Sick Boy
Super Moderator
What Tony quote? You constantly feel the need to play the victim in everything.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (258 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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What Tony quote? You constantly feel the need to play the victim in everything.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There is a degree of truth in it. Many brighter children are left frustrated in a classroom where there is a high percentage of children who don’t want to be there.
Also the league tables are obsessed with C Grade mediocrity so children who are better are encouraged less than those hovering around the average
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Which is why we should cater for those children with vocational schools/colleges.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So you actually support a grammar system?
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I used to be a maths teacher, many years ago in a comprehensive. I also did a bit of English and Drama teaching (my degree is maths but my passion is literature). Some years later (although still a long time ago now) I was out of work for a few months and did some supply work in another comprehensive.
Both comps were excellent and most of the teachers dedicated (there were some in my first school who drifted along - wasn't there long enough at the second to judge). I cannot imagine that the teachers back then could be any better at private schools. I know that my top sets all gained great grades and I doubt they could have done better at any private school.
However, teacher salaries are an issue - I left because I couldn't afford to stay. I understand that many maths and science teachers now are not graduates in their subjects. That must be an issue.
However I perceive a second issue is the rigid curriculum. When I taught the classroom and the lessons were mine. The head of faculty set what we had to teach each term and I could do what I wanted within that. I may be wrong, but I believe teachers have far less scope nowadays to branch off into something if the class needs it.
Both comps were excellent and most of the teachers dedicated (there were some in my first school who drifted along - wasn't there long enough at the second to judge). I cannot imagine that the teachers back then could be any better at private schools. I know that my top sets all gained great grades and I doubt they could have done better at any private school.
However, teacher salaries are an issue - I left because I couldn't afford to stay. I understand that many maths and science teachers now are not graduates in their subjects. That must be an issue.
However I perceive a second issue is the rigid curriculum. When I taught the classroom and the lessons were mine. The head of faculty set what we had to teach each term and I could do what I wanted within that. I may be wrong, but I believe teachers have far less scope nowadays to branch off into something if the class needs it.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Swapped sides multiple times?
It isn't constantly swapping sides. It is what is known as looking at both sides with an open mind. So yes someone like yourself could see it as swapping sides as even you admit that you are totally biased.
And yes I think I would prefer for us to leave without a deal than take the May whatever you want to call it. I also don't want to be ruled by those nobodies that run the EU without changes being made.
But that doesn't mean that I want us to leave the EU.
If you could take a step back and not be 100% biased in everything you read and everything you say you would understand. But you never will.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Looking at both sides? At one point you came out and said you were 100% behind leaving. And then all of a sudden claimed to be remain, it’s not looking at both sides, it’s changing your mind.
There are also leavers on this site who would claim to be biased, yet you have never seemed to pull them up or challenge them. Weird that.
I’d say I’ve actually done more to understand the other point of view and mentioned reasons as to why the vote happened, such as being too Londoncentric and ignoring large parts of the country. I have a lot of sympathy for those who feel left behind but I don’t feel that Brexit is going to help those people or make their lives better.
For some reason you’ve missed that and made stuff up about fruit pickers.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Growing up I wanted to be either a maths teacher or go down the legal route. But I had no choice but to start work at 16. I then started higher education but had to do it work based. When I could finally afford to do what I wanted I would have had to do more years of studying to eventually get a job as a teacher that would have been a pay cut. So I understand totally what you have said.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The salary teachers are paid is a disgrace, it should be at least doubled.
I’d wager that a large proportion will be from overseas in 20 years, the admin, the managerial structure and lack of teacher personalisation of the curriculum have made a stressful job even worse.
I was determined to teach English Lit when younger but got advised not to due to getting in trouble with the police when younger, probably a lucky escape.
I’d wager that a large proportion will be from overseas in 20 years, the admin, the managerial structure and lack of teacher personalisation of the curriculum have made a stressful job even worse.
I was determined to teach English Lit when younger but got advised not to due to getting in trouble with the police when younger, probably a lucky escape.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I am going towards leave again. It isn't changing my mind. I have said all the way along that I am unsure which way to go. Short term I think we would be better off staying in the EU. Long term I think better off leaving the EU. But nobody can be sure whatever.
I say things against those who are leavers. Pete has noticed. But you never notice anything that you agree with. You only notice things you don't like as that is where you start having a go and making things up. Or not noticing words in a sentence or not understanding what they mean.
Astute
Well-Known Member
My 17 year old daughter wants to be a teacher. She also wants to teach English. But I am trying to talk her out of it. Poor pay and lack of respect from pupils and parents.
