germany wants nothing to do with helping them. They have publicly said so. They would prefer to close their borders.

It is not where the refugees land though... it is where they are first registered. Seehofer wants to turn back refugees registered elsewhere when they arrive in Germany. That is not the majority.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Hope not. It would set us back years and would cost a fortune to control.
And you didn't see it coming?

What is the difference between an EU economic migrant and a non EU economic migrant? After all they are human beings who want the same thing.

So they want to go to Germany, France or the UK. Germany and France are easy if open borders are in use. So many will try. Just like many try daily to get to the UK when there is even more sea to get across.

Open borders are a great idea on paper. But in reality it is totally different.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
It is not where the refugees land though... it is where they are first registered. Seehofer wants to turn back refugees registered elsewhere when they arrive in Germany. That is not the majority.
But Seehofer holds weight. He has those who you say mean nothing backing him. It is getting bad although you won't admit it. Merkel is not strong these days. There are major problems ahead. Where they first register? That is why they are stranded in Italy, Greece and Spain.

Something has to change. And I am not for innocent people being locked up.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
The usual suspects in Germany are the AfD that you say are not a problem. Now other parties have to show willing to stop them getting even more of the vote.

So you always say that open borders are the way to go. It saves time at borders. But borders are closing.

It isn't as simple as changing just one or two things. Priority should be given to those who need help. But it is given to those who have the right passport. And I have said the same thing countless times. If we need fruit pickers as you say we need we should have those who have escaped persecution to fill in. If we need skilled workers it should be open to anyone in the world. If you go somewhere that is through choice and not necessity you should be able to provide the proof that you are self sufficient.

But no. Not in the EU. You can be an economic migrant if you have an EU passport. But the plan is now to lock you up if you need help and you are from outside the EU.


Wrong as usual. You have 3 months to be self sufficient in EU countries as an EU citizen. If not you can be deported.

Not everyone can work as a fruit picker and what happens after the season? A 70 year old refugee from Aleppo would be no help under your idea. What would his children and grand children do? Crazy idea.

Quick question. If you removed the 3,5 million EU “economic migrants” as you call them, what would happen to the UK economy seeing as there are only 1 million plus unemployed people in the UK? It obviously isn’t just skilled people that we need. Sounds like more Faragisms in your ideas.

Being locked up whilst your case is evaluated and a place for you is found.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Wrong as usual. You have 3 months to be self sufficient in EU countries as an EU citizen. If not you can be deported.

Not everyone can work as a fruit picker and what happens after the season? A 70 year old refugee from Aleppo would be no help under your idea. What would his children and grand children do? Crazy idea.

Quick question. If you removed the 3,5 million EU “economic migrants” as you call them, what would happen to the UK economy seeing as there are only 1 million plus unemployed people in the UK? It obviously isn’t just skilled people that we need. Sounds like more Faragisms in your ideas.

Being locked up whilst your case is evaluated and a place for you is found.
Crazy idea?

OK. So no more EU economic migrants who are not of work age then? Of course it is as stupid as your comment.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Just read what the DUP have said on the subject. Arlene Foster made it very clear that they would never accept a sea border. That’s it end of story. Why do I need to see what the government said? The tail has spoken and the dog is trying to find a way round a hard border without having a sea border.

So what? It’s evidence of nothing. Of course you’d have to see what a government uk view is - no one knows if foster stated she’d refuse to back the government on any other measure and bring it down or if the government wanted a sea border in the first place (which is highly unlikely) so as usual you made an assumption with zero factual evidence.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
And you didn't see it coming?

What is the difference between an EU economic migrant and a non EU economic migrant? After all they are human beings who want the same thing.

So they want to go to Germany, France or the UK. Germany and France are easy if open borders are in use. So many will try. Just like many try daily to get to the UK when there is even more sea to get across.

Open borders are a great idea on paper. But in reality it is totally different.

The FOM is reciprocal and we live in Europe so can take advantage of it if we wish. ‘They” have to get into Schengen first. Then “they” can travel freely, but are supposed to be staying where they are registered. As they are not locked up, it is difficult to have complete control.

Open borders is even better in practice. A fantastic achievement. There is no great incentive to do away with it.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Crazy idea?

