The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (128 Viewers)

[Astute]

May is the one that won’t budge - yet Corbyn gets the flak. From a media perspective this couldn’t play out any better for them if they tried... and you’ve bought the narrative.

Again, comes back to the perception of leadership. May supposedly is perceived as a strong leader for making no concessions on a deal that got slaughtered in Parliament. Corbyn is supposedly a weak leader for setting out clearly what needs to change in order to have a meaningful discussion and produce a workable outcome.

You literally couldn’t make this shit up if you tried.

May is following what the public voted for. Corbyn is saying that he must have something that isn't allowed by law it is said.

All other parties have spoken to May. Corbyn says to others in Labour that they are not allowed to speak to May.

The May deal is disliked by most as leavers don't want to be stuck in the EU by the backstop and remainers don't want to leave. But they want it sorting out. Corbyn is refusing to put his voice forward. This is why many don't like his way.

 

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[Sick Boy]

May is the one that won’t budge - yet Corbyn gets the flak. From a media perspective this couldn’t play out any better for them if they tried... and you’ve bought the narrative.

Again, comes back to the perception of leadership. May supposedly is perceived as a strong leader for making no concessions on a deal that got slaughtered in Parliament. Corbyn is supposedly a weak leader for setting out clearly what needs to change in order to have a meaningful discussion and produce a workable outcome.

You literally couldn’t make this shit up if you tried.

The notion that May is a strong or difficult leaders is an absolute myth perpetuated by the media

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Can’t believe the audience in derby. Can’t work out if they are thick stupid or arrogant. I think arrogant. Presented with the consequence of leaving without a deal a majority were quite happy to say fair enough it’s gonna be bad but we’ll take it. Just wow!!!

Looks like the hundreds of people who are moving to work on no deal planning in my department are going to be busy

Grrrr! Those bloody idiots in Derby who voted leave still want to leave! And they really mean it! They want their decision to be honoured by Parliament! Bloody nerve! One of them even had the cheek to tell Dianne Abbott that he was more scared of her becoming Home Secretary than leaving on WTO terms! What the hell is wrong with these idiots? Haven’t they been listening to us telling them we’d be crashing out, driving over a cliff edge? Don’t they realise they should be scared?

They must be thick, stupid or arrogant. No other explanation for it.

 

[martcov]

May is following what the public voted for. Corbyn is saying that he must have something that isn't allowed by law it is said.

All other parties have spoken to May. Corbyn says to others in Labour that they are not allowed to speak to May.

The May deal is disliked by most as leavers don't want to be stuck in the EU by the backstop and remainers don't want to leave. But they want it sorting out. Corbyn is refusing to put his voice forward. This is why many don't like his way.

Either May is delivering what the people voted for, or May‘s deal is disliked by most of the voters, including leavers, it cannot be both.

 

[martcov]

Grrrr! Those bloody idiots in Derby who voted leave still want to leave! And they really mean it! They want their decision to be honoured by Parliament! Bloody nerve! One of them even had the cheek to tell Dianne Abbott that he was more scared of her becoming Home Secretary than leaving on WTO terms! What the hell is wrong with these idiots? Haven’t they been listening to us telling them we’d be crashing out, driving over a cliff edge? Don’t they realise they should be scared?

They must be thick, stupid or arrogant. No other explanation for it.

All three?

 

[Otis]

May is the one that won’t budge - yet Corbyn gets the flak. From a media perspective this couldn’t play out any better for them if they tried... and you’ve bought the narrative.

Again, comes back to the perception of leadership. May supposedly is perceived as a strong leader for making no concessions on a deal that got slaughtered in Parliament. Corbyn is supposedly a weak leader for setting out clearly what needs to change in order to have a meaningful discussion and produce a workable outcome.

You literally couldn’t make this shit up if you tried.

I don't think I have bought the narrative at all.

Fact is all he needed to do was turn up and and say what he is saying publicly anyway.

It may be rather trivial, but he is coming across as obtrusive and all the focus is now on him and not on the other parties who said exactly the same thing, but did show up.

All the public see is a letter from the PM showing her disappointment that he won't talk when that is exactly what the general public have been crying out for all politicians to do.

He is playing into the Tories hands at the moment and everyone is ignoring the SNP and Green and others' views, which are pretty much exactly the same.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Come on Pete was supposed to have been a little laugh in a thread of doom.and gloom. Should have been obvious.

Or are you saying I make my own points? If so I can point you in the direction of a few who do it all day every day on this thread.

Oh no that’s cool and you weren’t wrong

 

[Otis]

The notion that May is a strong or difficult leaders is an absolute myth perpetuated by the media

Total agree.

It's the public falling for it that worries me.

 

[Otis]

Okay, suppose for a minute, it comes down to May's deal or no Deal.

The DUP will surely back no deal. Just wondering how we think the Tories will vote. What will the majority be if it comes down simply to these two scenario's and nothing else?

