The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (192 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

Why did we have a referendum Tony?

It was 'advisory' G...you know like when you ask a financial advisor for advice? Then you seek every possible way you can find to justify ignoring the advice (at your own peril, of course!).

Surely that makes sense to everyone?

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[SkyblueBazza]

Interesting article. Seems a no deal scenario could be better for the EU than us. Certainly for the financial sector anyway.

EU27 expected to keep City of London access after no-deal Brexit, says leading law firm

That article could simply highlight to others that when it comes to practical solutions for post-Brexit operations...Britain is ahead of the EU AND trying to make things happen rather than blocking progress. And also that the fear-mongers' 'cliff-edge' might well be just a non-event (in the financial sector at least)

“The relatively accommodating nature of the UK regulatory regime with regard to overseas firms goes a long way to mitigating the cliff-edge impact of a no-deal for such firms.”

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[skybluetony176]

That article could simply highlight to others that when it comes to practical solutions for post-Brexit operations...Britain is ahead of the EU AND trying to make things happen rather than blocking progress. And also that the fear-mongers' 'cliff-edge' might well be just a non-event (in the financial sector at least)

“The relatively accommodating nature of the UK regulatory regime with regard to overseas firms goes a long way to mitigating the cliff-edge impact of a no-deal for such firms.” FOR THE EU.

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I’ve added the bit you missed of. The accommodating nature means that the impact on the EU financial sector is mitigated, the same cannot be said for the EU financial sector dealing in the EU. For our financial sector it will be a hard brexit, not so for the EU financial sector. I thought that was pretty clear in the article but you seemed to have missed it.

 

[skybluetony176]

What like having a job on a £10k salary & no benefits...but then negotiate the best deal you can (£12k, plus pension & health insurance maybe - but not the £12.5k you wanted) at the annual review. Only to then tell them the new deal isn't what you wanted so you will carry on at £10k & no benefits instead?

That'll work I'm sure.

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And completely missed the point. Let’s take your scenario and have £10k and no benefits as the status quo as EU members. Your assumption is that the government are going to negotiate a salary increase with benefits, that’s an assumption. Now let’s make another assumption. Let’s assume that what the government actually negotiates is a salary cut to £8K with still no benefits. Are you seriously suggesting that we should just accept that with no say because of the results of an advisory poll that suggested that we should renegotiate a salary deal even though we have the option to maintain the £10k no benefits status quo?

If the deal is the equivalent of your scenario it will get voted through. Hell, I’ll even vote for it myself. But if it’s the other scenario why should I lose the opportunity to reject it because some red faced, frothy mouthed moron who thinks Rees Mogg, Boris and Ferage are men of the people keeps repeating the completely meaningless and empty line of out means out?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And completely missed the point. Let’s take your scenario and have £10k and no benefits as the status quo as EU members. Your assumption is that the government are going to negotiate a salary increase with benefits, that’s an assumption. Now let’s make another assumption. Let’s assume that what the government actually negotiates is a salary cut to £8K with still no benefits. Are you seriously suggesting that we should just accept that with no say because of the results of an advisory poll that suggested that we should renegotiate a salary deal even though we have the option to maintain the £10k no benefits status quo?

If the deal is the equivalent of your scenario it will get voted through. Hell, I’ll even vote for it myself. But if it’s the other scenario why should I lose the opportunity to reject it because some red faced, frothy mouthed moron who thinks Rees Mogg, Boris and Ferage are men of the people keeps repeating the completely meaningless and empty line of out means out?

The scenario as posited is more like stomping out of your current £40k pa job with benefits in a huff because you don't like the manager, while telling them to stick it when they say you can keep your job after all... or take a massive decrease.

But, again, that won't happen. The goivernment will negotiate the £50k pa salary, and everyone will be delighted.

 

[Grappa]

Years you've been nothing but a clueless buffoon. You're a laughable excuse.

And, it seems, a snowflake who wants to dish it out and spread nonsense about people, but can't handle it when people point out the truth of you.

Classic.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I’ve added the bit you missed of. The accommodating nature means that the impact on the EU financial sector is mitigated, the same cannot be said for the EU financial sector dealing in the EU. For our financial sector it will be a hard brexit, not so for the EU financial sector. I thought that was pretty clear in the article but you seemed to have missed it.

