Astute
Well-Known Member
Would the jobs have gone to Turkey if the EU didn't loan the money?
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (237 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I said it on this thread before, knowing others are suffering is no consation to me when our economy takes a hit.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
There probably are polls that back up the 64% remain statistic but polls are notoriously unreliable and it doesn't sit well with me calling for another referendum based on a poll.
I pretty much Disagree with Grendel on everything surrounding the Brexit issue but one thing I do agree with him on is let a pro EU party put a second referendum in their manifesto and if there is an appetite for it it will be reflected in how they perform in the next GE.
Someone else would have loaned the money. So they probably would. Ford makes the decisions.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Some people seem very willing to judge the success of brexit on the damage it inflicts on Germany and the wider EU economy. Any pros and cons to the U.K. seem secondary at best.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Good luck with that, unless you’ve got enough money to support you and your family, it’s unlikely you’d be allowed to settle there. Presumably you’re all fluent French speakers too?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
You really have selective amnesia in this discussion, you even tried to tell me to 'read my own source properly'. If you had read past the first paragraph you'd know I'm quoting from a legitimate source. Anyway...
These kinds of polls ask several questions. For the purposes of this debate, I've selected two key findings from this poll, conducted by YouGov which is independent. First, after the details of Theresa May's Brexit deal was published, support for remaining in the EU went up to 54% and leaving the EU had dropped to 46% from August. This shows that the public, knowing what Brexit is looking like, is not as keen on Brexit as it was in 2016.
Given the resistance to May's deal in Parliament, the poll asked voters what they thought of Brexit if May's deal was rejected in Parliament, which leaves the UK at the risk of exiting the EU without a deal, the % of those polled jumped up to 64% in favour of remaining to 36% in favour of still leaving the EU. Also, because Parliament is probably going to reject May's deal, this percentage is significant because the idea that the 2016 referendum meant that the public wanted to leave the EU at all costs is fatally flawed. People who believe that we should reject May's deal and leave the EU without deal just cannot masquerade as people who have the 'will of the people' at heart.
I have never claimed that Remain would get 64% of votes. The post you misquoting me is where I quote the source where it said: ‘If Ms May’s deal is voted down by MPs, that gap widened to 64 per cent to 36 per cent, excluding don’t knows’ which isn't the same thing as saying '64% of people would vote to Remain in a second referendum'. That was the first time you questioned the source, now you've gone full circle and done it again. Stop wasting both our time.
These polls are not perfect, I've never claimed that, but they're important because they gauge public opinion. They're not predicting the outcome of a second referendum and neither have I.
I'll post the link yet again, at least the third time I have done so. Have the decency to debate issues properly.
Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You’ve never said it could be 64% that would vote remain then? That’s odd I think you have - I’ll take look
I also think you previously said opinion polls shouldn’t be used as a basis for referendums - odd as I’m sure you have - I’ll have a look
By the way stop trying to be a condescending c**t.
You haven’t the intellect, knowledge, gravitas or humour to warrant it
Hilarious. ROFL. The insults are already coming out. First the attempt to appear reasonable and intelligent... now it's fxxk that I'll get the insults out.
If he hasn't got these properties, are you implying that you have?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
He’s like you. He makes a statement then denies he said it - then when shown the evidence he said he he carries on in a state of denial
I only “get the insults out” for people who are beyond the point of discussion
Why doesn’t he just be honest and say he wants a second referendum as he and his Ilk lost the first and he has spat his dummy out rather than try and wrap it all up in some pseudo intellectual justification.
He is arrogant and condescending so can have what he gives out.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You’re asking someone who refuses to understand that when a jockey falls of its horse the horse follows its two basic instincts of flight and herding so continues running as opposed to some childish assumption that horses love horse racing to debate on facts presented so don’t hold your breath.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Says the person who disregards the opinion of those who are not a certain age and who disagree with him.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Yes have the money. Don't need much. Just enough to buy property and some left in bank for wife. I would keep my job until I am 55 then retire. But might have to take up French residency. Not exactly fluent but have been visiting for over 30 years. Would expect to be fluent within 6 months.
Lots to sort out. Lots to think about.
Astute
Well-Known Member
You quoted 'at least 64% would vote remain. I pointed it out and said you would make up excuses for saying so. It is the way if this thread.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Find the exact quote.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Have you changed it?
You have admitted you said 64%. You said 64% or 54% or whatever after I questioned you about it....Or words to that effect.
