Appeal Dismissed (45 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

It’s simple maths though. What’s the likely impact of bad press? If we’re honest, not a damn lot. How much bad press did Sisu get post Northampton? How much difference did it make?

I really think we are vastly overstating the impact it would have. I vividly remember the same conversations with the same people about the Council letting us go last time (down to the same childish insults thrown at anyone who pointed it out), and look what happened. This idea that because we won’t like it as CCFC fans it’ll have some massive impact is just wrong. You’re talking maybe 5k tops out of a group of stakeholders in the hundreds of thousands. That’s collateral damage.

It’s this thinking that lead to Northampton: the idea that we are more important than we are.

An unlikely promotion this season could be very timely indeed!

I was genuinely shocked how apathetic the city was to us last time. Now you could argue that's... our fault (collectively, not me and you!). After all, Charlton managed to exert influence to get the Valley back etc. However, it's still inescapable that the Ricoh candidate got sod all votes (again, you could argue the campaign wasn't well run, but it's still the only evidence we have!)

Like it or not, some of the apathetic fans would go and see Wasps if we weren't about, just for something to do. Like it or not, we're rivals for the 'leisure' part of a support, and the longer Wasps are here, the less they'll care about antagonising us as fans. I said from the start, they're probably better off without rivals for support in the city.

It's also, incidentally, why I do think it has the potential to be us or them regardless of this current Round of Joy...

 

---

[skybluetony176]

so who controls what the club does and who just works for it?

Seppala doesnt just control or force the legal action

She said this just last year in a statement on the clubs website “As owners, we must take responsibility for the club’s position”.

STATEMENT: Open letter from CCFC Owners

 

[Spurs 'City Away Kit' Kit]

Just a thought.... If SISU believe that the Ricoh should have a much higher valuation than the Wasps/CCC agreed price, then surely this would seriously backfire if there were to be any future agreement to take a 50% stake from Wasps?

Wasps have already increased the value of the Ricoh in their accounts, off the top of my head they value it around £65m.

If CCFC were ever in a position to buy 50% the negotiations would start around that figure, anything less and they would have to show a loss in their accounts.

 

[Nick]

She said this just last year in a statement on the clubs website “As owners, we must take responsibility for the club’s position”.

STATEMENT: Open letter from CCFC Owners

So are you saying she's a massive twat and people should be angry at her or we should all be angry at ccfc for something they have no control over?

 

[skybluetony176]

This too. Echoes of a few years ago.

Marches, protests, petitions, etc do nothing but make the people involved feel useful. It’s not clear cut who is to blame and that alone will blunt any impact.

I know I’m down on this, but it’s exactly the reason I didn’t want us to give up a long tenancy without anywhere to go. All of this was easily foretold before the rent strike and it’s maddening watch it play out while people still cling to the delusions that brought us here.

I think badgering the Telegraph to do an online petition would be a good start. Something that could happen straight away too.

 

[Monners]

I have bought half a dozen whistles - that should do it

 

[skybluetony176]

So are you saying she's a massive twat and people should be angry at her or we should all be angry at ccfc for something they have no control over?

No. I’m saying it’s her CCFC when suits. You’re the one who said we shouldn’t just protest at Wasps it should be SISU too so this statement from April 2017 could be a good starting point to call her out on. At that point she was taking responsibility for the club, we’re now at a point where we need her to take responsibility for the club and all of a sudden she’s nothing to do with the club. You can see the contradiction I’m sure.

Personally I won’t be wasting my time attempting to protest to the club or SISU but you’re up for it so here’s your starting point. You’re welcome.

