The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (80 Viewers)

[Astute]

It’ll be the beginning of the end for Corbyn if he pushed on with Brexit. As others have said, Brexit has nothing to do with making the poorest’s lives better.

It would be the end of him if he went against the Labour voters though. I have been saying it for ages and nothing has happened to make me change my mind. And this is why he has said Labour won't go for another referendum.

 

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[clint van damme]

If you think Brexit is for anyone but the super rich I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

The poor can’t dodge shocks to the economy, the likes of Rees Mogg and Dyson and Johnson and Weatherspoons fella will just see it as a money making opportunity.

They’re pissing themselves that they’ve fooled a bunch of plebs into voting to make thensleves poorer and the upper class richer.

I don't actually think a hard Brexit will help Tim Martin (the Wetherspoons fella), though I'm sure he won't starve.
I've listened to him speak and he's clearly clueless.

 

[Sick Boy]

It would be the end of him if he went against the Labour voters though. I have been saying it for ages and nothing has happened to make me change my mind. And this is why he has said Labour won't go for another referendum.

What basis is there that a majority of Labour voters are pro-Brexit? The referendum was hardly a leave landslide, was it?

I’d imagine the 60% figure comes from constituencies that voted leave, not voters.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What basis is there that a majority of Labour voters are pro-Brexit? The referendum was hardly a leave landslide, was it?

The point is surely how they would vote in another referendum, and then, even if they did vote leave, whether they were committed enough to that to then vote someone other than Labour if they campaigned to stay... and whether they could pick up some remain voters who would then vote Labour as a result of a policy shift.

That's all complicated enough for me not to offer an opinion on!

 

[Grendel]

What basis is there that a majority of Labour voters are pro-Brexit? The referendum was hardly a leave landslide, was it?

I’d imagine the 60% figure comes from constituencies that voted leave, not voters.

There’s no question outside London that a lot of traditional labour voters voted leave. Remember if you remove Scotland and Ireland where labour have zero presence the vote to leave was much higher.

Corbyn is supposed to be the new radical leader which people want. It’s rather amusing when it comes down to it most prefer the politics of the blood stained Blair creature or his bumbling successor Brown rather than any socialism at all. I guess you’d rather the delightful Emily Thornberry was in the hot seat

 

[clint van damme]

There’s no question outside London that a lot of traditional labour voters voted leave. Remember if you remove Scotland and Ireland where labour have zero presence the vote to leave was much higher.

Corbyn is supposed to be the new radical leader which people want. It’s rather amusing when it comes down to it most prefer the politics of the blood stained Blair creature or his bumbling successor Brown rather than any socialism at all. I guess you’d rather the delightful Emily Thornberry was in the hot seat

She couldn't be worse than Boris. Even Hunt looks far more competent.
The laziest foreign secretary I've ever worked with according to one civil servant.
The BBC show the Foreign office showed what an absolute moron he is.
And the fact that Boris or hunt gets the gig over Rory Stewart just shows that in the Tory party the school you went to is still far more important than your actual ability.

 

[Astute]

What basis is there that a majority of Labour voters are pro-Brexit? The referendum was hardly a leave landslide, was it?

I’d imagine the 60% figure comes from constituencies that voted leave, not voters.

If what has been said is correct your imagination is wrong. It said the reason for Corbyn to not be after another referendum is that 60% of Labour voters voted to leave.

The only problem is we don't know who to believe on who voted for what. If you look at some polls they say that the majority of Tory voters voted leave and the majority of Labour voters voted remain. But most of the Labour strongholds voted leave and most Tory strongholds voted remain.

 

[Astute]

The point is surely how they would vote in another referendum, and then, even if they did vote leave, whether they were committed enough to that to then vote someone other than Labour if they campaigned to stay... and whether they could pick up some remain voters who would then vote Labour as a result of a policy shift.

That's all complicated enough for me not to offer an opinion on!

The question for me would be how many Labour voters could bring themselves to vote Tory and how many Tory voters could bring themselves to vote Labour after the event.

Look at the UKIP voters. Cameron offered them what they wanted so they left UKIP and voted Tory to get the referendum they wanted. But now they are taking their votes elsewhere if we believe the polls.

