The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

[dutchman]

The problem is that I'm falling to bits.

A bit like the EU then!

 

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[Astute]

The behaviour of the EU in all this has not sat right with me for months now. Their blatant policy to try and overturn the democratic vote by stalling and rejecting almost everything shows a desperation by people who have gained way too much power, way too quickly. I don't like how they have tried to interfere in Italy, Hungary, Greece and Portugal etc either, they were not set up to be overlords, they were set up to organise a common market for a small collection of countries.

And this is the point that makes me look anti EU.

We joined a common market. It ended up changing the UK for ever as it changed from being a place where you bought and sold goods to each other to something that makes rules and regulations for countries. It decided who can live where. That decision has been taken away from countries in the EU.

In principle the EU is a very good idea. It is the way it is now run that is wrong. Bad moves/decisions can't be removed as they make sure those that get a top job won't rock the boat.

The EU needs a total overhaul. But it won't as those at the top have full control.

 

[dutchman]

The EU needs a total overhaul.

It needs destroying, by force if necessary!

 

[Astute]

It needs destroying, by force if necessary!

It needs to be run for the benefit of the population of those in the EU. But it is more of a benefit to those who run it more than anything else.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Personally, at the moment, I couldn't vote remain in a 2nd referendum even though I think remain is the correct choice because it doesn't sit right with me having a 2nd referendum

Fair play Clint

 

[martcov]

This stuff has always happened in that rat pit called the ' City '

Of course it has, but this is more than that. People think they have given the power once in their life. Bollocks. It is an ideological thing. Free market capitalism without the checks by regulations and rights such as paid holiday and NHS. The EI is in the way of that, hence the dark money and think tanks sponsored by billionaires. Whilst we debate some are making killing after killing. Davis already in the USA at the agriculture ministry. Where was he when he was supposed to be negotiating with the EU? No percentage there. Not interested. Who is Singham? Ex Washington lobbyist on tour there with our politicians.

 

[martcov]

Luckily he has been shown to be all mouth in all of this and is yet to put forward any sort of viable solution to anything.

Yes, but he has talked to Bannon and is the leader of a group which is funded by US money. He is not working for the people who voted leave.

 

[martcov]

Indeed. Like assisting Romania in infrastructure projects as an EU net contributor

They needed new roads etc. They were impoverished. They are part of Europe and the better off Europe is, the better off we are. I don’t begrudge Romania a cent, but I don’t like some of their gipsies who abuse the system.

 

[martcov]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, that's what the welfare state is for, back up for the genuinely needy, temporarily for some, long term for the most vulnerable. Thing is you earlier dismissed 1.4 billion in benefit fraud like it didn't matter, yes it fucking does.......two wrongs don't make a right......I'm right with you on tax avoidance, its disgusting !

Tax evasion by people who use tax havens and have holding companies in other countries which are used to disguise profits by internal billing is the problem. We don’t all pay the same tax. E.g. I now someone who earns a packet with SAP. He gets half here and picks the rest up in dollars in the Cayman Isles. How much is he ripping the state of for in comparison to someone ripping benefits off? Far more I would say, but let’s attack the poor.. the wealthy are taking far more and getting away with it.

 

[martcov]

Tax avoidance is legal - my pension will be constructed so I can draw £3,000 a month tax free for life regardless what I earn elsewhere.

That’s perfectly legitimate.

Depends how it is constructed doesn’t it?