 

[Warwickhunt]

what with Brexit and this shit! its getting on my bleedin nerves

 

[Paxman II]

SISU obviously through legal representation still believe it's worth proceeding on appeal. That said it's difficult to see an outcome that favours them in any way. One wonders why are they so belligerent after all this time? But be that as it may, it leaves the football club with a real headache. It can be argued the football club have no influence on decisions of SISU (otium et al) in the continuation of legal action. CCFC is standing on it's own two feet, reinvesting money it generates and the club has improved wholeheartedly under current management, including the playing side and subsequent results.
The debacle over the stadium issue has run for years and CCFC have to all intense and purpose extracted themselves from it, be it their ultimate owners are SISU. I believe WASP can see that quite clearly and must also know that 'owners' come and go and the football club will still be there, day to day playing and competing in the league.
Given WASP stated stance it's difficult to see how they can back down and keep face. But there is optimism that they will. The footfall, rent and other advantages associated with having the football club tied to an agreement far outweigh them refusing us an agreement. It would be almost as belligerent as SISU them selves to prevent a deal that makes them money. So how do they do it without letting it look like SISU have some sort of win over them and have called their bluff? It's still possible WASP will stand by their decision and say no deal but the negative impacts from a financial point of view to PR and the rest of it would be a huge risk on their part. The current relationship WASP have with CCFC are a good one (We are not talking SISU here) and they have previously renewed the lease to play there. Added to that the EFL statement suggest we will not be allowed to play anywhere outside Coventry means a no deal will look somewhat like WASP killing off CCFC when tbf we are a good economic tenant at the moment.
The legal action is over the sale of the stadium and it is brought against the council not WASP directly. It affects other parties negatively of course which is why WASP are not happy. Court cost, the threat of the stadium sale being over turned or an order to reevaluate the deal? But those outcomes are surely staked against SISU.
I believe WASP will concoct a deal for another season based on an increase in rent in line with the current agreement (I don't believe they want another argument by making a substantial increase in rent, it's one they would lose) and sell it as a deal for CCFC, the city, it's community etc etc with an understanding and perhaps an added clause of some kind that legal action and it's direct cost to them will give them the right of redress and recovery of those cost from the parent companies of CCFC should they so wish. I would expect a season by season deal until such time new owners of CCFC are found and new negotiations can be sought long term.
As to the EFL suggesting we can't play outside Coventry. We already have previously in Northampton with their blessing. Precedent suggest they have just made a ridiculous statement they can't enforce.
And finally if you ever wanted to confirm we have one of the most insane proprietors of a football club, it's just been proven. I just wonder sometimes if the EFL and the other footballing bodies can't find a way to block or simply revoke SISU's rights, take back the golden ticket and offer it to new owners for breach of duty! Theresa May does not own the rights to the worst of all deals, we did that by allowing SISU into our world.

 

[Nick]

I think badgering the Telegraph to do an online petition would be a good start. Something that could happen straight away too.

I think the first thing is making sure people know that ccfc as we know and love aren't the ones pushing it and don't really have any choice or day

 

[letsallsingtogether]

I have bought half a dozen whistles - that should do it

So your suggestion is what?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Granted that's hardly a reputable source but it's well known throughout Coventry and Warwickshire and among those who have close links to Wasps that they cannot afford the Ricoh repayments. I personally didn't think that was shocking news, especially from a person from a financial background.

As I'm from a PR background I envisage worst case scenarios. But many of the points i've made are what Wasps will be considering when deciding whether to renew our rental agreement or not. They won't be taking the glass half full approach as they can neither handle or afford taking the view that all will be well, regardless of whether it pans out as such.

it wasnt a shock in May 2015 when the bond was started nor when the CT printed their "exclusive". How were Wasps ever going to be able to making £5m per year after tax to be able to repay the bond from trading ? The article was right they couldnt but then it was never the intention to, the article you refer to is a nonsense

I bow to your better knowledge of PR than me but still disagree.

 

[hill83]

So your suggestion is what?

I can’t think of anything that we can do to be honest.

