The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (262 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the citizens of Europe are desperate to roll over and give a deal that is advantageous to the UK.

That is absolutely irrelevant

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[martcov]

That is absolutely irrelevant

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Crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzy!!!

 

[Astute]

You just praised him. Don’t know why if you are not a fan.

There is one massive difference between you and I.

I look at the good and the bad. I don't concentrate on the good or bad in anything unless using it to compare with what someone else is saying or to give information.

To you the EU is great and everything or anyone to do with Brexit is bad.

I would like to concentrate more on the bad sides of Brexit. But how can I when you and a few others either can't be truthful or are so one sided it is a wonder you can still stand up.

IF May wasn't the Tory leader and taking us through Brexit you would love her. She is a remainer that is doing a job against what she believes in. But because of the job she is doing she has become a target for you.

Moggy?

If he was a remainer he also would be great. But he is another target.

I don't trust any of them.

 

[Astute]

The EU elections are next year. Who voted for our top civil servant? Why was he appointed? How many candidates were there? What were the criteria for his selection?

You don’t even know his name, let alone have the slightest influence on his appointment. But, you went off on your red herring search because Juncker is leaving soon and you needed a new EU bogey man.

The person who is head of 33,000 civil servants is Selmayr. Think I have heard of him before.

 

[Astute]

It is even stranger that some think scandals only happen with foreigners in the EU.

Thanks for the lie.

More like those in the UK get prosecuted. Those in the EU get a top job, lots of money and a massive pension. And we help to pay for it.

 

[Astute]

Now May is promising to reduce corporation tax to keep investment coming. Will that increase revenue or merely make up for some of the lost investment because we are no longer a gateway to the EU? A previous sales point for investment in the UK. If we lose net tax revenue, then that would be the end of our „Brexit bonus“.

Remember when you said about the big tax giveaway to corporations? It raised tax paid and made jobs. When not part if the EU we can do the same. This is a main reason why the EU doesn't want to give us a deal. This would be our competitive advantage.

But you showed last time that you don't understand corporate tax and the implications.

 

[Monners]

Squabbling whilst Rome burns

 

[Astute]

Stop making stupid excuses for your stupid Brexit. The EU is calm and collected, United in it‘s negotiating position. Look at Britain. A mess. Both major parties split. Various views of how we should be negotiating on a subject which is interpreted differently by the people who voted for it.

You just spew Faragist cliches about „schackles“, „EU machine“ , the EU „denying it’s citizens to leave“. Pure crap, and you suggested that someone was a thick twat for not getting the crap you were going on about?

Now... tell us what your workable solution to the Brexit problem is, bearing in mind May‘s red lines, the GFA and the EU‘s rules of the SM and CU. If it’s good, email it to May. If it isn’t, then you have proved Brexit is a stupid idea.

It is you that needs to stop making stupid excuses for the EU. Then we could have a proper debate.

 

[Astute]

...and the ones who have been found guilty of breaking the law at the expense of the British taxpayer and sent to prison all support leave.

Just confirms what I’ve been saying all along doesn’t it? They’re all as bad as each other regardless of what EU country that they’re from and what their politics are. Still, at least you’re acknowledging that it’s not just the EU political institution who only does the dodgy things. We’ll call that progress.

Who is it you are talking about?

And do you Think it is good that nothing is ever properly done against those ripping off or defrauding the EU when they get prison in the UK?

 

[Astute]

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the citizens of Europe are desperate to roll over and give a deal that is advantageous to the UK.

Would you like to explain where the UK is after a deal that is advantageous to us other than paying billions a year into the EU like we do now.

A lot more jobs will be lost around the EU countries than in the UK if it all goes wrong. But yes ours is concentrated in one small area.

But it will be cheaper to produce many things here than in the EU if tariffs are put in place. But do we have the capabilities straight away?

Yes there are questions all over the place.

 

[Astute]

Well to make matters easier: I‘ll say I told you so now. It has been proven to be a mess. We haven’t left yet, but the writing’s on the wall.

„Little difficulty“ ROFL. We haven’t even got the basics settled over 2 years on. Wait until we leave.

I predicted a mess. It is a mess. It is likely to get worse before it, maybe, gets better. There was no desperate economic reason to leave. Any problems which now come along will probably be caused by Brexit ( or possibly Trump‘s elephant in a China shop policies).

