The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (123 Viewers)

[martcov]

I'm out. And out for good. They have their way.

No more proof is needed for me. You can't have a debate with people who want to twist everything you say. Even trying to help someone with words they use to describe other people gets changed to accusing someone of racism. And yet another stupid argument.

I have not been able to understand how you can be in full agreement on the basics with people but because of agendas never being able to agree because you see problems on both sides of the debate and others refuse to consider the problems of one side of it yet defend everything else to the point of having to admit a total bias.

I am not a 'leftie" and I am not a 'rightie'. I am straight down the middle. I am a lifelong Labour voter and union member. But there is nothing telling me to vote Labour. Luckily nobody else is worthwhile voting for.

Brexit is a sham. It was a vote that shouldn't have happened. And all because the Tories wanted to be voted in again more than anything else. Cameron is an idiot. The problem with the Tories is they use fear in just about every general election. And it normally works. They tried fear on Brexit. And stick with them because things would change in the EU. But Juncker didn't get the plans. He called Cameron out as a liar just a few days before the vote. So it went from an easy win to something too close to call. But it was 1st past the post.

Now we have a guaranteed shitfest whatever happens. If we pull out fully 48% won't be happy. Things could get hard for a couple of years or more. If we half stay in we could be worse off in every way than we are now. Same rules but less say. And if we stay in fully the shit will hit the fan. UKIP will most probably be reborn and could become the biggest party in the UK.

And nothing you say on here will change anything in the slightest.

Those who want to remain are in charge of leaving. Those who want to leave (Not the idiot Farage) make out they want to remain. Does anyone see a problem here?

So who will suffer? Of course it is us. No matter what happens. We will either be ruled by the EU who don't care about us or a British government who also don't care about us. They are nearly all in it for what they can get out of it. And we are always left to suffer the consequences.

I agree with some of that post. At the end it is the people at the bottom that suffer. IMO they have been played. Lied to and fed a promise that cannot be fulfilled without people suffering.

 

---

[martcov]

Don't worry. SB accuses me of saying people are racist when I haven't. But he defends someone who has used racist terms and refuses to listen when told what he is saying. Work that one out.

Used racist terms? The same as people on here use „monkey boy“ to have a go at another poster? I quoted racists and put it in parentheses to show it was a quote. You said I shouldn’t even quote it, but a certain poster refers to „monkey boy“ regularly, taken out of context of course. You give him a pass.

 

[martcov]

They are trying to make you or anyone else to slip up and say something which they can jump on and say they're right....Typical lefties i'm afraid.

Don’t have to try very hard, or at all actually...

 

[martcov]

Hurry up and 'like' this Mart.....3 in a row

Done.

 

[Grendel]

We have already gone over it several times before. The fact you're trying to insinuate that Mart is a racist is clutching at straws and pretty low.

No but he definitely shows a bigoted attitude and definitely supports fascist ideology

 

[martcov]

That is your opinion.

You read up selected articles...probably because the headline statement appeals to you. You select quoted numbers from them...add some MartFactor & quote them on here in what is at times a bigoted fashion.

That is my opinion...hence they could be talking about you.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I have read Brexit articles in the Mail, Telegraph, Breitbart and Express. Then I have read the reader comments. I think I know the arguments there.

I have watched UKIP, BNP ( in the past ), Rees Mogg phone ins, Farage interviews and phone ins.... plus many more of that ilk. I have read the YouTube comments..

I have seen and read a lot more. That is hardly being selective of one side of the argument.

My conclusion is that people were and are being played and are „having their buttons pushed“. It’s not about facts, it is about emotions. Which has been admitted by leave and is unfortunate for the country.j

 

[martcov]

No but he definitely shows a bigoted attitude and definitely supports fascist ideology

Don’t be so stupid. You are more UKIP than Farage and have the same selfish attitude.

 

[martcov]

No but he definitely shows a bigoted attitude and definitely supports fascist ideology

Which fascist ideology would that be? The anti migrant? The bullying? The military business style of fascism of Mussolini and Trump, who you support? Look in the mirror if you want to see a fascist fan.

 

[Grendel]

Don’t be so stupid. You are more UKIP than Farage and have the same selfish attitude.

Farage and ukip are the opposite of fascist ideology

 

[skybluetony176]

Farage and ukip are the opposite of fascist ideology

Ultranationalism is at the heart of UKIP, as it is in fascism. They have more than a passing resemblance.

 

[Grendel]

Ultranationalism is at the heart of UKIP, as it is in fascism. They have more than a passing resemblance.

Tony has been reading wiki again

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony has been reading wiki again

And there’s the confirmation I’m right. Cheers.

 

[Grendel]

And there’s the confirmation I’m right. Cheers.

No Tony I googled wiki and that’s what it said.

What’s the principal ideology of fascism Tony? What is it’s core philosophy?

 

[skybluetony176]

No Tony I googled wiki and that’s what it said.

What’s the principal ideology of fascism Tony? What is it’s core philosophy?