You admit & accept that the EU is deliberately trying to punish the UK then?

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[SkyblueBazza]

The scenario as posited is more like stomping out of your current £40k pa job with benefits in a huff because you don't like the manager, while telling them to stick it when they say you can keep your job after all... or take a massive decrease.

But, again, that won't happen. The goivernment will negotiate the £50k pa salary, and everyone will be delighted.

Oo-ooh let's hope so. That extra £10k will go down well.
Sadly your scenario like some of your arguments is quite convoluted, or there are bits missing. But for the record...if you don't like the manager, it would be likely that it is an unpleasant working environment - so I & many others would seek pastures new. So maybe it is a good analogy after-all?

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[skybluetony176]

You admit & accept that the EU is deliberately trying to punish the UK then?

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It’s nothing to do with the EU. It’s our rules and regulations that are going to allow this to happen not EU rules. Did you actually read the article?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

And completely missed the point. Let’s take your scenario and have £10k and no benefits as the status quo as EU members. Your assumption is that the government are going to negotiate a salary increase with benefits, that’s an assumption. Now let’s make another assumption. Let’s assume that what the government actually negotiates is a salary cut to £8K with still no benefits. Are you seriously suggesting that we should just accept that with no say because of the results of an advisory poll that suggested that we should renegotiate a salary deal even though we have the option to maintain the £10k no benefits status quo?

If the deal is the equivalent of your scenario it will get voted through. Hell, I’ll even vote for it myself. But if it’s the other scenario why should I lose the opportunity to reject it because some red faced, frothy mouthed moron who thinks Rees Mogg, Boris and Ferage are men of the people keeps repeating the completely meaningless and empty line of out means out?

You are missing the whole point though. You are happily living in fear of stepping out of what you see as a comfort-zone.

In the example, if the outcome was an £8k salary & no beneifts. I find the freedom to go find another better paid job empowering. The EU stifles such empowerment on many issues.

THAT is why the majority want out. You may be happy cow-towing all the time to what your darling EU say...because we make 1/27 noise in the EU. 1/27 of It's successes & failings are bourne by us. Out of it - we are masters of our own destiny...be it success, or failure.

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[skybluetony176]

Oo-ooh let's hope so. That extra £10k will go down well.
Sadly your scenario like some of your arguments is quite convoluted, or there are bits missing. But for the record...if you don't like the manager, it would be likely that it is an unpleasant working environment - so I & many others would seek pastures new. So maybe it is a good analogy after-all?

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It’s your scenario, not mine. Convoluted in your opinion seems to mean that I should accept your heavily loaded scenario without question. Your scenario suggests that we can only gain by leaving you’ve not allowed for the prospect of the final deal being a loss. I just brought balance to that.

In simpler terms what if the final deal includes free movement of people and a continuing of contributing to the EU? Do you not think that people who voted leave and saw these as so called red lines don’t deserve the opportunity to reject it? The brexit argument isn’t going to go away if the deal is rejected. A new deal will have to be negotiated that the majority will accept. That’s democracy.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Sadly your scenario like some of your arguments is quite convoluted

Well tbf it's your scenario, but thankyou for saying my arguments are nuanced, rather than just coming up with a line and sticking to it dogmatically, whatever's out in front

 

[skybluetony176]

You are missing the whole point though. You are happily living in fear of stepping out of what you see as a comfort-zone.

In the example, if the outcome was an £8k salary & no beneifts. I find the freedom to go find another better paid job empowering. The EU stifles such empowerment on many issues.

THAT is why the majority want out. You may be happy cow-towing all the time to what your darling EU say...because we make 1/27 noise in the EU. 1/27 of It's successes & failings are bourne by us. Out of it - we are masters of our own destiny...be it success, or failure.

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Darling EU? This is what makes you ridiculous. It’s straight from the train of thought that if you don’t follow Tommy Robinson unquestionably you must be a leftie, you can’t just be normal.

If the outcome is £8k no benefits and you go and look for another job the equivalent is leaving the EU and joining another trading block, which is not what we’re going to do. Your scenario is completely irrelevant to what we’re trying to achieve with Brexit.