 

[Astute]

She couldn't be worse than Boris. Even Hunt looks far more competent.
The laziest foreign secretary I've ever worked with according to one civil servant.
The BBC show the Foreign office showed what an absolute moron he is.
And the fact that Boris or hunt gets the gig over Rory Stewart just shows that in the Tory party the school you went to is still far more important than your actual ability.

Lack of ability runs in both Labour and the Tories these days. And as we know the last Labour government was the Tories in disguise.

You know it is bad when it is hard to think of what you would see as a good leader for both parties. We are reduced to who wouldn't be as bad as others. And one of these would be running the UK in the future.

The worse thing to have happened to Labour for a very long time was the death of John Smith. He gave us direction. He was just what the UK needed. Labour was going places with good policies. Since then the party has had very poor leaders. Nothing but Muppets or puppets. We need another John Smith and quickly.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

We need radical change. Yet you want to celebrate those against it?

Have you noticed how the poor are doing?

Or was you on about the EU?

Even the leaders of the countries in the EU say it needs to change.

Real change takes generations and movements and institutions to change. Trump and macron aren’t change

 

[Grendel]

Real change takes generations and movements and institutions to change. Trump and macron aren’t change

Corbyn would certainly offer change - looks like people aren’t so keen on socialism at all

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Lack of ability runs in both Labour and the Tories these days. And as we know the last Labour government was the Tories in disguise.

You know it is bad when it is hard to think of what you would see as a good leader for both parties. We are reduced to who wouldn't be as bad as others. And one of these would be running the UK in the future.

The worse thing to have happened to Labour for a very long time was the death of John Smith. He gave us direction. He was just what the UK needed. Labour was going places with good policies. Since then the party has had very poor leaders. Nothing but Muppets or puppets. We need another John Smith and quickly.

Think that’s bang on

 

[Sick Boy]

If what has been said is correct your imagination is wrong. It said the reason for Corbyn to not be after another referendum is that 60% of Labour voters voted to leave.

The only problem is we don't know who to believe on who voted for what. If you look at some polls they say that the majority of Tory voters voted leave and the majority of Labour voters voted remain. But most of the Labour strongholds voted leave and most Tory strongholds voted remain.

Which Tory strongholds voted remain?

 

[Sick Boy]

Lack of ability runs in both Labour and the Tories these days. And as we know the last Labour government was the Tories in disguise.

You know it is bad when it is hard to think of what you would see as a good leader for both parties. We are reduced to who wouldn't be as bad as others. And one of these would be running the UK in the future.

The worse thing to have happened to Labour for a very long time was the death of John Smith. He gave us direction. He was just what the UK needed. Labour was going places with good policies. Since then the party has had very poor leaders. Nothing but Muppets or puppets. We need another John Smith and quickly.

I remember the day Smith died but am too young to remember his politics, did it look like he was going to get in power?

 

[Astute]

Which Tory strongholds voted remain?

Mainly Brighton, London and the rich parts of places like Surrey. Up north it was just about all blue for leave until you got to the border of Scotland. Every area was yellow for remain.

But you must have seen one of the links I have put up for it by now.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Corbyn would certainly offer change - looks like people aren’t so keen on socialism at all

I think true socialism is at about 5%. Think some socialism democrat ideal could attract enough votes of course

 

[Astute]

I remember the day Smith died but am too young to remember his politics, did it look like he was going to get in power?

Yes Labour was looking great. He turned the whole party around. He removed the idiots. He put policies in place that would make a massive difference. The Labour party became one. But he to9k strength away from the unions and gave it to the people IIRC. I think one member one vote was his idea. He was strolling to the polls and would have become PM. He did all the hard work for Bliar.

 

[Sick Boy]

Mainly Brighton, London and the rich parts of places like Surrey. Up north it was just about all blue for leave until you got to the border of Scotland. Every area was yellow for remain.

But you must have seen one of the links I have put up for it by now.

Brighton and London are Tory strongholds?

I presume you’re on the wind up.

Kemptown in Brighton used to be Tory but went to Labour at the last election and Hove has been Labour for a while now, oh yeah, and the city elected the country’s first Green MP.

London is hardly a Tory stronghold either.

 

[Astute]

Brighton and London are Tory strongholds?

I presume you’re on the wind up.

Kemptown in Brighton used to be Tory but went to Labour at the last election and Hove has been Labour for a while now, oh yeah, and the city elected the country’s first Green MP.

London is hardly a Tory stronghold either.