But, it is a classic „blame the remainer‘ attitude. I didn’t want it. I didn’t want to have to say it is a mess. I am not gloating as I hope that common sense prevails and we withdraw article 50 asap.

Blame Juncker, blame Selmayr, blame remainers, blame Barnier, blame Macron, blame everyone in the EU.... but, at the end of the day ... the blame for this mess lies with the Brexit culprits. Not MartCov or the people I have mentioned.

Brexit culprits?

I'm sorry for even suggesting that the EU isn't perfect and how it is run could be part of the problem.

 

[skybluetony176]

Who is it you are talking about?

And do you Think it is good that nothing is ever properly done against those ripping off or defrauding the EU when they get prison in the UK?

Really not sure how to take that. It sounds like you’re saying that only U.K. MEP’s have been sent to jail for dodgy behaviour.

 

[Astute]

A rational thought?

What is the difference between someone who lives in Germany, someone who is moving to Italy and a UKIP voter?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Would you like to explain where the UK is after a deal that is advantageous to us other than paying billions a year into the EU like we do now.

A lot more jobs will be lost around the EU countries than in the UK if it all goes wrong. But yes ours is concentrated in one small area.

But it will be cheaper to produce many things here than in the EU if tariffs are put in place. But do we have the capabilities straight away?

Yes there are questions all over the place.

The thing is he went off on a tangent...or completely missed the point given La Maire's comment (""Any decision that gives European citizens the impression that you can leave the European Union and keep all the advantages would be suicidal")
It clearly indicates that Selmayr can call the shots. If people don't like the shots...they can vote down their local government...but they cannot defeat the will of the EUrocrats without something more significant

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[martcov]

There is one massive difference between you and I.

I look at the good and the bad. I don't concentrate on the good or bad in anything unless using it to compare with what someone else is saying or to give information.

To you the EU is great and everything or anyone to do with Brexit is bad.

I would like to concentrate more on the bad sides of Brexit. But how can I when you and a few others either can't be truthful or are so one sided it is a wonder you can still stand up.

IF May wasn't the Tory leader and taking us through Brexit you would love her. She is a remainer that is doing a job against what she believes in. But because of the job she is doing she has become a target for you.

Moggy?

If he was a remainer he also would be great. But he is another target.

I don't trust any of them.

That is just made up. I would not be interested in May one way or the other. Mogg, I don’t trust. He is a posh showman. I might laugh at his posh remarks, but I wouldn’t fall for his crap even if it was remain. He couldn’t be remain and be like he is. It would ruin his act.

To me the EU is a great idea and I acknowledge there is a long way to go to make it a great thing. I’m all for the evolution through correction of the EU. I am not a quitter in any sense.

In what way are we not truthful?

 

[skybluetony176]

But it will be cheaper to produce many things here than in the EU if tariffs are put in place. But do we have the capabilities straight away?

How does that work for a company like JLR for example who get almost half their components to build a car from outside of the U.K.? If they have components coming in from the EU it will have a tariff on it, if they then sell that car in the EU the car (including the components that already have one tariff imposed on them) will have a tariff applied to it. Them components will in effect have been double tariffed.

Mini is another. Forget the individual components just the engine before it even gets put in a car comes in and out of the country at least twice from memory while having various processes done to it. That’s 4 tariffs before its even been installed.

Have you factored any of that into your theory? It isn’t just the motor industry either. Manufacturing is essentially assembling components and I would doubt that there are many of any manufacturers in the U.K. who’s components originate solely in the U.K..

 

[Astute]

Really not sure how to take that. It sounds like you’re saying that only U.K. MEP’s have been sent to jail for dodgy behaviour.

They are MEP's and not MP's. If they were paid by the British government they wouldn't get away with it as easily.

 

[martcov]

A rational thought?

What is the difference between someone who lives in Germany, someone who is moving to Italy and a UKIP voter?

I would say general knowledge, a more travelled lifestyle giving more experience of migrants and migration, being migrants ourselves, over the stereotypical UKIPer.