I was at school a couple of years ago with my 17 year old at a parents evening. A parent came in shouting and swearing at a teacher. I ended up having to tell him to shut his mouth or I would shut it for him. The poor woman teacher was crapping herself. And when a couple of others went over he had a right go at them as well.
The respect has gone. And teachers don't have the backing of many parents. Then they wonder why their kids aren't doing well.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So now you will at least double salaries and add more teachers to the payroll with the enforcement of adding 7% more people to the payroll. So now some teachers should be paid £80 grand a year - as much as some doctors and three times the salary of nurses and a lot more than many who work in the private sector.
Awesome - who is paying for it?
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I agree that double is a bit generous. But look at the rates. A grad in maths isn't likely to want to start on £23,700. When I left I was Head of IT in the school as well, so I had an incentive allowance. I left to become a graduate trainee computer programmer (so everyone else in my intake was 21 - I was 26 (1 year PGCE and 4 years teaching). I got a pay raise.
Alan Dugdales Moustache
Well-Known Member
Not to mention planning, marking, targets, tracking, meetings, attainment targets. Parent meetings, after school.activities, assessment, health and safety. You can work 50 hours a week and you haven't managed to tread water. It should be the best job in the world but sadly that ended in the 1980s.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Maybe double was going a bit overboard but as far as I understand you have to progress quite far to get to 40K. The starting salaries are way too low though and lack incentive to enter the progression.
I certainly think that teaching should be seen as an essential profession and the pay reflective of this.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I don’t think it’s a bad thing to change ones mind on any subject but I am naive and tend to hold opinions loosely as those I see holding hard and fast to choices are generally wrong in their assertions and can’t see why as they see holding a certain opinion as more important than knowing the evidential truth. So you have Gove saying the age of experts is dead. Science gets it in the neck for ‘changing its mind’ as it follows the evidence and holds opinions until evidence tells them something else might be a more truthful truth. I know those of you that know me will say how can you be a Christian following a sky fairy and talk about evidential truth and I’d happily discuss that
I’ve enjoyed following this on here. I find it hard that genuine hard working good people can’t see things the way I do but I’ve realised that people have different opinions to me and they hold them principally. Once I recognise that I can’t dismiss individuals as racist or thick or unread etc and I have to engage in opinion and evidence. As astute says you are then into predictions, of course based on best information and guess and I’m happy that then economically there is no doubt in the short and medium term that we should stay in the Eu but long term who can tell. If we look long term the discussion is different and much more on perception
I’m still on the opinion that it’s a dream of a more closet union of countries to pursue peace and success. I see a French man as no different to an english man as no different to a Christian to an atheist to a Muslim to an Iranian. We were all born with similar needs, all parents want their children to have opportunities that were more numerous than theirs.
I do fear that as the world becomes more binary and the extremist populist views become more mainstream that we will become more tribe like and confrontational
I’m happy I may be wrong but I can’t see Eu beyond the vision of a brighter future together than apart
I’ve enjoyed following this on here. I find it hard that genuine hard working good people can’t see things the way I do but I’ve realised that people have different opinions to me and they hold them principally. Once I recognise that I can’t dismiss individuals as racist or thick or unread etc and I have to engage in opinion and evidence. As astute says you are then into predictions, of course based on best information and guess and I’m happy that then economically there is no doubt in the short and medium term that we should stay in the Eu but long term who can tell. If we look long term the discussion is different and much more on perception
I’m still on the opinion that it’s a dream of a more closet union of countries to pursue peace and success. I see a French man as no different to an english man as no different to a Christian to an atheist to a Muslim to an Iranian. We were all born with similar needs, all parents want their children to have opportunities that were more numerous than theirs.
I do fear that as the world becomes more binary and the extremist populist views become more mainstream that we will become more tribe like and confrontational
I’m happy I may be wrong but I can’t see Eu beyond the vision of a brighter future together than apart
Astute
Well-Known Member
Very well put.
This is the problem with opinions. Once some people make their minds up on a subject they know they are right and won't listen to anything else. Especially if the subject benefits them in some way.
I am Atheist. I have a few questions that can't be answered that makes me think I can't be wrong. But I don't belittle believers. My wife is a church goer. All my children but one has been christened. You give the children the tools to make their own minds up. You don't preach what you believe.
I used to have religious debates with mates many years ago. We were always stoned to the bone. This way the debate could get heated but nobody could do anything about anything they saw as an insult. We had just about every well known religion in the room. Then you had me.