Would I be right in guessing that the fear of a no deal is so strong amongst some MP's that they will come down on May's side?

I am only talking about the Tories here.

If it is just down to the Tories and the DUP, would it be May's deal that would win the day?

 

[Astute]

The notion that May is a strong or difficult leaders is an absolute myth perpetuated by the media

May is bloody difficult. Strong is debatable though.

 

[Otis]

May is bloody difficult. Strong is debatable though.

Stubborn and determined probably best describes her.

 

[Astute]

Okay, suppose for a minute, it comes down to May's deal or no Deal.

The DUP will surely back no deal. Just wondering how we think the Tories will vote. What will the majority be if it comes down simply to these two scenario's and nothing else?

Would I be right in guessing that the fear of a no deal is so strong amongst some MP's that they will come down on May's side?

I am only talking about the Tories here.

If it is just down to the Tories and the DUP, would it be May's deal that would win the day?

The no deal won't go through. We won't even fully leave the EU. The MP's won't allow it.

It makes me laugh when Cameron says he doesn't regret the referendum and we should accept the May deal.

 

[Astute]

Stubborn and determined probably best describes her.

More like it :shy:

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Both May and Corbyn are tied in knots by all the differing factions within their parties.

Whatever they do they are going to alienate large chunks of their party, so I can kind of see the reluctance to unequivocally come down on one side of the other.

Has the country ever been so split over an issue?

Think the Tories always have been but the new split is in the white working class labour vote being anti Eu for a host of reasons referred to by astute above. That’s the new issue and Gordon brown’s incident with the lady just proved labour were out of touch wit their core support. Looks like Lib Dem’s and snp are very clear remaining is the only sensible option and liberals are way way behind in uk but snp will win every seat in Scotland

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Grrrr! Those bloody idiots in Derby who voted leave still want to leave! And they really mean it! They want their decision to be honoured by Parliament! Bloody nerve! One of them even had the cheek to tell Dianne Abbott that he was more scared of her becoming Home Secretary than leaving on WTO terms! What the hell is wrong with these idiots? Haven’t they been listening to us telling them we’d be crashing out, driving over a cliff edge? Don’t they realise they should be scared?

They must be thick, stupid or arrogant. No other explanation for it.

There was a lecturer from kings college an expert in Eu relations and law telling them what the consequences were dispationately and clearly. He was ignored and villified by some and it appears you for peddling fear not fact. He is an expert with no axe to grind.

 

[martcov]

The no deal won't go through. We won't even fully leave the EU. The MP's won't allow it.

It makes me laugh when Cameron says he doesn't regret the referendum and we should accept the May deal.

What do you mean fully leave? In means we have a say at the table. Not in means we don’t. How can we be in at the table, but not in at the table? You are just covering your bets.

 

[Astute]

What do you mean fully leave? In means we have a say at the table. Not in means we don’t. How can we be in at the table, but not in at the table? You are just covering your bets.

As usual you read what you want and add what you need.

So what table is this what I am supposed to have mentioned?

As I keep saying MP's won't let us leave the EU. May doesn't really want us to leave the EU. She is showing that she wants to keep up with what the people voted for. But she also knows she has ready made excuses.

Staying in the EU somehow means a few choices are open. Even a deal like Norway other before is possible. I am not covering my bets. I am saying that we will not leave without a deal. I am also saying that we won't leave without solid ties to the EU. But only an idiot would say more than this.

So how about the links I put up for you that you tried to deny?

 

[Astute]

There was a lecturer from kings college an expert in Eu relations and law telling them what the consequences were dispationately and clearly. He was ignored and villified by some and it appears you for peddling fear not fact. He is an expert with no axe to grind.

The problem is that so much bullshit has been said by both sides that some will never change their minds. And some will not consider anything they don't want whatever evidence is put in front of them.

 

[Ian1779]

May is following what the public voted for. Corbyn is saying that he must have something that isn't allowed by law it is said.

All other parties have spoken to May. Corbyn says to others in Labour that they are not allowed to speak to May.

The May deal is disliked by most as leavers don't want to be stuck in the EU by the backstop and remainers don't want to leave. But they want it sorting out. Corbyn is refusing to put his voice forward. This is why many don't like his way.

May No.1 priority is her party. She won't take no deal off the table as that is her route out with her party intact. She wants Corbyn to come out for Remain. This is now her strategy - to highlight the party that will and will not respect the result.

May and Corbyn both know that they have to find a way to leave one way or the other. Corbyn knows that in reality it either has to be an amended version of May's deal, or him renegotiating as PM (very unlikely), however this means May and her party are screwed. May knows that her only route out is no deal or her amending her deal (risking tearing her party in two).

So we're at an impasse - with only one of them in control. May is holding the keys here.

Benn and Cooper spoke to the Government in their select committee roles and sent the same message as Corbyn. The no-deal stance is one thing the party seems quite united on.