The only absolute leaver that I know is my brother. Others in my UK family voted leave, but wouldn’t get into an argument about it, and are not fanatical. My brother travels a lot, but with a team and apart from ordering the natives around and eating expense account meals, has little experience of actually being a migrant. He is educated ( 3 degrees) and is an absolute leaver. Ex NF ( Farage was a NF Fan as a schoolboy), ex UKIP and ex Tory ( I think he has been thrown out a second time now ), so education is not necessarily a way of differentiating. I think the main difference is whether you are open minded and willing to see outside your little world. My brother is still 70s NF. Leave suits him down to the ground. He looks down on immigrants and feels superior being British. I don’t have that in me, and that appears to be the difference in our case. But that is only anecdotal.

 

[Astute]

That is just made up. I would not be interested in May one way or the other. Mogg, I don’t trust. He is a posh showman. I might laugh at his posh remarks, but I wouldn’t fall for his crap even if it was remain. He couldn’t be remain and be like he is. It would ruin his act.

To me the EU is a great idea and I acknowledge there is a long way to go to make it a great thing. I’m all for the evolution through correction of the EU. I am not a quitter in any sense.

In what way are we not truthful?

Underplaying what goes on with the EU and how it is run. Overstating what goes on in the UK.

But of course you will disagree.

 

[martcov]

The person who is head of 33,000 civil servants is Selmayr. Think I have heard of him before.

Really? I thought he was in Brussels not Whitehall. Who was the one in charge of the UK civil servants again? Can you vote him out?

 

[martcov]

Underplaying what goes on with the EU and how it is run. Overstating what goes on in the UK.

But of course you will disagree.

I disagree.

 

[martcov]

The thing is he went off on a tangent...or completely missed the point given La Maire's comment (""Any decision that gives European citizens the impression that you can leave the European Union and keep all the advantages would be suicidal")
It clearly indicates that Selmayr can call the shots. If people don't like the shots...they can vote down their local government...but they cannot defeat the will of the EUrocrats without something more significant

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Le Maire‘s comment was a part of his statement. The rest was that he said everyone wants a good deal, Chequers was a move in the right direction and he praised May‘s courage. He pointed out that there will be costs to Brexit for citizens... that is a fact. The 17,4 million leavers wanted that. The end of freedom of movement to Britain and for Brits to the EU ( or didn’t they realise that? I think that is why he mentioned it ). The „will of the people“ pillock! Not the will of the „Eurocrats“. Faragisms in every fxxking Post and total ignorance of what is happening around you.

 

[Astute]

How does that work for a company like JLR for example who get almost half their components to build a car from outside of the U.K.? If they have components coming in from the EU it will have a tariff on it, if they then sell that car in the EU the car (including the components that already have one tariff imposed on them) will have a tariff applied to it. Them components will in effect have been double tariffed.

Mini is another. Forget the individual components just the engine before it even gets put in a car comes in and out of the country at least twice from memory while having various processes done to it. That’s 4 tariffs before its even been installed.

Have you factored any of that into your theory? It isn’t just the motor industry either. Manufacturing is essentially assembling components and I would doubt that there are many of any manufacturers in the U.K. who’s components originate solely in the U.K..

JLR have been moving out of the UK for years.

But as I said it depends on several things. We have the expertise. But do we have the capacity straight away?

And it also depends on what sort of trade deal there is.

We could continue to guess all day long. But like for most problems it depends on the trade deal. And we are not allowed to talk trade.

 

[Astute]

I would say general knowledge, a more travelled lifestyle giving more experience of migrants and migration, being migrants ourselves, over the stereotypical UKIPer.

The only absolute leaver that I know is my brother. Others in my UK family voted leave, but wouldn’t get into an argument about it, and are not fanatical. My brother travels a lot, but with a team and apart from ordering the natives around and eating expense account meals, has little experience of actually being a migrant. He is educated ( 3 degrees) and is an absolute leaver. Ex NF ( Farage was a NF Fan as a schoolboy), ex UKIP and ex Tory ( I think he has been thrown out a second time now ), so education is not necessarily a way of differentiating. I think the main difference is whether you are open minded and willing to see outside your little world. My brother is still 70s NF. Leave suits him down to the ground. He looks down on immigrants and feels superior being British. I don’t have that in me, and that appears to be the difference in our case. But that is only anecdotal.

Are you telling me that people that are well travelled voted remain and those who have never left the UK voted leave? Or those who have travelled love the EU and those who haven't travelled can see it's faults?

I was a remainer. I can see the faults with the EU.

Have I travelled much?