 

[Nick]

No. I’m saying it’s her CCFC when suits. You’re the one who said we shouldn’t just protest at Wasps it should be SISU too so this statement from April 2017 could be a good starting point to call her out on. At that point she was taking responsibility for the club, we’re now at a point where we need her to take responsibility for the club and all of a sudden she’s nothing to do with the club. You can see the contradiction I’m sure.

Personally I won’t be wasting my time attempting to protest to the club or SISU but you’re up for it so here’s your starting point. You’re welcome.

It's pretty easy for people to differentiate between sisu and the club isn't it?

I've always had issue with protest aimed at ccfc, running on the pitch etc.

If somebody did a protest that found who all of her investors were and tried to mess it up for her (an example, not exactly simple) then I'd have no issue.

My point is, people are angry if the club gets hurt by sisu or anybody else. It makes no sense to then to try and hurt it thinking it bothers them.

As I've said, people will try and push it as ccfc behind it all and masterminded it. It would suit them, as it has in the past for people to push similar things.

 

[skybluetony176]

I think the first thing is making sure people know that ccfc as we know and love aren't the ones pushing it and don't really have any choice or day

That’s the point. It’s a waste of breath when you have companies house connecting them legally, Joy taking responsibility for what happens to the club in one statement and then in the latest statement she’s nothing to do with the club. It’s a tangled web of bullshit, bluster, deliberate blurring of the lines and nobody is going to do anything of the back of it to benefit the club. You’re better off leaving that argument behind because all it will do is give whoever the opportunity to say no that isn’t the case. Then you’re making an argument on what is or isn’t the club rather than making a case for the club remaining.

It’s a sad state of affairs but we’ll probably have more joy trying to force Wasps arm to do what’s best by the club than we will trying to force SISU’s arm to do the best by the club. If you get into that whole sisu aren’t the club nonsense you’ll be creating an unnecessary side show.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

I can’t think of anything that we can do to be honest.

TBH nor can I.

 

[Monners]

So your suggestion is what?

No more than gallows humour mate. I don't have a suggestion as I can't think of anything that us fans can do to sort this. I do fear the worst for the club I'm afraid.

 

[Nick]

That’s the point. It’s a waste of breath when you have companies house connecting them legally, Joy taking responsibility for what happens to the club in one statement and then in the latest statement she’s nothing to do with the club. It’s a tangled web of bullshit, bluster, deliberate blurring of the lines and nobody is going to do anything of the back of it to benefit the club. You’re better off leaving that argument behind because all it will do is give whoever the opportunity to say no that isn’t the case. Then you’re making an argument on what is or isn’t the club rather than making a case for the club remaining.

It’s a sad state of affairs but we’ll probably have more joy trying to force Wasps arm to do what’s best by the club than we will trying to force SISU’s arm to do the best by the club. If you get into that whole sisu aren’t the club nonsense you’ll be creating an unnecessary side show.

I'm talking about the fans and the football. I doubt that so many went to Wembley or lined the streets for sisu or joy.

More about what ccfc means to the fans rather than any limited company.

When we have our own fans trying to direct the anger at ccfc, that's my point.

 

[oldskyblue58]

That's what the statement was saying though wasn't it? That it is being forced and pushed by the shareholders.

So here's the situation if you were a nasty man. You set your company up with a couple of sub companies that you still have control over like a puppet master. If you decide one day you want to take one of your puppets to war (lets say OSB's window cleaning), you could use that name to start legal action against all of the other window cleaning but all of the people there are helpless as you have the overall say.

Should we make everybody be angry at everybody within OSB's window cleaning who have absolutely no say or should we be angry at you?

Not angry at Boddy & Co but to say Otium or OSB's window cleaning in your example is not involved is a nonsense and dividing OSB's Window cleaning in to a trading sub set called Nick,s squeegee doesnt change that. I know Sepalla is driving this but she is closely involved in the overall management of Otium - to think otherwise is daft. Her involvement in all matters makes Otium involved.