It is the same with Brexit. Not something that I believe in. But I am not willing to walk into it with a closed mind. The EU is full of shite. The UK government is full of shite. The UK opposition is full of shite.
We presently do more trade outside the EU than in it. And this us without being able to make trade deals outside the EU. So how can anyone make out that they know the future?
Yes the short term future could get bad. But that would mean at least one side wanting what is worse for them.
This leaving without a deal isn't leaving without a deal full stop. It is leaving without a deal whilst a deal is sorted out. Now the EU has said not a lot will change for at least a year after we leave. They have said it is to protect them and not us.
So consider this.
Now think again. Why would they want to protect themselves for the first year after leaving whilst we have trade negotiations and then not want some sort of trade deal that benefits them?
So what trade deal benefits them? We buy about twice the amount from them as they buy from us.
Immigration? It has always happened. Just not at the rate it has since 2000. And it will continue to happen after we leave. Anyone thinking differently and voted leave for this reason wasted their time. The only difference is that it will be a privilege and not a right.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Jeremy Hunt backs low-tax Singapore-style future for Britain after Brexit
How would this help the most deprived areas of the country and those who feel as though their voice isn’t being heard?
How would this help the most deprived areas of the country and those who feel as though their voice isn’t being heard?
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
You are stuck in the mindset that we need a large state redistributing money constantly between those that create wealth and those that do not. Singapore's model is to attract business, which creates jobs. Coupled with lower immigration this creates a demand for workers and pay rises. The savings in corporation tax go to workers instead of government. Workers have more money in their pockets and so they spend more: creating demand and bringing greater income to companies.
This could massively help the most deprived areas - creating lots of new jobs and higher wages.
This table shows GDP per capita (wealth the country produces per person - and hence average wealth per person). Singapore doesn't seem to be doing too badly.
What I do accept is that Singapore has higher inequality than the UK (Gini coeff of 45.9 for Singapore and 32.4 for UK). It also has a harsh penal code, which I don't like. I would imagine the inequality is driven by the thousands of Filipino maids on low wage. If we passed legislation for that and avoided the draconian law, we might have the best of both worlds.
I like some of the comments above about not being certain about things. I completely agree with them. I don't know that this would be a better model, even if I were an economics guru I couldn't be certain - but equally I'm not certain that it isn't.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Completely agree. It blows my mind that so many people are so bloody certain about everything - often very complex issues of which they have only the slightest understanding. I respect people who understand that their knowledge and beliefs are limited and they may be wrong.
I acknowledge that a lot of teachers work very hard (and the teachers in the inner city schools have my upmost respect and should be paid accordingly), however, when you look at the whole package - salary, pension (that private sector employees could only dream of) and holidays (13/14 weeks off a year - appreciate some would be needed for prep/planning) a number of them also do well.
The bigger issue from my (outside) perspective is the respect from parents and pupils. I’m sure most teachers would take that over just a pay increase
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The country needs investment in infrastructure and public services, I doubt that either of these would happen with such a model.
I was also under the impression that many felt the EU was setup to appease business at the expense of the people, how would this be any different? It’d be a country geared towards business first, it’s citizens second.
I’ve seen articles before about citizens in Singapore feel dehumanised, fair enough if that’s the sort of society that people want to live in. I certainly wouldn’t.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
In reality teachers spend those ‘holidays’ working. If it’s such a cushty job then why don’t more do it?
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Singapore has fantastic infrastructure; have been there many times for work - it's immaculate. However many people find it soulless. An old boss of mine, who used to run a branch in Singapore described it as being like Disneyland without the rides. I suspect that the penal system; the pristine condition of everything and the small size (and possibly the climate) may have more to do with that than the tax rules. And booze is really expensive!
Fair enough though; my point was more about having a low tax environment doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad for less wealthy areas of the country.
Not saying it’s a cushty job. I’m just saying there’s plenty of other jobs where people work as hard/harder, get less pay and perks.
I’d personally pay a premium to get good quality teachers into the most deprived areas/difficult to teach schools. It’s a totally different job to those in a predominantly middle/upper class area
Ps I know a fair few teachers and they don’t spend all those holidays working ! Yes, some of the time, like I might work during some of my (5 weeks) holidays but they still get more time off than most
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I'm glad to see that you haven't become less monotonically negative and miserable whilst I've been away, Tony.
There is poverty everywhere - every single country. And I already pointed out exactly the same point when quoting the Gini Coefficient (because poverty = inequality, they are both measures of the dispersion of wealth). You will be able to smile to yourself and think that you've 'won' every conversation if the only thing you ever do is look for a single imperfection within an imperfect world and post that.
