Long term leaving looks best is what you actually said. You wouldn’t mind staying if the EU could be reformed, you say that is not going to happen, which implies you won’t be staying because the EU won’t be reformed. Certainly looks like covering your arse for whatever happens.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (300 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
Long term leaving looks best is what you actually said. You wouldn’t mind staying if the EU could be reformed, you say that is not going to happen, which implies you won’t be staying because the EU won’t be reformed. Certainly looks like covering your arse for whatever happens.
I said trivial in comparison. As you well know, but you left out the comparison bit. Showing your exemplary honesty again. They have lost some trust as Juncker has proved you can get around the system if you know the rules. The plus, that is to be gained, is that people who never used to bother about the EU are now getting interested. I sincerely hope that people get out and vote at the next European elections. The more European citizens that take part, the better for Europe and the EU. The extremists do better proportionally when the turnout is low. I would like to see the younger generation getting into power through more seats in the EU parliament.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Most if not all of the countries in the EU have drifted to the right. Nothing to be proud of.
No, not at all. Which is why we don’t need the Bannon, Breitbart, Farage type of bullshit being targeted during the EU elections.
Astute
Well-Known Member
The top of the EU being bent is trivial compared to what?
If anything it gives another reason towards the balance on if to leave or not.
Compared to 500 million people living in peace and relative prosperity. Although it is wrong, although people are in uproar, there are other more pressing things. One is the next budget, then Brexit looming and the elections coming up. As I have already said, if people now get off their arses to make sure the old guard gets called out on such things, that they now take more interest because of Juncker, because of Farage and Bannon, then we are getting somewhere.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
What’s electric cars got to do with the EU? It’s something that’s happening worldwide. Are we going to have a referendum on leaving the world?
For once though you’re actually right on something with regards the true environmental costs of certain green energies and electric car batteries. What you fail to do though is understand how important this makes the little things like low energy light bulbs and vacuum cleaners with smaller motors are. A pretty simple sum you can do is watts divided by volts. A typical 3 bed house will have something like 10 light fittings based on one fitting in each room if they’re all 60w GLS lamps and all are on that means on lighting alone your house requires almost 3amps continual, change them to equivalent low energy of around 9w and your house requires almost 0.5amps. That makes the lighting in a house with low energy light bulbs 6 times more efficient than a house that doesn’t. Why would you have a problem with that? How many more powestations would we need if everyone suddenly converted back to traditional GLS lamps of 60 watt plus capacity? How green is a power station to build regardless of if it’s fossil fuel, nuclear fuel or green fuel. They all have a carbon footprint from the manufacture of them. Unfortunately people are stupid to the point of ignorance. Look how people started stockpiling GLS lamps when the laws were about to come in. When people aren’t willing to change even if that is for the greater good sometimes it takes new laws and changes in existing laws to force that change. That’s a strength.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Well I think I can confidently assure you I know that Astute, Grendel & I have all expressed positives of being in the EU, concerns about remaining, concerns about leaving & acknowledgement that leaving isn't going to be any short-term joy-ride.
I voted remain, I accepted the vote to leave, accept we are leaving, look for positives. Mart virtually always & one or two others (including yourself) at times have actually pushed me toward sympathy with leaver voters/campaign
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Also, people happily visit the US & wax lyrical about how lovely the food is & how much of it there is & how cheap it is etc.
Are people keeing over in the US as a result of these maybe different, rather than lower, standards?
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
The EUs own Food Standards acknowledges the US chicken debate is an utter sham - it is designed to stop the imports due to protectionism. The notion the EU which has some of the worst animal welfare standards in the world cares a jot is a farce.
Astute claims there are positives, but I don’t think Grendel ever has. He uses words such as „vile“ when he mentions EU. I won’t mention your contribution as you presumably know what you said in support of the EU.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Europe’s attempts to spark an electric vehicle revolution
Diesel is ‘finished’ in Europe amid push for electric cars, EU regulator says | The Star
Is this what you meant? Or what you didn't know?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The first point is full of 'alternative facts'. Posts on here have also pushed me towards being less sympathetic to leave, especially the nonsense about it being a dictatorship and tax-paying migrants contributing to the woes of the country.
Either you want it to be democratic or you don’t. Much as I agree that it gives people like Farage a stage, I am still in favour of elections.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You didn’t read past the headlines did you? You’ll say you did but you clearly didn’t because if you did you would have read that these measures are being brought up because Europe is behind the rest of the world and that’s contrary to the point you’re trying to make. Even though it wasn’t the point I was arguing against. The point I was arguing about was about was the part of my OP that you chose to completely ignore.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Well said...the whole point is that there would be positives & negatives of remaining & of leaving
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
However he has described himself as much a proud European as a proud Britain. I doubt a leave vote was ever s consideration.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I'm actually equally proud to be a British, European and Irish citizen, thanks.