Otium is the trading entity in the SBS&L group it can not operate without its employees but every employee is not involved in every decision. If there was no Otium or similar there would be no CCFC. I would think that in terms of a successful outcome for SISU that Otium is also essential to extract full reward from CCC & wasps

in all matters lease or legal wasps have to deal with the legal entity and that is only Otium Entertainment Group

 

[Paxman II]

Can we blame it on Brexit?

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

it wasnt a shock in May 2015 when the bond was started nor when the CT printed their "exclusive". How were Wasps ever going to be able to making £5m per year after tax to be able to repay the bond from trading ? The article was right they couldnt but then it was never the intention to, the article you refer to is a nonsense

I bow to your better knowledge of PR than me but still disagree.

I'm not a financial expert, nor would I claim to be as it's not my field. But I must ask how is it nonsense, two local accountants put their name to it by offering insight so unless they're both incapable why are they so wrong?

Just bare in mind Wasps aren't liked due to their groundhopping from London to Coventry. Their image in the press is already tarnished. Hardly the best start if the worst were to happen and CCFC folded completely.

 

[Nick]

Not angry at Boddy & Co but to say Otium or OSB's window cleaning in your example is not involved is a nonsense and dividing OSB's Window cleaning in to a trading sub set called Nick,s squeegee doesnt change that. I know Sepalla is driving this but she is closely involved in the overall management of Otium - to think otherwise is daft. Her involvement in all matters makes Otium involved.

Otium is the trading entity in the SBS&L group it can not operate without its employees but every employee is not involved in every decision. If there was no Otium or similar there would be no CCFC. I would think that in terms of a successful outcome for SISU that Otium is also essential to extract full reward from CCC & wasps

in all matters lease or legal wasps have to deal with the legal entity and that is only Otium Entertainment Group

The statement is saying they have no choice as it's forced by shareholders though?

Coventry City Football Club has learned of the decision of the club owners SISU to appeal the latest court judgement and continue court proceedings against Wasps and Coventry City Council.

For the avoidance of doubt, the shareholder drives the legal process and instructs legal counsel. The Club does not make any decision on the court proceedings nor does it pay any legal costs.

We reiterate the Club’s desire and need to agree a new deal to continue to play matches at the Ricoh Arena.

We want this deal to happen, as we believe supporters and the wider community do too, and everyone at Coventry City Football Club will work tirelessly in our attempts to make this happen. Without this, our place in the EFL and the Club’s future is in jeopardy.

Which you have agreed with. They have no choice, but you made out it wasn't true?

 

[wal3590]

Call


Inbox

Tim Fisher <[email protected]>
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:26

to me

Lee

I understand that you sent Joy a short note. As with all fans I am only too happy to discuss the situation. Just send me your number.

Regards






>Me
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:43

to Tim

Thats fine by me, as long as you're honest. I will write a few questions down and get back to you.

Tim Fisher <[email protected]>
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:50

to me

Lee

I am always honest. Just send me your number and I will call. Getting on a plane in 10 mins.

T




This transmission is intended for the named addressee(s) only and may contain confidential, sensitive or personal information and should be handled accordingly. Unless you are the named addressee (or authorised to receive it for the addressee) you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you have received this transmission in error please notify the sender immediately. All email traffic sent to or from us, including without limitation all GCSX traffic, may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with relevant legislation.







Me:
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:59

to Tim

May have to wait until Monday as I am at work. One quick one though. Is there really any intention of a new ground? If so when?

[email protected]
Fri, 16 May 2014, 17:02

to me

Absolutely. I have introduced the planners, architects and project manager to the fans and there have been open fans forums with each.
Regards,
Tim"





I found this email thread from 4 years ago I had with the one and only Tim Fisher. We are literally nowhere further forward and probably much further back. Unbelievable. "Honest" bloke though

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

I'd think the more likely scenario would be a couple of temporary stands for a couple of years, and then the Rugby club could carry on with its own business once this all settles, with (hopefully!) a bit of extra cash it wasn't anticipating.

