The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (154 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

Why do you always try and make out that I have said what I haven't? Or would you like to point out where I have said that Germany wants to leave the EU.

Merkel has run Germany under coalitions for years. But both sides of this coalition are losing votes like never before. Voters are changing who they vote for in most countries of the EU. This is what I have said. I haven't said any of them want to leave the EU either before you try that one. But it seems like people have had enough of something. Would you like to take a guess at what?

I'd say it is likely due to her handling of the Syrian situation in 2015, which is in relation to their domestic policy.

 

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[Sick Boy]

The AFD wants to return to the National currency and abandon the Euro

Do they look like actually getting into power any time soon?

 

[martcov]

Why do you always try and make out that I have said what I haven't? Or would you like to point out where I have said that Germany wants to leave the EU.

Merkel has run Germany under coalitions for years. But both sides of this coalition are losing votes like never before. Voters are changing who they vote for in most countries of the EU. This is what I have said. I haven't said any of them want to leave the EU either before you try that one. But it seems like people have had enough of something. Would you like to take a guess at what?

1. in the East they are still smarting over the influx of ‚muslim’ migrants which they had never had before. In the West not as much, but still a section of the population sees that as bad and as Merkel‘s fault.

2. they are sick and tired of the coalition as neither side is particularly happy with having to accommodate the other. The voters cannot distinguish between the major parties.

3. the infighting in the Union of CDU and CSU with Seehofer trying to profile the CSU at the expense of Merkel showed a lack of unity.

4. the old coalition partner, FDP, sees itself as pushed back in favour of a closer relationship to the greens by Merkel. Which is why they torpedoed the possible Jamaica coalition after the election. This weakened Merkel as it meant more of the same - CDU / CSU / SPD.

 

[martcov]

The AFD wants to return to the National currency and abandon the Euro

That is one reason they are 12,5 %.

Most of their supporters don’t read the small print anyway. They want an end to ‚muslim‘ immigration and Merkel. The rest is incidental.

 

[Grendel]

Do they look like actually getting into power any time soon?

That’s hardly the point is it. It shows growing anti eu sentiment

 

[Sick Boy]

That’s hardly the point is it. It shows growing anti eu sentiment

Or an anti-Islam point of view or anti gay marriage etc etc

 

[Grendel]

Or an anti-Islam point of view or anti gay marriage etc etc

No it’s a rise in nationalism directly due to the federal control of nation states from Brussels

 

[Sick Boy]

No it’s a rise in nationalism directly due to the federal control of nation states from Brussels

You hope.

From what I can see it is more anti-Muslim, anti-refugee rhetoric.

 

[Grendel]

You hope.

From what I can see it is more anti-Muslim, anti-refugee rhetoric.

I don’t hope but deny the obvious at your peril

 

[Sick Boy]

I don’t hope but deny the obvious at your peril

As I said, it's more in relation to Islam in Europe and refugees coming to Germany in 2015.

 

[Grendel]

As I said, it's more in relation to Islam in Europe and refugees coming to Germany in 2015.

It isn’t - pretty much anyone who has explored this subject accepts there is a direct link to the rejection of being controlled by the EU

Keep kidding yourself

 

[Sick Boy]

It isn’t - pretty much anyone who has explored this subject accepts there is a direct link to the rejection of being controlled by the EU

Keep kidding yourself

So their own manifesto is centred around leaving the EU, yeah right.

 

[Grendel]

So their own manifesto is centred around leaving the EU, yeah right.

Everyone is aimed at leaving the euro and having border controls against freedom of movement

 

[martcov]

Nothing to do with the borders being open once in the EU?

And I suppose open borders inside the EU has nothing to do with the EU?

Open borders make life a lot easier. I do a lot of driving through Europe. But you can't pretend that it doesn't bring problems. And to solve this problem they are causing more. There is no easy answer.

One more thing. Why didn't the votes for her plummet after the event and not wait until now?