This just shows the bullshit of this thread up. I don't want Brexit. But I hate lies and liars. I dislike it when people try to twist the truth to preach to me. I would be agreeing with most of what is said by the remain at any cost lot on here if they could be truthful.
Just like we will suffer badly but everyone else will be OK. Or that the EU and countries in the EU will be good without us. They hate me putting up an unbiased side to the......was going to say debate but it isn't. It always ends up being an argument. I nearly always back up everything I say with links. But they get ignored and stupid comments are then made.
Good fun isn't it......
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Grendel, you brought age into this debate as if that has any relevance to the issues at hand, you can't call anyone condescending without being a hypocrite. With all due respect.
You can't find the quote, and instead of considering you made an error, I must've changed what I said. I've took the liberty to look for both of you, and you've got nothing on me. I'm very clearly quoting pollsters because I've reviewed my recent activity on this thread and all of my posts are unedited.
1) "Whichever way you spin it, it appears the public opinion is turning against Brexit. Be it 54% or 64%, depending on circumstance, it seems fundamentally wrong to drag the public through the Brexit process without another say in the matter. Pollsters will track public opinion, that’s their job. It’s asked the public questions and the results are their findings." — unedited
2) "I’m not a pollster, but here are their findings.
‘If Ms May’s deal is voted down by MPs, that gap widened to 64 per cent to 36 per cent, excluding don’t knows.’" — unedited
3) "The poll by YouGov found 54% were in favour of remaining after Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement was published. YouGov is the independent pollster. So both independent and biased pollsters have found the same thing. 54% is still a larger margin than the 51.8% that voted for Brexit in 2016.
I’ve never come across anyone so intellectually high-handed who lacks intellect. Your arguments are all bark and no bite. I was taught to not make sweeping statements at GCSE level — that’s the bedrock of your arguments." — unedited
4) "You're entitled to that opinion, but it seems more and more people think it's a good idea -- 54% of those polled would be 'screaming babies', in fact, some of them would've voted leave in 2016. 64% of those polled favours Remain if May's deal is voted down in Parliament, and there's definitely Brexiteers who would've flipped sides in that scenario.
As I mentioned in other posts, another win for Leave would do wonders for the Brexiteers in Parliament and would almost probably oust May and elevate someone like Rees-Mogg or BoJo to PM." — unedited
Astute
Well-Known Member
Brexit 'in danger' unless MPs back deal - PM
This is interesting. I don't know what to believe though. Mayhem says some changes were agreed with the EU. But previously the EU said no changes have been made or would be. Could well be a play on words. Like the EU rewording it and Mayhem saying it has changed.
This is interesting. I don't know what to believe though. Mayhem says some changes were agreed with the EU. But previously the EU said no changes have been made or would be. Could well be a play on words. Like the EU rewording it and Mayhem saying it has changed.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Not looked for your posts. Got better things to do with my time. But the part you have put up was the one you did after I questioned you on your at least 64% would vote remain.
So now you agree that the poll said 54%. Less than the polls said just before the referendum.
He said:
‘If Ms May’s deal is voted down by MPs, that gap widened to 64 per cent to 36 per cent, excluding don’t knows.’" — unedited
Please read the post. It says: "excluding don't knows"
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Oh no he said something else as well
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It’s more likely just her attempts to scare MPs into voting for it - she must know she is on borrowed time, if her deal is voted down then I don’t see how she can remain as PM.
It’s been refreshing over here not getting Brexit news 24/7, the only reference to it so far has been the Italian government saying that it would ensure Briton’s rights in the event of no deal.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
You can tell you’re just not reading my posts properly because you’re misrepresenting just about every point I make.
The sample size of 25,000 was asked numerous questions, one said 54% are now in favour of remaining in the EU. This was after May’s deal was published. The other one that says 64% asked their view on Brexit if May’s deal was rejected by Parliament.
Stop presenting it as one question asked by pollsters. They asked many questions such as; opinion on a second referendum and whether or not Brexit deal will make ‘younger people worse off’ or not.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Find it then. Put up or shut up.
Astute
Well-Known Member
My sister has had the same in France. She was sent official documents to sign.
I can see Mayhem staying until this farce is sorted with the direction it is going in. I can see the Tories coming out of this stronger than before. They have the bonus of not wanting out of the EU which could keep the remainers happy and negotiating to take us out that could keep the leavers happy. Then you have Labour who nobody knows what the official line is for sure. So a new leader at the right time could well be good for them.