Not exactly ideal, but better than the worst case!

That won't happen cov are putting in a pitch for next season that we won't be able to play on

 

[Londonccfcfan]

This too. Echoes of a few years ago.

Marches, protests, petitions, etc do nothing but make the people involved feel useful. It’s not clear cut who is to blame and that alone will blunt any impact.

I know I’m down on this, but it’s exactly the reason I didn’t want us to give up a long tenancy without anywhere to go. All of this was easily foretold before the rent strike and it’s maddening watch it play out while people still cling to the delusions that brought us here.

Im as devastated as many you are. Not surprised though.

Typical SHITSU, where do we go from here.?? Protests, would hate to go through all that again! it definitely cost relegation 2 years agao, atmosphere was toxic and it was all counterproductive to what was trying to be achieved on the pitch.

One concern I do have is that this may be perfect opportunity for Robins to Jump ship again. Were we not doing well on the pitch when he jumped ship last time? semi final and around top 8 with points deduction!

These scumbags will always do their best to try to ruin any decent momentum this clubs gains!

CCFC will never die! ever!

 

[Grendel]

It’s simple maths though. What’s the likely impact of bad press? If we’re honest, not a damn lot. How much bad press did Sisu get post Northampton? How much difference did it make?

I really think we are vastly overstating the impact it would have. I vividly remember the same conversations with the same people about the Council letting us go last time (down to the same childish insults thrown at anyone who pointed it out), and look what happened. This idea that because we won’t like it as CCFC fans it’ll have some massive impact is just wrong. You’re talking maybe 5k tops out of a group of stakeholders in the hundreds of thousands. That’s collateral damage.

It’s this thinking that lead to Northampton: the idea that we are more important than we are.

Sisu are a faceless hedge fund so of course any bad press would have a marginal negative impact.

You have no concept of brand marketing and brand values I'm afraid.

In the game Sisu operate in it is actually entirely plausible that the move to Northampton and the court case shenanigans would strengthen the brand values they adhere to and increase their attractiveness in the field that they operate.

Wasps value the brand in a very different way. They have a mission statement to be the biggest name in Rugby. Within than statement are a number of brand pillars that will have been created. One will inevitably be around support and acceptance within the local community. Therefore they will be extremely sensitive about what they perceive as negative press and the impact that may have on a pillar that holds up the brand aspiration.

There is no question in my mind a negative media campaign regarding destruction of heritage, destroying the club created by the great Jimmy Hill and leaving one of the biggest Cities without a football club will be viewed by their marketing strategists as a major gamble to take.

 

[Grendel]

Im as devastated as many you are. Not surprised though.

Typical SHITSU, where do we go from here.?? Protests, would hate to go through all that again! it definitely cost relegation 2 years agao, atmosphere was toxic and it was all counterproductive to what was trying to be achieved on the pitch.

One concern I do have is that this may be perfect opportunity for Robins to Jump ship again. Were we not doing well on the pitch when he jumped ship last time? semi final and around top 8 with points deduction!

These scumbags will always do their best to try to ruin any decent momentum this clubs gains!

CCFC will never die! ever!

When you say protests - I assume this will be against Wasps?

 

[derbyskyblue]

With regards to he FL kicking us out, aren’t we reasonably big enough to join the 20 or so clubs that are trying to break away from the championship? Can’t we just join them and groundshare with Birmingham, or at worst Nuneaton til we sort ourselves out?

Further to that do the EFL have the appetite with court battles with the 20 breakaway clubs and one with SISU? I don’t think so, we’ll be groundsharing again if worst come to worst

Ground share with birmingham ????Are you serious, someone pass me the smelling salts. nearly fookin fainted there.

 

[Grendel]

It’s simple maths though. What’s the likely impact of bad press? If we’re honest, not a damn lot. How much bad press did Sisu get post Northampton? How much difference did it make?