 

[martcov]

Oo-ooh let's hope so. That extra £10k will go down well.
Sadly your scenario like some of your arguments is quite convoluted, or there are bits missing. But for the record...if you don't like the manager, it would be likely that it is an unpleasant working environment - so I & many others would seek pastures new. So maybe it is a good analogy after-all?

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You would. The manager, if equated to Juncker, is leaving in 2021. so you would be a prat giving up the job you have to go negotiating with the equivalent of Trump, who knowing you have no job lined up, would give you a worse deal than you had.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

It’s your scenario, not mine. Convoluted in your opinion seems to mean that I should accept your heavily loaded scenario without question. Your scenario suggests that we can only gain by leaving you’ve not allowed for the prospect of the final deal being a loss. I just brought balance to that.

In simpler terms what if the final deal includes free movement of people and a continuing of contributing to the EU? Do you not think that people who voted leave and saw these as so called red lines don’t deserve the opportunity to reject it? The brexit argument isn’t going to go away if the deal is rejected. A new deal will have to be negotiated that the majority will accept. That’s democracy.

No I don't see it as that. The original vote, which you would have applauded had it gone the other way, was not conditional. People want to apply conditions because the result doesn't suit them.

As for heavily loaded...I may be wrong, but you seem in favour of that as a deal outcome. Heavily loaded in favour of the EU so you can gloat that 'I told you we should have stayed in'

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[martcov]

You are missing the whole point though. You are happily living in fear of stepping out of what you see as a comfort-zone.

In the example, if the outcome was an £8k salary & no beneifts. I find the freedom to go find another better paid job empowering. The EU stifles such empowerment on many issues.

THAT is why the majority want out. You may be happy cow-towing all the time to what your darling EU say...because we make 1/27 noise in the EU. 1/27 of It's successes & failings are bourne by us. Out of it - we are masters of our own destiny...be it success, or failure.

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The majority don’t want to leave in the present mess according to polls, which is why support for a referendum on a known deal is growing. Your 1/27 is also crap as we have far more influence than, say, Estonia. Just you believing the crap from Eton old boys, a Dulwich old boy who was a NF Fan in his youth, and a part owner of hedge fund which choses to invest in markets such as Russia or the EU via Ireland, rather than in Brexit Britain.

We have no chance of being in control of our own destiny any more than we are now as we will have to trade according to WTO rules or sign up to trade deals with Trump, Australia, New Zealand of the Pacific partnership. The deals may not be as good as now via the EU, but even if so, we will have to agree to the terms of trade with any partner and have to accept decisions of some court in the case of disputes. We will have our own parliament and judiciary as we have now.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Darling EU? This is what makes you ridiculous. It’s straight from the train of thought that if you don’t follow Tommy Robinson unquestionably you must be a leftie, you can’t just be normal.

If the outcome is £8k no benefits and you go and look for another job the equivalent is leaving the EU and joining another trading block, which is not what we’re going to do. Your scenario is completely irrelevant to what we’re trying to achieve with Brexit.

No...the EU is your darling...it appears something you treasure.
Despite stating my case many times in this thread...I have had it continually eluded to that I am some sort of racist, a Farage supporter, UKIP voter & right-winger amongst other things. Some of them might (can't be arsed to check) have been from yourself. I could probably level a lot worse!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Well tbf it's your scenario, but thankyou for saying my arguments are nuanced, rather than just coming up with a line and sticking to it dogmatically, whatever's out in front

Yes...if ypu convolute stuff enough you will get everyone to agree. Bit like the EU really

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[skybluetony176]

No I don't see it as that. The original vote, which you would have applauded had it gone the other way, was not conditional. People want to apply conditions because the result doesn't suit them.

As for heavily loaded...I may be wrong, but you seem in favour of that as a deal outcome. Heavily loaded in favour of the EU so you can gloat that 'I told you we should have stayed in'

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A deal that’s heavily loaded in the favour of the EU I would vote against given the opportunity. It’s you who’s willing to accept it without a say in whether we should or not. You seem to want to hand me the opportunity to say I told you so while I myself are willing to reject that opportunity. Given the option.