Astute
Well-Known Member
I take it you deleted it then. I remember you putting at least 64% would vote remain. And I always admit when I am wrong. But I know I am not.
Astute
Well-Known Member
And as usual I will say the same thing. Where was the poll taken. Were all able to vote.
Polls are good for making a point that can't be proved or disproved. I was one of them that took big odds on us voting leave. And the polls said much more than 54% were voting remain.
Here is a result of 52 different polls in the last few months. The question was is if there is another referendum how would they vote.
If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?
There has been several times that a quarter or more have said they are undecided. Leave/remain seem to go up/down together. Would love to.know how you get the 64% if there is another referendum. This one would be more accurate as it is 52 polls and not just one that says what you want it to. But it still won't be accurate.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Evidently not.
Someone must've quoted me saying this phantom statistic, so it will be recorded somewhere if I said it. You've made a claim about what I've said and you can't back it up. Instead of admitting you may have misread or misquoted what I said, you're just going to desperate lengths here. First it was I edited what I said, all of my posts mentioning the polls were unedited, now you think for some reason there's a rogue post that I've deleted? Co'mon that isn't even plausible. I haven't deleted any posts on this thread.
He never does and then he tells you want you think and what you have said.
Oh my god... what crap. SB admitted he was wrong recently and I did once when I was wrong. As the guy said „put up or shut up“. I posted where he said 64% without the don’t knows. Why don’t you just admit that’s the 64% you read and say you missed the bit about the don’t knows. It is easy enough to make a mistake.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Had a quick look. This one shows your lack of accuracy. And it is on the 64% subject.
Your link says that if the May deal was not backed 64% would want another referendum. But you state it as 64% would vote remain.
Maybe I am wrong and this is where you got the truth wrong and not what I was thinking. Yet I suppose you could still state that 64% would vote remain.
One more point. It is a YouGov poll. Their polls always put remain ahead. Or would you like to show one of their polls where leave was in front like the other pollsters get.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
YouGov, its main poll asked people how they would vote in another referendum, that scored 54-46% in favour of remaining in the EU. Alongside this it asked numerous questions in relation to Brexit and a second referendum. Including how people would vote in a referendum if May's deal was rejected in Parliament, that is the poll that scored 64-36% in favour of Remain. The first % is based on how things are right now, and the second % relates to hypothetical, but realistic scenario of May's deal being rejected.
I'll just copy and paste the whole article because you haven't read the article.
"A growing majority of voters would back the UK remaining in the European Union if a fresh referendum was held, a poll suggests.
Support for the UK staying in the bloc was at 54 per cent, according to a YouGov survey carried out after Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement text was published on Wednesday night.
The poll found 46 per cent would back the Leave side – down two percentage points compared with a survey conducted in August.
Almost six in ten (59 per cent) also backed holding a fresh referendum – once “don’t knows” were discounted – the poll, commissioned by the People’s Vote and published in the Evening Standard, found.
If Ms May’s deal is voted down by MPs, that gap widened to 64 per cent to 36 per cent, excluding don’t knows.
It comes after The Independent launched the Final Say campaign for the public to have a vote on Ms May’s Brexit deal, with a petition that has garnered more than one million supporters.
The poll of 1,153 people found 46 per cent of people believed that, under the proposed Brexit deal, younger people will be worse off compared with their parents’ generation.
Just 15 per cent said they believed children today would end up better off as a result of the deal agreed with Brussels.
A majority also said they feared taxes would rise (43 per cent, against 30 per cent who said they would stay the same and 4 per cent who believed they would go down) and the NHS would get worse (40 per cent, compared with 29 per cent who said it would stay the same and 14 per cent who said it would improve).
Little more than one in 10 (12 per cent) believed the UK was going to get a good deal with the EU.
Ms May’s deal came under a hail of criticism in the House of Commons, where only a handful of Tories spoke in favour of an agreement thrashed out over 19 months of intensive negotiations.
There was laughter from opposition benches when the PM said her deal would allow the UK to leave the EU “in a smooth and orderly way” on 29 March."
Link: Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave
Astute
Well-Known Member
Here it is again from the one you just put up yet again. Read it and reconsider what it says. It isn't that 64% would vote leave as you keep saying.
This is from YouGov as you keep saying. But why should all other polls be ignored as they are not from YouGov?
Why do you think that YouGov polls always show remain leading?
He never said 64% would vote leave. 64% would back a fresh referendum according to what he highlighted. 46% would back leave in a referendum.
The vote would be 64:36 if May’s Plan were voted down in parliament.
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