 

[Astute]

Le Maire‘s comment was a part of his statement. The rest was that he said everyone wants a good deal, Chequers was a move in the right direction and he praised May‘s courage. He pointed out that there will be costs to Brexit for citizens... that is a fact. The 17,4 million leavers wanted that. The end of freedom of movement to Britain and for Brits to the EU ( or didn’t they realise that? I think that is why he mentioned it ). The „will of the people“ pillock! Not the will of the „Eurocrats“. Faragisms in every fxxking Post and total ignorance of what is happening around you.

The will of the majority. Not the will of the loudest or those who moan the most though.

 

[skybluetony176]

They are MEP's and not MP's. If they were paid by the British government they wouldn't get away with it as easily.

Still not sure what you’re saying. British and European MEP’s have been sent to jail for things like expense fraud and have had to pay it back as have British MP’s (although most of them were deselected, resigned, retired and got of so long as they paid some back). European MEP’s have also been sent to jail for things like cash for questions. Could be wrong but when we had the cash for questions scandal in Westminster I can’t recall and MP’s going to jail for doing the same.

If anything when you look at the cases it sounds like it’s harder to get away with in the EU. Certainly they seem to get treated harder when caught.

 

[skybluetony176]

JLR have been moving out of the UK for years.

But as I said it depends on several things. We have the expertise. But do we have the capacity straight away?

And it also depends on what sort of trade deal there is.

We could continue to guess all day long. But like for most problems it depends on the trade deal. And we are not allowed to talk trade.

It’s not just JLR.

We have plenty of expertise in the U.K. on that we’ll agree.

Capacity isn’t the only issue. If there’s components needed in this country for manufacturing that aren’t manufactured in this country that’s a whole different ball park. Sure we could open up factories to make every little widget, grommet and whatever but that’s going to take investment. Not only that it needs to be viable. Viability is part of the reason we don’t make every little widget, grommet or whatever and import them instead and why we also export components to countries where it’s not viable to make a component that we do.

 

[Sick Boy]

That is absolutely irrelevant

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Riiiiiight.

 

[Sick Boy]

Would you like to explain where the UK is after a deal that is advantageous to us other than paying billions a year into the EU like we do now.

A lot more jobs will be lost around the EU countries than in the UK if it all goes wrong. But yes ours is concentrated in one small area.

But it will be cheaper to produce many things here than in the EU if tariffs are put in place. But do we have the capabilities straight away?

Yes there are questions all over the place.

Yep, cheaper to produce stuff and lots of deregulation, everyone is going to have to make sacrifices to make Britain great again etc etc.

 

[Astute]

Yep, cheaper to produce stuff and lots of deregulation, everyone is going to have to make sacrifices to make Britain great again etc etc.

So why is that?

Would you like to explain what nobody else knows about?

 

[Astute]

Still not sure what you’re saying. British and European MEP’s have been sent to jail for things like expense fraud and have had to pay it back as have British MP’s (although most of them were deselected, resigned, retired and got of so long as they paid some back). European MEP’s have also been sent to jail for things like cash for questions. Could be wrong but when we had the cash for questions scandal in Westminster I can’t recall and MP’s going to jail for doing the same.

If anything when you look at the cases it sounds like it’s harder to get away with in the EU. Certainly they seem to get treated harder when caught.

Seen as more serious in the EU than UK?

Show me what you know. This will be fun.

 

[Astute]

Really? I thought he was in Brussels not Whitehall. Who was the one in charge of the UK civil servants again? Can you vote him out?

Certainly can't with Selmayr as he has the job for life. And he is in charge of much more.

So come out with your point and show evidence for once.

 

[Sick Boy]

So why is that?

Would you like to explain what nobody else knows about?

If you honestly believes that long term there won't be a reduction in regulations and hard won benefits then you'll be in for a surprise.

 

[martcov]

Certainly can't with Selmayr as he has the job for life. And he is in charge of much more.

So come out with your point and show evidence for once.

My point is the UK equivalent is not elected, you don’t know anything about him and you cannot vote against him if you find out he only got the job through e.g. his old school tie. You can’t even name him. Yet you criticise the EU procedures as being undemocratic.

 

[Astute]

If you honestly believes that long term there won't be a reduction in regulations and hard won benefits then you'll be in for a surprise.

So where is your evidence?

A lot of EU regulations are ignored by countries in the EU. Yet our standards in quite a few are better.

Yet our standards will definitely be lower once we leave?