There is no rush to close Schengen borders. The EU is increasing control on the external borders.

 

[martcov]

Everyone is aimed at leaving the euro and having border controls against freedom of movement

No they are not.

 

[martcov]

That’s hardly the point is it. It shows growing anti eu sentiment

No it doesn’t. They are primarily anti refugees and anti Merkel. There are a mixed bag of other agendas including the one to smash the existing state and go to „retribalising“ in Europe. That is Björn Höcke. He represents the extreme right of the AfD. Others say that Merkel leaving in three years is job done.

 

[martcov]

It isn’t - pretty much anyone who has explored this subject accepts there is a direct link to the rejection of being controlled by the EU

Keep kidding yourself

You talk some bollocks. I live here and no one in my area mentions the EU. It is not a prime reason for voting anything. The AfD is anti muslim migrants and Merkel. People I know in the East asked me to join the Pegida marches. They are not against EU migrants.

 

[martcov]

No it’s a rise in nationalism directly due to the federal control of nation states from Brussels

What bollocks. They were nothing before 2015. Which event happened in Germany in 2015? Where was their last demo and what was it about? I‘ll help. It was Freiburg yesterday. What did they chant? I‘ll help. „Festung Europa“. „Festung“ means fortress. Doesn’t tie up with your crap. More let’s build a wall round the EU. Not destroy the EU.

 

[martcov]

Everyone is aimed at leaving the euro and having border controls against freedom of movement

As it said on a placard last night in Freiburg „Wie dumm is eigentlich die Frage, wenn die AfD die Antwort ist?“.

Seeing as you think the answer to the anti EU question is AfD, the saying fits you perfectly.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

looks like Germany have had enough now too

Herr Merkel and her liberal allies took a heavy smashing in the latest elections. The AFD also took 12% of the regional seats for the first time.

Merkel's support collapses and her opposition consolidates power!

"Both the parties in German Chancellor Angela Merkel's governing coalition have suffered heavy losses in a regional election, early results show."

12% is hardly enough to say anything beyond their support has grown tbh. Mind you some on here would argue they hadn't majority support if they had 52%!

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[SkyblueBazza]

So borders have stopped the refugee train that’s sweeping its way to the USA now? The problem was that that the people were motivated to make the journey regardless of how perilous that was of the back of what Merkel said.

The votes plummeted at the first opportunity there was to vote.

5200 troops as I heard on the radio this morning being sent to the border suggests that not too many will actually get in.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Or an anti-Islam point of view or anti gay marriage etc etc

Don't break rank! Mart will have your guts for garters for suggesting growing discriminatory attitudes in Germany. Start making your excuses now if I were you.

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[skybluetony176]

5200 troops as I heard on the radio this morning being sent to the border suggests that not too many will actually get in.

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Just watching channel 4 news and they’re saying that they only have to reach the border to claim asylum not cross it and under international law the US has to process the applications for asylum.

Not the point I was making anyway. The point I was making that the suggestion that if there wasn’t open borders in the EU they wouldn’t get to Germany is nonsense. Crossing closed borders between Honduras and Mexico doesn’t seem to be an issue so why would crossing closed borders in the EU prove to be an issue? It also ignores that closed borders or not the most difficult part of any asylum seeker, illegal immigrant or whatever tag you want to give them is the sea crossing to get to mainland Europe. If they can do the sea crossing I’m sure walking across fields isn’t going to be too troublesome. Closed borders or not.

 

[Sick Boy]

Don't break rank! Mart will have your guts for garters for suggesting growing discriminatory attitudes in Germany. Start making your excuses now if I were you.

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There's always been bigotry in all countries, it's nothing new.

 

[Astute]

There's always been bigotry in all countries, it's nothing new.

I'm amazed that you think most people are happy with the EU.

Maybe you will change your mind when you finally move to Italy.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm amazed that you think most people are happy with the EU.

Maybe you will change your mind when you finally move to Italy.