 

[skybluetony176]

No...the EU is your darling...it appears something you treasure.
Despite stating my case many times in this thread...I have had it continually eluded to that I am some sort of racist, a Farage supporter, UKIP voter & right-winger amongst other things. Some of them might (can't be arsed to check) have been from yourself. I could probably level a lot worse!

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The EU is far from perfect. Don’t know how many times I’ve said that now. Just because I don’t think leaving is the answer to this imperfect world doesn’t make it my darling. Same as not swallowing everything Tommy Robinson spouts makes me a leftie.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

A deal that’s heavily loaded in the favour of the EU I would vote against given the opportunity. It’s you who’s willing to accept it without a say in whether we should or not. You seem to want to hand me the opportunity to say I told you so while I myself are willing to reject that opportunity. Given the option.

But the original vote was 'leave' - staying in was never going to end in what I would have of the EU being to move fairly & smoothly forward. Just like leaving isn't going to be some magical uptopia that 'leavers' have been accused of envisioning.
As a nation (or those that cared) - we decided we would be better off out. Not dependent on anything. Just out.

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[Grendel]

If this has suddenly become an analogy about middle management perhaps people wouldn’t want to stay on moral grounds and find what they are being told to do uncomfortable.

“Hey Boss that Greek chap who works in the basement is crying he can’t afford to live as our payday loan we gave him means we take more than he earns. Can we lay off him for a bit?”

“Are you for real? Who cares about scum like him? We need to pay for our Xmas party for the German directors and people like him are the problem. Tell him you’ll increase payments if he doesn’t get back in line”

“What about the Italian analyst? He wants a bit of a pay rise”

“I’ve told you before all Italians are lazy fuckers. Tell him to work harder. Actually call a meeting with him, the German and French board and let’s kick the shit out of him just for a laugh”

 

[skybluetony176]

But the original vote was 'leave' - staying in was never going to end in what I would have of the EU being to move fairly & smoothly forward. Just like leaving isn't going to be some magical uptopia that 'leavers' have been accused of envisioning.
As a nation (or those that cared) - we decided we would be better off out. Not dependent on anything. Just out.

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We didn’t vote leave at any cost. We voted leave on the understanding that leave would be better than remain. In the knowledge that that won’t be the case you want to deny people the right to reject it. Odd. Very odd. Turkeys voting for Xmas.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

We didn’t vote leave at any cost. We voted leave on the understanding that leave would be better than remain. In the knowledge that that won’t be the case you want to deny people the right to reject it. Odd. Very odd. Turkeys voting for Xmas.

Maybe we voted leave WHATEVER the shorter term financial cost, to set the nation up for future generations to prosper by gaining from their own success rather than giving (because I truly believe the EU would have been given a mandate to force their agenda on us more readily had the vote gone the other way) increasingly to support the less successful nations.

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[skybluetony176]

Maybe we voted leave WHATEVER the shorter term financial cost, to set the nation up for future generations to prosper by gaining from their own success rather than giving (because I truly believe the EU would have been given a mandate to force their agenda on us more readily had the vote gone the other way) increasingly to support the less successful nations.

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No one voted leave to be worse off unless they’re stupid. If the effects of brexit are irreversible we won’t be worse off short term we’ll just be worse off. You talk about setting up the younger generation but the younger generation wanted to remain so you’re being very disingenuous in claiming the vote leave was for them. As Ricky Gervais put it, we didn’t need a referendum to find out that the old hate the young. The EU can’t force anything on us. We have a veto. Anything that the EU has done our democratically elected government has agreed to it.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

No one voted leave to be worse off unless they’re stupid. If the effects of brexit are irreversible we won’t be worse off short term we’ll just be worse off. You talk about setting up the younger generation but the younger generation wanted to remain so you’re being very disingenuous in claiming the vote leave was for them. As Ricky Gervais put it, we didn’t need a referendum to find out that the old hate the young. The EU can’t force anything on us. We have a veto. Anything that the EU has done our democratically elected government has agreed to it.

But that is the point. If people perceive that future generations will be worse off by remaining - they will take the hit now for those future generations.