Thanks for the further confirmation. It wasn’t needed though, we all got that you were wrong from your initial response. Funny how you’ve changed your tune on UKIP though. The penny has obviously dropped regarding your ideology and there’s being in line with each other’s. You’ve gone from declaring that they are racist and anyone who’s voted for them is also racist (racism being another fascist trait) to declaring that they have nothing in common with fascism. You’re really at odds with yourself on this one aren’t you.

 

[Grendel]

Thanks for the further confirmation. It wasn’t needed though, we all got that you were wrong from your initial response. Funny how you’ve changed your tune on UKIP though. The penny has obviously dropped regarding your ideology and there’s being in line with each other’s. You’ve gone from declaring that they are racist and anyone who’s voted for them is also racist (racism being another fascist trait) to declaring that they have nothing in common with fascism. You’re really at odds with yourself on this one aren’t you.

Tony rather than saying “thanks for the confirmation”’which really is a euphemism for “shit I haven’t got a clue what that word means” perhaps we can have an adult discussion here?

My view on ultranationalism is that it cannot operate in a country that has an electoral system such as ours. Our system essentially means this forms of extremes cannot ever exist and anyone who supports such what essentially is a devaluing of power to the individual would oppose the electoral constitution that Farage holds so dear.

The essential ingredients of a facist state is increased central control and exactly the opposite to what a little englander like Farage would believe in. It dilutes individual influence in the determination of the ruling classes.

So you’ve always said I respond in childlike ways Tony - here is an opportunity to have an adult discussion

Up for it?

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony rather than saying “thanks for the confirmation”’which really is a euphemism for “shit I haven’t got a clue what that word means” perhaps we can have an adult discussion here?

My view on ultranationalism is that it cannot operate in a country that has an electoral system such as ours. Our system essentially means this forms of extremes cannot ever exist and anyone who supports such what essentially is a devaluing of power to the individual would oppose the electoral constitution that Farage holds so dear.

The essential ingredients of a facist state is increased central control and exactly the opposite to what a little englander like Farage would believe in. It dilutes individual influence in the determination of the ruling classes.

So you’ve always said I respond in childlike ways Tony - here is an opportunity to have an adult discussion

Up for it?

UKIP support the destruction of the electoral system that has had a say in this country for over 40 years, as do you. You’ve also just confirmed in your own words that that is a fascist trait. Thank you for the further confirmation, again not needed. We all got that you were wrong from your initial response.

Central control is exactly what Ferage wants as do you and like Ferage you don’t believe in the sovereignty of parliament as you want the government to dictate Brexit without a vote in either houses. Another fascist trait. Thank you for the further confirmation, again not needed. We all got that from your initial response. Maybe you’re a closet fascist as well as a closet UKIP supporter. You really are on a journey of self discovery at the moment. No wonder you’re so confused.

 

[Grendel]

UKIP support the destruction of the electoral system that has had a say in this country for over 40 years, as do you. You’ve also just confirmed in your own words that that is a fascist trait. Thank you for the further confirmation, again not needed. We all got that you were wrong from your initial response.

Central control is exactly what Ferage wants as do you and like Ferage you don’t believe in the sovereignty of parliament as you want the government to dictate Brexit without a vote in either houses. Another fascist trait. Thank you for the further confirmation, again not needed. We all got that from your initial response. Maybe you’re a closet fascist as well as a closet UKIP supporter. You really are on a journey of self discovery at the moment. No wonder you’re so confused.

A rather sad and predictable tirade if I’ll thought out insults and accusations

Can you explain please what you mean by the destruction of the electoral system?

 

[Grendel]

I would agree with several thesis that the Eu is similar in concept and design to the Roman Empire

Tony - what is your perspective on this especially given the implication that you believe the House of Lords is intrinsic to our democracy?

 

[skybluetony176]

A rather sad and predictable tirade if I’ll thought out insults and accusations

Can you explain please what you mean by the destruction of the electoral system?

He, like you doesn’t want the U.K. governed by the European Parliament which is full of people democratically elected by the people it governs. He, like you want to strip away layers of the electoral system we have become accustomed to for almost half a century. Like you have already confirmed this is a trait of fascism. Your continued defence of UKIP and their policies that concur with your own ideology is duly noted. You must be salivating at the thought of Ferage coming back to politics.

 

[skybluetony176]

I would agree with several thesis that the Eu is similar in concept and design to the Roman Empire

Tony - what is your perspective on this especially given the implication that you believe the House of Lords is intrinsic to our democracy?

We have two houses in this country, the main one and crucially the policy maker is elected. We then have a third stream of democracy by way of the elected European Parliament. How is any of that similar in concept and design to the Roman Empire?

Sounds to me like you’re talking bollocks in an attempt to sound educated.

 

[Grendel]

We have two houses in this country, the main one and crucially the policy maker is elected. We then have a third stream of democracy by way of the elected European Parliament. How is any of that similar in concept and design to the Roman Empire?