I'm amazed you can link everything domestic related to the anti-EU sentiment. Where's the demand and admiration across the EU for what Britain is doing?

What gives you the impression that majorities in Germany and Italy want to leave the EU?

I lived in Italy for over 3 years before in both the deep south and deep north and the only anti-EU beliefs I heard were from self-proclaimed fascists.

 

[Astute]

I'm amazed you can link everything domestic related to the anti-EU sentiment.

You twist my words to say what you want them to. Just like earlier when you said that I had made a comment about Germany wanting to leave the EU. I am still waiting for you to show everyone where I said it.

But back to you. If anyone says about people not happy with the EU you jump straight down their throats and make out they are wrong. So how about the people of Italy?

Italy most adrift from EU, study finds

 

[Sick Boy]

You twist my words to say what you want them to. Just like earlier when you said that I had made a comment about Germany wanting to leave the EU. I am still waiting for you to show everyone where I said it.

But back to you. If anyone says about people not happy with the EU you jump straight down their throats and make out they are wrong. So how about the people of Italy?

Twisting words? You're a master of doing it yourself. What about the people of Italy? What will I change my mind about in a country I visit 4 or 5 times a year and have lived in before? What greater insight do you have?

In reply to your link, I have plenty speak about reform and countries like the UK, Germany and France taking a share of refugees in, but there's not widespread amounts in favour for leaving. There are those hardcore long term Salvini voters from the party's La Lega Nord days who probably want to leave but they also want to leave the country of Italy.

Salvini has attracted voters who had previously no intention of voting for him due to stoking up fears around refugees/migrants. He goes on social media highlighting any crime or rape carried out by someone who doesn't have white skin, while conviniently ignoring abhorrent crimes carried out by white Italians, including the gang rape of a British woman.

 

[Astute]

Twisting words? You're a master of doing it yourself. What about the people of Italy? What will I change my mind about in a country I visit 4 or 5 times a year and have lived in before? What greater insight do you have?

In reply to your link, I have plenty speak about reform and countries like the UK, Germany and France taking a share of refugees in, but there's not widespread amounts in favour for leaving. There are those hardcore long term Salvini voters from the party's La Lega Nord days who probably want to leave but they also want to leave the country of Italy.

Salvini has attracted voters who had previously no intention of voting for him due to stoking up fears around refugees/migrants. He goes on social media highlighting any crime or rape carried out by someone who doesn't have white skin, while conviniently ignoring abhorrent crimes carried out by white Italians, including the gang rape of a British woman.

So where did I say that there is a widespread wanting to leave the EU?

But it is growing throughout the EU. This is what you deny. People are voting against those who even run the strongest countries in the EU. You even try to deny this or blame anything but how the EU is run.

 

[Sick Boy]

So where did I say that there is a widespread wanting to leave the EU?

But it is growing throughout the EU. This is what you deny. People are voting against those who even run the strongest countries in the EU. You even try to deny this or blame anything but how the EU is run.

You are aware that it's entirely possible for a country to vote in another leader and it being unconnected to the EU?

This has been the narrative put forward continually by the likes of the Express and the Sun since 2016, and we're still for the first country to even seriously discuss holding a referendum.

First it was supposed to be Holland, Austria, France and I even saw it touted that little old Ireland would forced to leave.

 

[martcov]

I'm amazed that you think most people are happy with the EU.

Maybe you will change your mind when you finally move to Italy.

Most people are happy with the EU according to polls all over the EU. More so since Brexit. Most people think that the UK has lost the plot.

 

[martcov]

So where did I say that there is a widespread wanting to leave the EU?

But it is growing throughout the EU. This is what you deny. People are voting against those who even run the strongest countries in the EU. You even try to deny this or blame anything but how the EU is run.

It is the opposite. The biggest boost in support for the EU was Brexit.

No one in Germany is debating the EU.

 

[Astute]

You are aware that it's entirely possible for a country to vote in another leader and it being unconnected to the EU?