Leave was never an option for me either as the anti-immigration rhetoric put me off and I believe remain is in the country's best interests long-term, as do many people.
Same here, except that I am only a very tiny bit Irish.. back a couple of Generations on one side. Never thought of leaving the EU. Have seen so much progress in simplifying things, increasing trade and bringing people together. Keeping EU citizenship. Would be foolish not to for me.
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
You can't tell me "oh come off it" then make a deliberately hyperbolic statement implying that the only reason the armed forces would be called in is because the government is readying for civil unrest? that statement has no basis in fact, what evidence do you have that would bring you to such a conclusion?
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Haha you? proud to be British? You're fooling no one Germart.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
What's the reason then?
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
I never offered one, however, I could propose many that come before some civil, dystopian death match.
Well you don’t know the things I‘ve done with England and Britain stands on events all over Germany and occasionally other countries. I still do stands on events. Been doing things wit British partners on events for 36 years.
I even had a full size replica of the door, and surround of it, of Number 10 Downing Street. 4m high and 3,6m wide, which I built up on events in several cities. I did The England Stand in 2006 on The Fanmeile in Hamburg for the World Cup, and had the Number 10 as the attraction to my pub stand. Great times. There was a mock up stadium with a big screen, but the England games were best at my stand with just a TV.
I even built a bar in Strasbourg, in the Orangery for some MP‘s at an event to mark the 40 anniversary of the ECHR. Got a thank you from parliament. I did the hospitality stand on the British stand on the biggest tourist fair in Europe for nearly 30 years with my pub stand. Built a pub stand in a posh store in Hamburg in 87 for the visit of Charles and Diana. And again for the reception at Prince Philip‘s visit to the Hanover Industry Fair in 97.
And so on...
And, not just for the money before you say that.
And, my pub has a massive Union Jack on the ceiling just for good measure.
PS I also do the British Stand on the Kiel Week.
To say that I am not proud to be British is a joke. Although my pride has taken a knock because of Brexit. It is an extra embarrassment for me having believed we were a part of the EU and the coming together of the continent after so many wars.
But, enjoy your Brexit.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Why chat bollocks just to try and make me look wrong?
Behind the rest of the world? Let's see your big list of countries ahead of the EU then.
The EU has been about stopping diesel engines for a few years now. Remember when you tried blaming JLR reduced sales on Brexit just like they did until it was proven that it was all about them not changing away from diesels.
So yes.
Electric cars that harm the earth when being built. We will have many millions of them please. And as many as them wi d turbines that badly damage the earth please as we will need them and lots more power to charge up these millions of batteries every day. And then we had better think of how to recycle all these batteries we will have.
Like I said all headlines. But not looking at the details. Just like yourself.
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dutchman
Well-Known Member
German sources deny Brexit deal offer amid panic in Remain campaign
Reports that Germany is willing to offer Theresa May a vague Brexit deal so as to prevent the UK crashing out of the EU with no deal have set alarm bells ringing in the Remain campaign in the UK and prompted denials from German sources.
The Remain campaign, now called People’s Vote, is focused on calling for a second referendum on leaving the EU. It warned against what it described as a “blind Brexit”, and in a rare criticism of the European commission said the EU should not offer May a face-saving deal in which many of the major issues were deferred for negotiation during the transition after the UK has legally left the bloc.
There are concerns amongst some Remain backers that the chief EU Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, is prepared to make the offer if it has the endorsement of Germany and France, on the basis that the majority of EU leaders fear the possibility of no-deal scenario. There is also a concern that details of the future relationship cannot be negotiated in the short time available.
But in a sign of alarm in the Remain campaign, Chris Leslie MP said: “A blind Brexit would take the UK to the same place as a no-deal Brexit, but without the clarity. The idea that the fundamental contradictions of the government’s Brexit policy can be more easily resolved after the UK has left the EU is simply ludicrous."
Reports that Germany is willing to offer Theresa May a vague Brexit deal so as to prevent the UK crashing out of the EU with no deal have set alarm bells ringing in the Remain campaign in the UK and prompted denials from German sources.
The Remain campaign, now called People’s Vote, is focused on calling for a second referendum on leaving the EU. It warned against what it described as a “blind Brexit”, and in a rare criticism of the European commission said the EU should not offer May a face-saving deal in which many of the major issues were deferred for negotiation during the transition after the UK has legally left the bloc.
There are concerns amongst some Remain backers that the chief EU Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, is prepared to make the offer if it has the endorsement of Germany and France, on the basis that the majority of EU leaders fear the possibility of no-deal scenario. There is also a concern that details of the future relationship cannot be negotiated in the short time available.