Yes Brighton belongs to the Greens. 40% of the vote IIRC. And yes a lot of London is Labour. But a fair bit of London was leave. A lot of London is poor. But City of London is rich and about the biggest remain vote. And it has a lot of bankers.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes Brighton belongs to the Greens. 40% of the vote IIRC. And yes a lot of London is Labour. But a fair bit of London was leave. A lot of London is poor. But City of London is rich and about the biggest remain vote. And it has a lot of bankers.

Then why claim Brighton is a Tory stronghold? The whole city is more Labour than Greens, as well - it is only Brighton Pavilion that has a Green MP - Hove is Labour as is Kemptown now too. Overall it has never been a Tory stronghold, so not sure where you got that from.

Plenty of leave voters come from very wealthy backgrounds too.

 

[Astute]

Then why claim Brighton is a Tory stronghold? The whole city is more Labour than Greens, as well - it is only Brighton Pavilion that has a Green MP - Hove is Labour as is Kemptown now too. Overall it has never been a Tory stronghold, so not sure where you got that from.

Plenty of leave voters come from very wealthy backgrounds too.

I have said leave voters come from wealthy backgrounds. And yes Brighton is a Green party area.

Here we go again. Tell me which part is wrong.

EU Referendum Results

Are you going to tell me that the Labour voters are not mainly where the blue is and the Tory voters mainly where the yellow is in England?

 

[Sick Boy]

I have said leave voters come from wealthy backgrounds. And yes Brighton is a Green party area.

Here we go again. Tell me which part is wrong.

EU Referendum Results

Are you going to tell me that the Labour voters are not mainly where the blue is and the Tory voters mainly where the yellow is in England?

You earlier tried to claim that it was a Tory stronghold.

Brighton Pavilion is Green, but IIRC the city's other MPs are Labour.

 

[Astute]

You earlier tried to claim that it was a Tory stronghold.

Brighton Pavilion is Green, but IIRC the city's other MPs are Labour.

Yes I was wrong. I admit I was wrong. I thought the Tories won in Brighton. But it was the Greens. I suppose that makes everything else wrong as well.

At least I admit when I am wrong. I suppose I could do what others on here do and come out with insults and try and change the subject when wrong.

But the main part is the same. Labour strongholds mainly voted leave. And Tory strongholds mainly voted remain. Yet again I ask you to look at the map I keep putting up. Please make a comment about it.

Or should we just ignore it and find another subject?

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes I was wrong. I admit I was wrong. I thought the Tories won in Brighton. But it was the Greens. I suppose that makes everything else wrong as well.

At least I admit when I am wrong. I suppose I could do what others on here do and come out with insults and try and change the subject when wrong.

But the main part is the same. Labour strongholds mainly voted leave. And Tory strongholds mainly voted remain. Yet again I ask you to look at the map I keep putting up. Please make a comment about it.

Or should we just ignore it and find another subject?

Brighton’s renowned for being very liberal, so was surprised you thought it’d be Tory. Loads of Tory constituencies voted leave as well - there’s plenty of support for it amongst the party’s voters and MPs.

As I’ve said before, Brexit is not about helping the poor and making the country more equal, which for me is the worst part of all of this. If anything it’ll make it worse.

Which Tory strongholds voted Remain?

Anyway, enough of this for a few days - merry Christmas to you and yours.

 

[Astute]

Brighton’s renowned for being very liberal, so was surprised you thought it’d be Tory. Loads of Tory constituencies voted leave as well - there’s plenty of support for it amongst the party’s voters and MPs.

As I’ve said before, Brexit is not about helping the poor and making the country more equal, which for me is the worst part of all of this. If anything it’ll make it worse.

Which Tory strongholds voted Remain?

Anyway, enough of this for a few days - merry Christmas to you and yours.

So where did I say only Labour seats voted leave? I said mainly.

Have you looked at the colour coded map yet? Have you got a comment to make about it yet?

I haven't said about it being good for the poor. I stated the situation that a lot of the poorer people are in and how it could swing them towards leave. That is a totally different subject.

And yes Merry Christmas to you and your family. It is a bloody madhouse here. Still got another couple of hours wrapping to do. At least have cracked first tinnie now. And trying to make the choice of Morgan Spice or JD Honey. Sod it will have both

 

[martcov]

Labour members are not the electorate - all real labour socialists would be on the same page - that shows how clueless you are

Would you like to show where I have said that? As usual those who think we must stay in the EU whatever read what they want from my comments.