OK. So no more EU economic migrants who are not of work age then? Of course it is as stupid as your comment.

What are you on about? What economic migrants are those? Most come to work from the EU, or are pensioners from places like the U.K.. If a pensioner from Romania comes he has to have an income or he could be deported after 3 months. Same with the UK pensioners in Spain, they cannot claim a Spanish pension.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
So what? It’s evidence of nothing. Of course you’d have to see what a government uk view is - no one knows if foster stated she’d refuse to back the government on any other measure and bring it down or if the government wanted a sea border in the first place (which is highly unlikely) so as usual you made an assumption with zero factual evidence.

Why did Davis the try and deny that had signed up to a backstop sea border? Why is May trying to get the cabinet agree to collect duties for the EU as an alternative to a sea border? The factual evidence is that Arlene Foster said no way and May is looking for an alternative. They signed up to a backstop sea border.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Why did Davis the try and deny that had signed up to a backstop sea border? Why is May trying to get the cabinet agree to collect duties for the EU as an alternative to a sea border? The factual evidence is that Arlene Foster said no way and May is looking for an alternative. They signed up to a backstop sea border.

There is no evidence and it may have escaped your notice but the Brexit legislation will go through parliament without any dup support - well it clearly has escaped your attention
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
There is no evidence and it may have escaped your notice but the Brexit legislation will go through parliament without any dup support - well it clearly has escaped your attention

What was Arlene Foster‘s 11th hour intervention all about then?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
The FOM is reciprocal and we live in Europe so can take advantage of it if we wish. ‘They” have to get into Schengen first. Then “they” can travel freely, but are supposed to be staying where they are registered. As they are not locked up, it is difficult to have complete control.

Open borders is even better in practice. A fantastic achievement. There is no great incentive to do away with it.
Even if it means giving freedom of movement to those who you don't want to have freedom of movement?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
What was Arlene Foster‘s 11th hour intervention all about then?

I repeat brexit legislation is going through regardless of the DUP - you get the reason for that don’t you?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
Freedom of movement in its current guise will be gone in the near future. Even Merkel and her Brussels side kicks have too many holes to plug now.

Much in the same way that the EU was on the verge of collapse and Austria, France and Holland would be following Britain's example? Oh, and how Labour were supposed to be wiped out for a generation after the last election?
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
Please provide some evidence that there was a consensus in the uk government to adopt a recommendation from Ireland as its proposal and the DUP changed this.

Show me the cabinet minutes as I assume you are in possession of them.

The government and the wider British public couldn't give a toss about NI. I'm sure May would be more than happy for the north to be alligned with the Republic.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The
Much in the same way that the EU was on the verge of collapse and Austria, France and Holland would be following Britain's example? Oh, and how Labour were supposed to be wiped out for a generation after the last election?

Austrian troops are already on the Italian border aren’t they?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The government and the wider British public couldn't give a toss about NI. I'm sure May would be more than happy for the north to be alligned with the Republic.

No I never gave it s thought when voting and wouldn’t now. They are wider considerations at stake

I don’t think under Eu rules they are allowed to join the republic are they? Guess they could go independent for two years and then see if they can apply for EU status. Seems to have frightened the Scots off.

Either that or they accept the solution that’s ultimately agreed.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
No I never gave it s thought when voting and wouldn’t now. They are wider considerations at stake

I don’t think under Eu rules they are allowed to join the republic are they? Guess they could go independent for two years and then see if they can apply for EU status. Seems to have frightened the Scots off.

Either that or they accept the solution that’s ultimately agreed.

I meant regulatory alignment with regards to the border. I think if both the Republic and NI wanted it to happen I think it would do, but I can't see that happening anytime soon.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
No I never gave it s thought when voting and wouldn’t now. They are wider considerations at stake

I don’t think under Eu rules they are allowed to join the republic are they? Guess they could go independent for two years and then see if they can apply for EU status. Seems to have frightened the Scots off.

Either that or they accept the solution that’s ultimately agreed.

Any news on the acceptable solution?
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
The usual suspects in Germany are the AfD that you say are not a problem. Now other parties have to show willing to stop them getting even more of the vote.