But in a sign of alarm in the Remain campaign, Chris Leslie MP said: “A blind Brexit would take the UK to the same place as a no-deal Brexit, but without the clarity. The idea that the fundamental contradictions of the government’s Brexit policy can be more easily resolved after the UK has left the EU is simply ludicrous."
Astute
Well-Known Member
This is unbelievable. Over 24 hours on this thread without a single post.
Is it anything to do with the news which contradicts most of what remainers have been saying? Or is it Barnier softening his position and saying that it isn't him that doesn't want a no deal and never has.
And strangely enough he had also said that a free trade agreement and joint security was the most he could offer. And that he will rewrite the wording of what the EU has been saying. Is this the breakthrough that many on here didn't want to see?
UK's Brexit proposals threaten future of EU, says Barnier
As some of us have been saying yes it does put the EU at risk as well as the UK if nothing is sorted. This also seems to be bad news for the catastrophe that some have been pedalling.
Is there now any chance that we could be on the same page and talk about what is the best that could come from this instead of making out that we know and also know it will be bad news whatever?
A bit of good news at last.
Now let's get an agreement where people who have emigrated are given 100% rights to where they are now living? It is the least they deserve.
Is it anything to do with the news which contradicts most of what remainers have been saying? Or is it Barnier softening his position and saying that it isn't him that doesn't want a no deal and never has.
And strangely enough he had also said that a free trade agreement and joint security was the most he could offer. And that he will rewrite the wording of what the EU has been saying. Is this the breakthrough that many on here didn't want to see?
UK's Brexit proposals threaten future of EU, says Barnier
As some of us have been saying yes it does put the EU at risk as well as the UK if nothing is sorted. This also seems to be bad news for the catastrophe that some have been pedalling.
Is there now any chance that we could be on the same page and talk about what is the best that could come from this instead of making out that we know and also know it will be bad news whatever?
A bit of good news at last.
Now let's get an agreement where people who have emigrated are given 100% rights to where they are now living? It is the least they deserve.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Agree with the last bit but would like to see those in the EU given freedom of movement across Europe and those EU citizens in the UK the right to FoM into the UK from life.
Both of the above at the end of the transition period though.
Also look at the possibility of UK nationals being able to become associate EU citizens if they so wish, and possibly vice versa. It'd be interesting to see if only 48% would take this option up
a caveat for the above would be needing to have been offered a job to go and live there to make it more realistic
Astute
Well-Known Member
Can't disagree with you here. We will still need the right skills to come here. But we haven't got the infrastructure for those already here. And we will never catch up until we put plans in place and keep to them.Agree with the last bit but would like to see those in the EU given freedom of movement across Europe and those EU citizens in the UK the right to FoM into the UK from life.
Both of the above at the end of the transition period though.
Also look at the possibility of UK nationals being able to become associate EU citizens if they so wish, and possibly vice versa. It'd be interesting to see if only 48% would take this option up
Immigration shouldn't be down to the colour of someone's passport or skin. But what else should be allowed is a legally built up healthy bank balance. We need to keep tourism alive as many depend on it. And I don't want anyone to suffer who depends on tourism just because a brexiteer moans that it could be a way of sneaking in when they don't meet the criteria.
There is a long way to go. But finally we look to be going in the right direction.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Disagree on the bank balance as it makes it available to certain people only. If someone has a job offer here then that's fair game to come here as long as it's enough to support them. Levels of immigration are unlikely to fall even after Brexit, the country will still require skilled and unskilled workers.
Astute
Well-Known Member
The bank balance is for tourists. And not just for those coming here.
If we keep it for just those who have a job how do we distinguish between those travelling which will be against rules to those who are going to spend money unless a visa is needed?
Or are we going to keep it to time limits? If that is the case I could have 50k to blow on a tour around the EU. But I could only do it for a certain amount of time.
They need to crack some heads together and decide what they want. I am planning to spend many years touring Europe. And I won't be skint before I leave. But if I am limited to say 180 days I will look at further afield.
It isn't about being able to afford a property. It is about being self sufficient. Medical healthcare. Spending money where I want that benefits people who want and need my money.
And it isn't all about me before you say it. I am not the only person who has saved for years to do what they can while raising a family.
You say keep it open for those with job offers. Freedom of movement helps more than those who want to move for work.
If it was all about me I would be spitting feathers like yourself about the Brexiteers. But like I have constantly said it is more than open borders and living where you want. Some control is needed.
I have been in Scotland for a week now spending time with my little grandson. They were on TV last night saying how the population is reducing. They are desperate for people to come and live here wherever they come from. If there are jobs then fill the vacancies. But most want England.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Oh my God, he's 12.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Oh dear, that’s a really feeble attempt at retaliation following your recent humiliation. Come on, you can do better than that.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The model of moving if you have a job is not open borders though and it would involve some sort of ongoing Visa.
I have Irish citizenship, so it's not about me, it's about those UK residents who are going to lose their rights.