Yes the rich do the best out of us being in the EU. The poor get affected for the worse more than the rich. The EU isn't good for everyone.

And this is where I get accused of scapegoating someone or other.

Whatever anyone says Labour voters wanted out. Tory voters wanted in. About half of the EU budget goes to mainly the rich or well off. EU freedom of movement benefits those who employ people.

But this isn't saying most if not all don't benefit in some way at least. But people will vote in the way their personal circumstances and general views tell them to.

What is so hard to understand?

That you haven’t taken into account that things have changed since 2016 and now a majority want a second referendum, and that 27.5 countries in the EU see benefits from FOM. You don’t, but out of 500 million citizens you belong to a tiny minority.

 

[martcov]

There’s no question outside London that a lot of traditional labour voters voted leave. Remember if you remove Scotland and Ireland where labour have zero presence the vote to leave was much higher.

Corbyn is supposed to be the new radical leader which people want. It’s rather amusing when it comes down to it most prefer the politics of the blood stained Blair creature or his bumbling successor Brown rather than any socialism at all. I guess you’d rather the delightful Emily Thornberry was in the hot seat

I prefer the politics of the the pre Iraq Blair creature. The country wasn’t in the mess that it is in today and the far right and left were stewing on their own in their appropriate corners. Happy days.

 

[martcov]

So where did I say only Labour seats voted leave? I said mainly.

Have you looked at the colour coded map yet? Have you got a comment to make about it yet?

I haven't said about it being good for the poor. I stated the situation that a lot of the poorer people are in and how it could swing them towards leave. That is a totally different subject.

And yes Merry Christmas to you and your family. It is a bloody madhouse here. Still got another couple of hours wrapping to do. At least have cracked first tinnie now. And trying to make the choice of Morgan Spice or JD Honey. Sod it will have both

I think you are better on the tinnies than off them. ;-) Enjoy Christmas and I look forward to annoying you later....

 

[martcov]

"Small-c conservatism: This term is used in the United Kingdom to describe those who are conservative in the sense of resisting radical change rather than being members or supporters of the official Conservative Party."

It’s amazing that we have to do English lessons on here.

Merry Christmas anyway...

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

That you haven’t taken into account that things have changed since 2016 and now a majority want a second referendum, and that 27.5 countries in the EU see benefits from FOM. You don’t, but out of 500 million citizens you belong to a tiny minority.

You keep on saying this over and over and over and over and over and over again. You belong to a tiny minority who believe that if you keep saying it it'll come true. You need to accept the situation and move on but it's like a festering cut you just want to keep poking.

 

[Astute]

That you haven’t taken into account that things have changed since 2016 and now a majority want a second referendum, and that 27.5 countries in the EU see benefits from FOM. You don’t, but out of 500 million citizens you belong to a tiny minority.

Oh dear.

If the majority wanted another referendum we would have one.

27.5 countries? Which don't see the benefits of FOM then?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

That you haven’t taken into account that things have changed since 2016 and now a majority want a second referendum, and that 27.5 countries in the EU see benefits from FOM. You don’t, but out of 500 million citizens you belong to a tiny minority.

Does anyone in the UK, be they remainers or brexiteers, care about what the general public in Bulgaria think about FOM ?

 

[Astute]

I prefer the politics of the the pre Iraq Blair creature. The country wasn’t in the mess that it is in today and the far right and left were stewing on their own in their appropriate corners. Happy days.

Short memory?

The Bliar years were when the infrastructure went well behind. It was a continuation of the Tory years.....although that explains why you liked them years. How about the alleged war crimes by Bliar and all the murders it has caused? How about good pensions being killed off because of the pension tax grab?

Most could make a big list against the Bliar years. And the sad part is that most Labour voters can also do it.

 

[martcov]

Short memory?

The Bliar years were when the infrastructure went well behind. It was a continuation of the Tory years.....although that explains why you liked them years. How about the alleged war crimes by Bliar and all the murders it has caused? How about good pensions being killed off because of the pension tax grab?

Most could make a big list against the Bliar years. And the sad part is that most Labour voters can also do it.

I said up to Iraq.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Just a thought, but can we have a Christmas Truce tomorrow?