This has been the narrative put forward continually by the likes of the Express and the Sun since 2016, and we're still for the first country to even seriously discuss holding a referendum.

First it was supposed to be Holland, Austria, France and I even saw it touted that little old Ireland would forced to leave.

You are aware that EU rules cause problems for the leaders of countries in the EU I take it.

You are totally against the austerity measures taken out in recent years in the UK. Nobody could be in doubt of this fact. I am not happy with it myself. But borrowing against GDP is down. That will be good for the future. At least we have the UK government to blame.

So onto austerity measures that have something to do with the EU. How about Greece? They have reduced pensions and many more brought in. They were under the instructions of the EU. How about Italy? Who are the Italians blaming for the state of the country? Look at Rome. Piles of rubbish all over the place. Busses bursting into flames through lack of maintenance. And the EU is trying to force austerity measures on Italy. But by what you are saying nobody will blame the EU. Maybe nobody blames the EU in either country for the immigrants being stranded in both countries. Maybe they are happy with the words but lack of action from the EU.

I suppose everyone in Hungary are happy about having rules forced upon them. Will they blame their leader or the EU?

Hungarian PM vows to continue battle with EU over migration

So no SB. Not everyone is happy with the EU. Take your blinkers off. Unease against the EU is growing. It is even growing in Germany. Yet it is just brushed off as a few racists.

The EU needs to reform. And it needs to do it quickly. They need to stop looking after their own interests and start looking after the interests of the people of the EU. Otherwise unrest will continue to grow.

 

[The Lurker]

Most people are happy with the EU according to polls all over the EU. More so since Brexit. Most people think that the UK has lost the plot.

polls mean sweet fa. look at brexit all the polls had remain winning yet lost. you rarely deal with facts just assumptions. all anti eu parties across Europe are gaining. that mart is a fact

 

[martcov]

You are aware that EU rules cause problems for the leaders of countries in the EU I take it.

You are totally against the austerity measures taken out in recent years in the UK. Nobody could be in doubt of this fact. I am not happy with it myself. But borrowing against GDP is down. That will be good for the future. At least we have the UK government to blame.

So onto austerity measures that have something to do with the EU. How about Greece? They have reduced pensions and many more brought in. They were under the instructions of the EU. How about Italy? Who are the Italians blaming for the state of the country? Look at Rome. Piles of rubbish all over the place. Busses bursting into flames through lack of maintenance. And the EU is trying to force austerity measures on Italy. But by what you are saying nobody will blame the EU. Maybe nobody blames the EU in either country for the immigrants being stranded in both countries. Maybe they are happy with the words but lack of action from the EU.

I suppose everyone in Hungary are happy about having rules forced upon them. Will they blame their leader or the EU?

Hungarian PM vows to continue battle with EU over migration

So no SB. Not everyone is happy with the EU. Take your blinkers off. Unease against the EU is growing. It is even growing in Germany. Yet it is just brushed off as a few racists.

The EU needs to reform. And it needs to do it quickly. They need to stop looking after their own interests and start looking after the interests of the people of the EU. Otherwise unrest will continue to grow.

You say austerity was good for the UK as borrowing is down. But it is bad for Italy because the EU wants Italy to keep borrowing to a minimum?

The Troika of creditors tried to control Greek borrowing, not just the EU.

Italy is part of an agreed monetary union and Italy is therefore one of the countries trying to control it’s borrowing.

The reforms the EU need are fiscal reforms such as a fiscal union with some of transfer system, and migration reforms in order that there are legal migration routes and stronger external borders. This relies on cooperation. Your corrupt example, Orban, is a blocker not a reformer. The right of AfD want Europe to retribalise. Also not reformers in a rational sense, unless you think that going back to possible tribal wars is a good thing.

Who is looking after their own interests? The EU is looking after the 27 countries interests represented in the decision making process of EU parliament, council and executive. Orban is looking after his and his family and friends‘ interests. People are not happy about that. Not the best example of the „evil“ EU.