I really think we are vastly overstating the impact it would have. I vividly remember the same conversations with the same people about the Council letting us go last time (down to the same childish insults thrown at anyone who pointed it out), and look what happened. This idea that because we won’t like it as CCFC fans it’ll have some massive impact is just wrong. You’re talking maybe 5k tops out of a group of stakeholders in the hundreds of thousands. That’s collateral damage.

It’s this thinking that lead to Northampton: the idea that we are more important than we are.

Its nothing to do with PR - its brand building

 

[Nick]

The Point I have been trying to get across is (easier now I can use images)

This is CCFC:

This is SISU

(May be the old address). Add in Dermot etc etc.

Our own fans / Wasps and whoever shouldn't be thinking that trying to hurt the images at the top do any damage to the images at the bottom.

The only time we have unified fans is when it is all about the images at the top, when it is CCFC. The only time the fans actually come together and have any force is when it's that.

People will try and make out it is the CCFC at the top that is doing it all rather than the ones at the bottom, that way when the one at the top ends up damaged even more it doesn't seem so bad.

 

[Nick]

Call


Inbox

Tim Fisher <[email protected]>
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:26

to me

Lee

I understand that you sent Joy a short note. As with all fans I am only too happy to discuss the situation. Just send me your number.

Regards






>Me
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:43

to Tim

Thats fine by me, as long as you're honest. I will write a few questions down and get back to you.

Tim Fisher <[email protected]>
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:50

to me

Lee

I am always honest. Just send me your number and I will call. Getting on a plane in 10 mins.

T




This transmission is intended for the named addressee(s) only and may contain confidential, sensitive or personal information and should be handled accordingly. Unless you are the named addressee (or authorised to receive it for the addressee) you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you have received this transmission in error please notify the sender immediately. All email traffic sent to or from us, including without limitation all GCSX traffic, may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with relevant legislation.







Me:
Fri, 16 May 2014, 16:59

to Tim

May have to wait until Monday as I am at work. One quick one though. Is there really any intention of a new ground? If so when?

[email protected]
Fri, 16 May 2014, 17:02

to me

Absolutely. I have introduced the planners, architects and project manager to the fans and there have been open fans forums with each.
Regards,
Tim"





I found this email thread from 4 years ago I had with the one and only Tim Fisher. We are literally nowhere further forward and probably much further back. Unbelievable. "Honest" bloke though

That's a fake, it doesn't say crystal clear.

 

[Londonccfcfan]

When you say protests - I assume this will be against Wasps?

In this case are not all 3 parties at fault in some way or shape to varying degrees!

Even the toothless FA and EFL are to partly blame for letting UNFIT and PROPER owners run us into oblivion!

We should be independently valued immediately and sold!

The only persons we cant blame is the fans. Sorry sorry state of affairs!

 

[Nick]

In this case are not all 3 parties at fault in some way or shape to varying degrees!

Even the toothless FA and EFL are to partly blame for letting UNFIT and PROPER owners run us into oblivion!

We should be independently valued immediately and sold!

The only persons we cant blame is the fans. Sorry sorry state of affairs!

In reality, what can the FA / EFL actually do about it? People will always shout about them, but what can they do?

 

[Grendel]

In this case are not all 3 parties at fault in some way or shape to varying degrees!

Even the toothless FA and EFL are to partly blame for letting UNFIT and PROPER owners run us into oblivion!

We should be independently valued immediately and sold!

The only persons we cant blame is the fans. Sorry sorry state of affairs!

You cannot target 3 fronts in a short term strategy - doomed to fail. At the moment there is only one that would be for turning and all energies need to be focused on the insect invaders

 

[Londonccfcfan]

In reality, what can the FA / EFL actually do about it? People will always shout about them, but what can they do?

I really don't know enough about this! but don't owners have to be FIT and PROPER and act in best interests of the football club.
Surely is there not enough evidence to show huge mismanagement! theres got be a way of severing all ties with them.