Christ, reminds me why I vanished. Here you go, wallow in this:
12 Facts About Poverty in Europe | The Borgen Project
There is poverty everywhere - every single country. And I already pointed out exactly the same point when quoting the Gini Coefficient (because poverty = inequality, they are both measures of the dispersion of wealth). You will be able to smile to yourself and think that you've 'won' every conversation if the only thing you ever do is look for a single imperfection within an imperfect world and post that.
Christ, reminds me why I vanished. Here you go, wallow in this:
12 Facts About Poverty in Europe | The Borgen Project
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The point being that Singapore isn’t a good comparison. My link and your link together just go to prove that even more. A Singapore tax system post brexit isn’t going to change anything for the majority of those that voted brexit, it might even make their lives worse in terms of income gap. The likes of brexit poster boy Rees-Mogg on the other hand...
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Average wealth per person is a misleading statistic, the distribution of wealth is key to social prosperity.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Which government minister is going to eventually be found to have links to Seaborne Freight?
Seaborne is a newly formed ferry company with no assets who has never run a single ferry service which has been awarded a £14m freight service contract by the government to run between Ramsgate and Ostend in the event of a no deal Brexit.
The £14m will be paid even if there is never a ferry run and the contact was awarded without being put out to tender due to 'extreme urgency brought about by events unforeseeable for the contracting authority'. The contracting authority is the Dept of Transport who were apparently unaware we are due to leave the EU in March.
Seaborne is a newly formed ferry company with no assets who has never run a single ferry service which has been awarded a £14m freight service contract by the government to run between Ramsgate and Ostend in the event of a no deal Brexit.
The £14m will be paid even if there is never a ferry run and the contact was awarded without being put out to tender due to 'extreme urgency brought about by events unforeseeable for the contracting authority'. The contracting authority is the Dept of Transport who were apparently unaware we are due to leave the EU in March.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Good story. Just what we need. A story where allegations are made where there's no evidence in the slightest to back anything up.
It is always interesting to see who agrees with a story like this though.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
What's not true?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I wonder if it’s a token contract to make it look like British companies are benefiting from brexit as:
“The government has also awarded additional, much larger ferry contracts to French company Brittany Ferries and Danish shipping firm DFDS, worth £46.6m and £47.3m respectively.”
Taking back control by financing EU companies to sort out the brexit mess with taxpayers money.
No. Consider this.
As a percentage of our economy we sell more to them than they as a percentage of their economy sell to us. Then there are services where we earn a good percentage of gdp which could decrease.
They are a far bigger economy than we are.
They have the upper hand and have no further obligation to protect us, in fact we will become a competitor and they will be putting their members‘ interests first.
We have trade deals with non EU countries through the EU. These will cease when we leave, so we will have less trade deals with the rest of the world than we have now. WTO is the worst case scenario which is why no country in the world trades solely on WTO terms. We have quotas agreed under WTO rules at advantageous conditions via the EU. The WTO has already said that our share of the quotas will not be automatically be transferred to the U.K.. They will have to be renegotiated which could take years.
The main countries we want to trade with are China, India, USA, Japan and Australia. China has the upper hand because of it’s relative size and economic power. India is not an open market and has made it clear that it wants more visas for Indians to live and work in the UK. One way FOM, and no Empire 2.0. The USA is trying to make deals that favour it more than existing deals. No way will we get better terms on certain products than we have now. What do we have that we could increase sales of to the USA? Japan’s trade deal with the EU starts in February. Best case scenario is that we get the same as we would have had under EU conditions. Australia’s priority is a deal with the EU. That has to be sorted out first and then they will deal with U.K. as a distressed trading partner ( that was the term used in the discussion papers on the subject ). In all cases it could take years of negotiations to arrive at a comprehensive trade deal.
The EU is our biggest customer. Sticking two fingers up to our biggest customer doesn’t seem like a good idea to me.
How do you think we will fare against the pooled resources and experienced trade negotiators of the EU when it comes to negotiating a trade deal with the EU?
The government haven’t denied it. The empty disused dock at Ramsgate was shown on TV. The website of the company was full of bullshit. They have no ships. They have no staff. The company was worth 66£ according to the balance. It is a shell company formed two years ago and has yet to sail a ship.
Bury your head in the sand and say it is all propaganda if you wish, but I would like to know the exact date of setting up the shell company and what the link is to the government, or from whom the idea came. Very handy for someone.
No doubt you will be appalled.