The simple fact is that nobody can say what the acual outcomes will be for fact. Not me, not you, not anyone (including Mart[arse]Cov) on this forum, not Farage, Boris, Barnier, Juncker nor Uncle Tom-cobbly & all.

Which is why my stance from day post the referendum has been 'let us just get on with it'!!!

And I was referring to the Royal 'we' before you start applying labels ir pigeon-holing me

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[skybluetony176]

NHS 'not prepared' for no-deal Brexit

 

[martcov]

But that is the point. If people perceive that future generations will be worse off by remaining - they will take the hit now for those future generations.

The simple fact is that nobody can say what the acual outcomes will be for fact. Not me, not you, not anyone (including Mart[arse]Cov) on this forum, not Farage, Boris, Barnier, Juncker nor Uncle Tom-cobbly & all.

Which is why my stance from day post the referendum has been 'let us just get on with it'!!!

And I was referring to the Royal 'we' before you start applying labels ir pigeon-holing me

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Your stance is stupid. You believe we should leave even if now more people want to remain and more want a second referendum than don’t want a second referendum. You actually believe that older leavers voted leave, prepared to take a knock, in order that younger people, who want to remain, will be better off by leaving. You are really weird. And if you want to go to name calling, let’s go for „skybluetozza“. Seems more appropriate.

 

[martcov]

If this has suddenly become an analogy about middle management perhaps people wouldn’t want to stay on moral grounds and find what they are being told to do uncomfortable.

“Hey Boss that Greek chap who works in the basement is crying he can’t afford to live as our payday loan we gave him means we take more than he earns. Can we lay off him for a bit?”

“Are you for real? Who cares about scum like him? We need to pay for our Xmas party for the German directors and people like him are the problem. Tell him you’ll increase payments if he doesn’t get back in line”

“What about the Italian analyst? He wants a bit of a pay rise”

“I’ve told you before all Italians are lazy fuckers. Tell him to work harder. Actually call a meeting with him, the German and French board and let’s kick the shit out of him just for a laugh”

Crap analogy. Your getting weirder by the day.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

NHS 'not prepared' for no-deal Brexit

Meanwhile, behind the usual sensationalist scare headline, the truth lurks:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

Simon Stevens said immediate planning was taking place around the supply of medicines and equipment.

"Nobody's pretending this is a desirable situation, but if that's where we get to it will not have been unforeseen," he said.

 

[martcov]

Meanwhile, behind the usual sensationalist scare headline, the truth lurks:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

Simon Stevens said immediate planning was taking place around the supply of medicines and equipment.

"Nobody's pretending this is a desirable situation, but if that's where we get to it will not have been unforeseen," he said.

The truth is we should not be in this situation. More costs. More work. No foreseeable advantage.

 

[clint van damme]

Meanwhile, behind the usual sensationalist scare headline, the truth lurks:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

Simon Stevens said immediate planning was taking place around the supply of medicines and equipment.

"Nobody's pretending this is a desirable situation, but if that's where we get to it will not have been unforeseen," he said.

read that properly and tell me you think this is a good situation.

"Simon Stevens said immediate planning was taking place around the supply of medicines and equipment."

"Nobody's pretending this is a desirable situation"

what positives are there in that?

We've gone from leavers on about free trade deals galore and 350 million a week for the NHS to them trying to put a positive spin on we're prepared for an emergency in less than a year.

 

[martcov]

read that properly and tell me you think this is a good situation.

"Simon Stevens said immediate planning was taking place around the supply of medicines and equipment."

"Nobody's pretending this is a desirable situation"

what positives are there in that?

We've gone from leavers on about free trade deals galore and 350 million a week for the NHS to them trying to put a positive spin on we're prepared for an emergency in less than a year.

Yes, I thought Sir Ernie had talked about sailing into a glorious future. I may have got him mixed up, but I remember saying watch out for rocks along the way. Farage has now pledged allegience to "leave means leave" and has said that he is prepared to pay any price to leave and that we must "believe in Britain". I don't believe that Farage will be paying any price personally whatever happens, and I don't find such comments reassuring for the rest of the population

 

[skybluetony176]

Brexit red line SACRIFICED as May to WATER DOWN free movement pledge threatening future

 

[skybluetony176]

Fishermen 'will not survive' Brexit no deal