 

[martcov]

This stuff has always happened in that rat pit called the ' City '

Not this stuff though:

Emails reveal Arron Banks’ links to Steve Bannon in quest for campaign cash

 

[SkyblueBazza]

• Man made climate change first kicked off in the industrial revolution. Since populations and technology have advanced tremendously since then, the effects have surged in the past 30-40 years because few people at the time cared. Weather records are being broken every year now and sooner or later parts of the world will become uninhabitable. We are very close to if not already past the point of no return on this.
• War has been with us for thousands of years. However the need to play world police has meant a litany of failed interventions in one particular region which has destabilised it and turned Islamic extremism into a security threat and a cause of multiple humanitarian crises. Nobody objected to raising armies to defeat Hitler. But Labour and Tory politicians of the '80s through to '10s have committed us to invasions of far flung places which present no threat.
• Jobs are less secure, less likely to meet high living costs and are harder to come by. There is no job for life as there once used to be and at 28 I am already on my 4th. When I left school in 2008 it was at the height of the worst recession since 1929-where exactly could I have found employment instead of going to university at that time? More to the point, are you saying that the young people of today should accept being ripped off to the hilt to pursue higher education?

Yes historically generations have had things easier than the ones before them. But this time we have reached the critical mass of climate change, poor economic management and failed military interventions. And you can add Brexit to the pile as well.

Man made climate change probably began the day man discovered how to make fire.

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[SkyblueBazza]

The recessions in the 70's and 80's were worse

UK recessions since 1945: how they compare

Those who bought a house and managed to keep paying when mortgage rates went up to about 15%........Yes 15% and not record low levels like now and with mass unemployment.

Older generations had it easier? Would you like to explain how you came to this point? The biggest difference is pensions. You can say thanks to Gordon Brown for the demise of the final salary pensions.

And how do you blame the certain generations you are having another dig at for global warming? What information did they ignore? Look at how many cars were on the road then and now. Look at how many people flew then and now. How about the catastrophic pollution which is made in the name of battery and wind power production. Fracking isn't that good either.

When I was a kid double glazing and central heating was new. Hardly anyone had it. You had to wrap up inside your house when the weather got bad. Shopping cost more as there wasn't an over supply of supermarkets like there is now. A lot more if income went on food. Just like it did if you could afford to run a car. And they were not reliable either. University was mainly for the rich and well off only.

I have constantly said that I am worried for the youth of today. But don't try to make out that all generations before had it easy because they didn't. I had to work 6 or 7 days a week and study at the same time. And that was working at least 12 hours a day. No holiday pay.

Have you asked the older generations how hard life was? Yes it got better over the years. But it was easy because life was so hard.

This is it...the younger generation are the first to be worse off then the one before apparently. What is the measure though? Money probably.
There is the problem...people with lots of money want somebody to address the younger generation's reduced wealth...because that means their own growth in wealth is impacted.

Quailty of life is a better measure. I suspect all things considered - their QoL is slightly better than the previous generation.

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[Grendel]

This is it...the younger generation are the first to be worse off then the one before apparently. What is the measure though? Money probably.
There is the problem...people with lots of money want somebody to address the younger generation's reduced wealth...because that means their own growth in wealth is impacted.

Quailty of life is a better measure. I suspect all things considered - their QoL is slightly better than the previous generation.

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Most people were not impacted by the 2008 recession at all. To suggest it was worse in terms of impact on individuals compared to the 70’s and 80’s slumps is sneering middle class ignorance

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I'm going to stay up now for the cricket.

What is it? That weird noise they make rubbing their wings together that you like?

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[SkyblueBazza]

Some things you can figure out for yourself, well, some people can.

And many only figure what they want to figure to suit their own perception

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[SkyblueBazza]

Why would there need to be another anti-EU party when there is UKIP?

The Labour & Tory anti-EU brigade could never join UKIP having continuously accused the party of being right-wing extremists &/or out & out racists could they.

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[martcov]

The Labour & Tory anti-EU brigade could never join UKIP having continuously accused the party of being right-wing extremists &/or out & out racists could they.

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We already have the Heritage Foundation paying for people like Mogg’s group and Davis. Davis has told Foundation that May‘s plan will be stopped, reversed and replaced. They are the party that counts. Notice Davis has no problem turning up to meetings of Foundation, but was hardly there in Europe.

How many people voted for a billionaires‘ fund to pull the strings?

Democracy innit.