Sounds to me like you’re talking bollocks in an attempt to sound educated.

So you reject Will Huttons belief that the Eu is in design and ideology similar to the Roman Empire but with germany at the helm? Have you read his thesis Tony?

 

[Grendel]

He, like you doesn’t want the U.K. governed by the European Parliament which is full of people democratically elected by the people it governs. He, like you want to strip away layers of the electoral system we have become accustomed to for almost half a century. Like you have already confirmed this is a trait of fascism. Your continued defence of UKIP and their policies that concur with your own ideology is duly noted. You must be salivating at the thought of Ferage coming back to politics.

So you believe centralism of National states is a better form democracy than individual control? I assume you therefore were totally opposed to devolution of powers to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales

 

[skybluetony176]

So you reject Will Huttons belief that the Eu is in design and ideology similar to the Roman Empire but with germany at the helm? Have you read his thesis Tony?

Is this the same Will Hutton who laments that we didn’t join the Euro?

 

[skybluetony176]

So you believe centralism of National states is a better form democracy than individual control? I assume you therefore were totally opposed to devolution of powers to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales

The Scottish, Northern Ireland and Welsh assemblies are run by elected members. As I’ve already expressed concern of the stripping down of the electoral system why would I? And that’s before you even go into my own personal connection to the Northern Ireland piece process and the role the assembly has played in helping (although sadly not of late) that process to be cemented.

 

[martcov]

So you believe centralism of National states is a better form democracy than individual control? I assume you therefore were totally opposed to devolution of powers to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales

Farage is not for self determination of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. His Nation State is the UK. He wants PR which may enable him to attain power.

 

[skybluetony176]

Farage is not for self determination of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. His Nation State is the UK. He wants PR which may enable him to attain power.

More stripping away of the electoral system. But they couldn’t be further away from fascism apparently.

 

[skybluetony176]

There is rumours going around (although denied by Farage but he also said anything is possible in politics as well in response to the rumours) that he’s going to try for Parliament again by standing for the DUP. He’s certainly cosying up to them anyhow Nigel Farage 'could join DUP' amid speculation he could be making another bid for Parliament - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

Is this the same Will Hutton who laments that we didn’t join the Euro?

Absolutely

 

[skybluetony176]

Absolutely

So when you say Thesis which definition of the word are you using it in? For context.

 

[Grendel]

The Scottish, Northern Ireland and Welsh assemblies are run by elected members. As I’ve already expressed concern of the stripping down of the electoral system why would I? And that’s before you even go into my own personal connection to the Northern Ireland piece process and the role the assembly has played in helping (although sadly not of late) that process to be cemented.

You say you are concerned about stripping down elected members but seem to believe that centralisation if a European Parliament is progress towards such a utopia. On the face of it that’s a contradiction. How can you reconcile that Tony?

 

[Grendel]

So when you say Thesis which definition of the word are you using it in? For context.

Tony - Will Hutton is an expert in European affairs as i an sure we both agree. In one of his great researched essays on Europe he likened it to the centralist dictatorial regime of the Roman Empire - are you agreeing with that? I’m still confused as well how centralism - which every EU supporter acknowledges - can be reconciled with a support of devolution

I’d like you to help me with that one Tony if you can

 

[skybluetony176]

You say you are concerned about stripping down elected members but seem to believe that centralisation if a European Parliament is progress towards such a utopia. On the face of it that’s a contradiction. How can you reconcile that Tony?

A European Parliament is an extension of elected membership, it isn’t an alternative or replacement to. Unlike a regression of elected members as backed by yourself and UKIP.

 

[Grendel]

A European Parliament is an extension of elected membership, it isn’t an alternative or replacement to. Unlike a regression of elected members as backed by yourself and UKIP.

No it’s centralisation of a superstate- why mention ukip Tony? The arguments against this are actually from distinguished socialists like Anthony Wedgewood Benn - are you saying Benn would have been a member of ukip as he believed the EU Parliament was anti democratic - is that the accusation you levy against Benn, Foot team al?

 

[Captain Dart]

We have two houses in this country, the main one and crucially the policy maker is elected. We then have a third stream of democracy by way of the elected European Parliament. How is any of that similar in concept and design to the Roman Empire?

Sounds to me like you’re talking bollocks in an attempt to sound educated.

It is the appointed EU commission that makes the laws, no one directly votes for the commissioners.
The MEP's merely get the chance to amend the laws the commission drafts.
Then the UK parliament has to pass those laws.
I am not surprised you do not understand how the 'club' operates.

 

[martcov]

It is the appointed EU commission that makes the laws, no one directly votes for the commissioners.
The MEP's merely get the chance to amend the laws the commission drafts.
Then the UK parliament has to pass those laws.
I am not surprised you do not understand how the 'club' operates.

Or more correctly, they can pass, amend or reject the laws put forward by the commission whose job it is to carry out the aims of the council of 28 democratic countries. The commission is not legislative. But you carry on with your faragisms.