So you always say that open borders are the way to go. It saves time at borders. But borders are closing.

It isn't as simple as changing just one or two things. Priority should be given to those who need help. But it is given to those who have the right passport. And I have said the same thing countless times. If we need fruit pickers as you say we need we should have those who have escaped persecution to fill in. If we need skilled workers it should be open to anyone in the world. If you go somewhere that is through choice and not necessity you should be able to provide the proof that you are self sufficient.

But no. Not in the EU. You can be an economic migrant if you have an EU passport. But the plan is now to lock you up if you need help and you are from outside the EU.

Is the plan to lock people up finalised? The SPD won’t wear that. Discussions are still ongoing in Germany and the period of 4 weeks was mentioned. There is still a long way to go.
 

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member
Merkel always said the refugees were welcome and should be shared with other EU countries. It didn’t happen ( strange as you claim the EU is run by Merkel ), so she has been weakened and has little option but to take what she can out of it. Which she is doing. 14 countries have agreed to take back refugees who were first registered in their country. This is to stop refugees deciding which country they want to stay in. The Dublin agreement is the country where they were first registered. That is the rule and the CSU wants that enforced or they will bring the government down. A bit like the DUP situation in the U.K. The tail is wagging the dog.

Merkel says this…Merkel wants that…

Does anyone really care what she says or wants anymore?

Most of Europe couldn’t give a toss what Merkel says or wants and an ever increasing percentage of your fellow Germans feel the same, they despise her. Her credibility is gone, shot to pieces, she’s an object of ridicule.

It does seem ironic that the woman who most blame for the disastrous migrant crisis has the brass neck to now lecture European leaders on how they must deal with the mess.

Her time has gone. Good riddance.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
They were last summer,not sure about now. That doesn't mean FoM is under threat for Europeans.

FOM is one of the greatest post war achievements in Europe. Most humans appreciate freedom to go where they want. It is not possible in the whole world, but in 28 countries it is. An amazing situation. Losing it and recreating borders creates supply problems, delays and costs. Apart from the bureaucracy for individuals filling out visas.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Any news on the acceptable solution?

Down to the EU really isn’t it. I’m the same way as they use the people of the southern counties they will use the Irish as a political football in the hope of getting Britain to tow the line.

May is no thatcher. Thatcher despite being pro Europe would have carried out the whole mandate in a more forceful way. The Eu is in some turmoil with member states ignoring its rules. Austria will ignore the rules soon and insist on border regulations to cross through Italy - Hungary will follow. It’s vulnerable.

The Eu should be told no no deal means no divorce payment and all ties cut. It will then be forced to impose greater contributions on already sceptical member states. All it will take is one to fall out of line and the house of cards will collapse.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Merkel says this…Merkel wants that…

Does anyone really care what she says or wants anymore?

Most of Europe couldn’t give a toss what Merkel says or wants and an ever increasing percentage of your fellow Germans feel the same, they despise her. Her credibility is gone, shot to pieces, she’s an object of ridicule.

It does seem ironic that the woman who most blame for the disastrous migrant crisis has the brass neck to now lecture European leaders on how they must deal with the mess.

Her time has gone. Good riddance.

Correct - at best merkel was an overblown town hall mayor - now she is a completely busted flush.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Merkel says this…Merkel wants that…

Does anyone really care what she says or wants anymore?

Most of Europe couldn’t give a toss what Merkel says or wants and an ever increasing percentage of your fellow Germans feel the same, they despise her. Her authority is gone, shot to pieces, she’s an object of ridicule.

It does seem ironic that the woman who most blame for the disastrous migrant crisis has the brass neck to now lecture European leaders on how they must deal with the mess.

Her time has gone. Good riddance.

Germany didn’t invade or bomb the countries where the refugees are coming from. Merkel is not to blame for the refugee crisis. Who drew the borders round these countries without taking account of local populations after WW1?

The blame for a lot of this lies with the UK. What are we doing? Sweet FA. Only a few thousands taken in.

The other right wing countries have done the same as the U.K. and left Germany in the lurch. That is why there is a crisis. The only way to solve it is that there is a unified process to evaluate and share the burden. Populists can’t solve problems without creating backlash. It has to be multilateral.
 

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