 

[oucho]

First post on this thread despite it being thousands of posts long. My biggest issue on Brexit is irritation at those who call for another referendum, pretending it's a democratic necessity but really only because they can't think of another way of cancelling Brexit. I was in favour of Remain but I do think that, on the basis that the 2016 vote was advertised as the final decision (a people's vote, you might say) it should be carried out. Certainly the Remainers would be insisting on remaining if they had won in 2016, you can hardly see the saying "well, it wasn't binding so the government is free to declare Article 50 with parliamentary approval, go for it"....would they fuck.

 

[Westendlad]

First post on this thread despite it being thousands of posts long. My biggest issue on Brexit is irritation at those who call for another referendum, pretending it's a democratic necessity but really only because they can't think of another way of cancelling Brexit. I was in favour of Remain but I do think that, on the basis that the 2016 vote was advertised as the final decision (a people's vote, you might say) it should be carried out. Certainly the Remainers would be insisting on remaining if they had won in 2016, you can hardly see the saying "well, it wasn't binding so the government is free to declare Article 50 with parliamentary approval, go for it"....would they fuck.

The remain voters don't a shite about anyone else or the country but themselves........Horrible little greedy bastards.

 

[oucho]

The remain voters don't a shite about anyone else or the country but themselves........Horrible little greedy bastards.

Without agreeing with that sentiment, there's an alternative reality where Remain won 52-48 and Remainers sneer at the likes of Farage for campaigning to overturn the result, saying 'why can't you respect the will of the people in a democratic vote?'. Such people are the same sneering at Farage and Co now for saying '''why can't you accept the will of the people in a democratic vote'....double standards

 

[Sick Boy]

The remain voters don't a shite about anyone else or the country but themselves........Horrible little greedy bastards.

Absolute nonsense.

Most remainers genuinely believe that Brexit will have a negative effect on the country, surely if they didn't care about the country then they should be all for Brexit?

Those politicians who have instigated Brexit have very little interest in improving the lives of those who have been neglected.

 

[Sick Boy]

Without agreeing with that sentiment, there's an alternative reality where Remain won 52-48 and Remainers sneer at the likes of Farage for campaigning to overturn the result, saying 'why can't you respect the will of the people in a democratic vote?'. Such people are the same sneering at Farage and Co now for saying '''why can't you accept the will of the people in a democratic vote'....double standards

Then on the night of the vote Farage said that if Remain were to win 52-48, then the 'fight' would carry on as it wouldn't have been clear enough. Funnily enough, he went quiet about it once Leave won.

 

[oucho]

Then on the night of the vote Farage said that if Remain were to win 52-48, then the 'fight' would carry on as it wouldn't have been clear enough. Funnily enough, he went quiet about it once Leave won.

So you agree with me that die hard Remainers are displaying a Farage-level degree of stupidly/shamelessness.

 

[Westendlad]

Absolute nonsense.

Most remainers genuinely believe that Brexit will have a negative effect on the country, surely if they didn't care about the country then they should be all for Brexit?

Those politicians who have instigated Brexit have very little interest in improving the lives of those who have been neglected.

And the leavers genuinely believe that Brexit would have a positive effect on the country........We could go on and on and on.

 

[Sick Boy]

So you agree with me that die hard Remainers are displaying a Farage-level degree of stupidly/shamelessness.

How is it stupidity for saying what you believe in? More and more people are realising that the promises made by the likes of Johnson, Gove etc are simply undeliverable.

 

[martcov]

First post on this thread despite it being thousands of posts long. My biggest issue on Brexit is irritation at those who call for another referendum, pretending it's a democratic necessity but really only because they can't think of another way of cancelling Brexit. I was in favour of Remain but I do think that, on the basis that the 2016 vote was advertised as the final decision (a people's vote, you might say) it should be carried out. Certainly the Remainers would be insisting on remaining if they had won in 2016, you can hardly see the saying "well, it wasn't binding so the government is free to declare Article 50 with parliamentary approval, go for it"....would they fuck.

No, but as Farage said a 52:48 loss means work to be done. As it happened he won and he is now of a different opinion. The way Brexit has pannrd out has put the whole economy is in jitters. Shares and currency are volatile. More is coming about the connections between Banks, Farage, Trump and Bannon. This was never about the problems people thought were there because of EU membership. It’s about making the UK into an American style economy. Winner takes all and fxxk the losers. Total con that must be reversed.

 

[Sick Boy]

No, but as Farage said a 52:48 loss means work to be done. As it happened he won and he is now of a different opinion. The way Brexit has pannrd out has put the whole economy is in jitters. Shares and currency are volatile. More is coming about the connections between Banks, Farage, Trump and Bannon. This was never about the problems people thought were there because of EU membership. It’s about making the UK into an American style economy. Winner takes all and fxxk the losers. Total con that must be reversed.

Despite what some will claim, those seeking a hard Brexit are very much in the minority over here. The overall mood on it has started to shift.

 

[martcov]

The remain voters don't a shite about anyone else or the country but themselves........Horrible little greedy bastards.

No. If you listen to remainers they are concerned for the future and for the chaos that will happen, particularly with the ports in a no dealscenario. Why would think they are greedy? Look at people like Banks, Farage, Mogg etc., are you naive enough to think that you are anything more than cannon fodder to achieve what they and their backers want? Deregulation and an end of e.g. guaranteed paid holidays , maximum working hours etc..

 

[Sick Boy]

No. If you listen to remainers they are concerned for the future and for the chaos that will happen, particularly with the ports in a no dealscenario. Why would think they are greedy? Look at people like Banks, Farage, Mogg etc., are you naive enough to think that you are anything more than cannon fodder to achieve what they and their backers want? Deregulation and an end of e.g. guaranteed paid holidays , maximum working hours etc..

According to Toby Young on Question Time it's the remainers fault that Brexit ha not been a success so far, depressingly it's always going to be someone else's fault.

 

[martcov]

Despite what some will claim, those seeking a hard Brexit are very much in the minority over here. The overall mood on it has started to shift.

Expect Breitbart, the Brexitpress and the leading figures to up the lies and smears of their opponents. WTF are Davis, Singham ( where did he come from- Gove says he is an expert on trade, but I checked his company out... £106,00 of assets, a few thousand liabilities and his mother is a director. Who is behind him? ) doing in the USA? Fox is also big into the Heritage Foundation. They and other think tanks want the „social democratic“ ( the words of a leading Republican) system of Western Europe smashed and the UK to be open for the USA... MAGA. Where do normal people come into this? A billionaire‘s wet dream.

 

[Grendel]

How is it stupidity for saying what you believe in? More and more people are realising that the promises made by the likes of Johnson, Gove etc are simply undeliverable.

Well if that’s the case then if there’s an election Vince “Mr Euro” Cable will sweep power as Jeremy Corbyn wants a far harder Brexit than Johnson and Gove. As they believe in remaining they’ll be demanding the Blair creature back to lead labour

 

[martcov]

Well if that’s the case then if there’s an election Vince “Mr Euro” Cable will sweep power as Jeremy Corbyn wants a far harder Brexit than Johnson and Gove. As they believe in remaining they’ll be demanding the Blair creature back to lead labour

They want to stay in the CU or a CU. May doesn’t. How does that make Corbyn wanting a harder Brexit?

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Ever considered that one reason was people voted leave was because they were convinced that the EU wants to take sovereignty away from member nations?

 

[martcov]

Ever considered that one reason was people voted leave was because they were convinced that the EU wants to take sovereignty away from member nations?

The EU is a Union if sovereign nations not a foreign body. Voluntarily. What sovereignty has been taken... as opposed to voluntarily pooled? There is none. We have agreed to every treaty. What are you on about?