If you look at today's papers, the narrative from a month ago has completely changed. Last month Corbyn was facing revolt for not backing a PV/2nd Ref - now he faces revolt if he does.

 

[Sick Boy]

May is bloody difficult. Strong is debatable though.

I don't think she is difficult whatsoever, she is mostly ineffective

 

[Astute]

May No.1 priority is her party. She won't take no deal off the table as that is her route out with her party intact. She wants Corbyn to come out for Remain. This is now her strategy - to highlight the party that will and will not respect the result.

May and Corbyn both know that they have to find a way to leave one way or the other. Corbyn knows that in reality it either has to be an amended version of May's deal, or him renegotiating as PM (very unlikely), however this means May and her party are screwed. May knows that her only route out is no deal or her amending her deal (risking tearing her party in two).

So we're at an impasse - with only one of them in control. May is holding the keys here.

Benn and Cooper spoke to the Government in their select committee roles and sent the same message as Corbyn. The no-deal stance is one thing the party seems quite united on.

If you look at today's papers, the narrative from a month ago has completely changed. Last month Corbyn was facing revolt for not backing a PV/2nd Ref - now he faces revolt if he does.

If Corbyn would say what he wants there would be less guessing on the subject. But as he has said nothing all sides can have a go at him. He needs to open his mouth and say what his plans or thoughts are or it will continue.

 

[skybluetony176]

There was a lecturer from kings college an expert in Eu relations and law telling them what the consequences were dispationately and clearly. He was ignored and villified by some and it appears you for peddling fear not fact. He is an expert with no axe to grind.

He had the audacity to explain what the major employers in the area were trying to tell them. Naughty man. I just hope that when there are job losses in the area leave voters will be lining up to take voluntary redundancy first and remainers are at the back of the queues for any other redundancies. After all, leavers are willing to accept short term pain for long term gain. Let’s see them demonstrate the courage of their convictions.

 

[Otis]

He had the audacity to explain what the major employers in the area were trying to tell them. Naughty man. I just hope that when there are job losses in the area leave voters will be lining up to take voluntary redundancy first and remainers are at the back of the queues for any other redundancies. After all, leavers are willing to accept short term pain for long term gain. Let’s see them demonstrate the courage of their convictions.

I wonder what they think is short term.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

There was a lecturer from kings college an expert in Eu relations and law telling them what the consequences were dispationately and clearly. He was ignored and villified by some and it appears you for peddling fear not fact. He is an expert with no axe to grind.

The excellent and eloquent Isabel Oakeshott was the undoubted star of the show. Your description of the audience as being thick, stupid and arrogant would be better directed to the national embarrassment that is Diane Abbott.

 

[Captain Dart]

The blue passport myth was priceless and typical of the crap spewed out by the tabloids

It is crap because it is irrelevant to anyone, just like the myth of chlorinated chicken flooding the supermarkets.

 

[skybluetony176]

It is crap because it is irrelevant to anyone, just like the myth of chlorinated chicken flooding the supermarkets.

You were saying
Chlorinated chicken may be the least of our worries when it comes to signing a trade deal with Trump

 

[skybluetony176]

The excellent and eloquent Isabel Oakeshott was the undoubted star of the show. Your description of the audience as being thick, stupid and arrogant would be better directed to the national embarrassment that is Diane Abbott.

Farmageddon is an interesting read. Not sure how the principals in that book will tally with a US trade deal though.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I've been thinking about this a bit (dull, I know). The only way I can think of how the withdrawal agreement might get through (placating enough MPs without pissing off too many of the others), is if there is a commitment putting a vote to either entering a customs union or the backstop at the end of the transition period, if a suitable trade agreement hasn't been reached with the EU.

The concern would be that the EU would have little incentive to negotiate anything different (however, with our MPs shouting 'take no deal off the table' and 'we'd agree to a customs union' from the rooftops...they have already consistently weakened our negotiating hand, unlike the impressive solidarity shown by the EU countries)....which is why I come back to my original (if unpopular view) that Mays deal, whilst a mess, was as good as we could probably get as a compromise to see us through to the next phase. The margin of the loss shows a total lack of appreciation of the realistic options or a total unwillingness to compromise (or the belief that a GE could be forced). If GE is off the table I wonder if more labour would support a revised agreement with the above amendment ?

I bet being a party whip (for either party) is fun at the moment !!! The MPs are out of control !

Just a reminder that (my understanding at least is) a withdrawal agreement/transition period is required for any scenario unless its a No Deal or we extend or revoke article 50.

 

[martcov]

It is crap because it is irrelevant to anyone, just like the myth of chlorinated chicken flooding the supermarkets.

No. It was sold to leavers by Farage and the Brexit press as the first tangible benefit of Brexit.

 

[martcov]

I've been thinking about this a bit (dull, I know). The only way I can think of how the withdrawal agreement might get through (placating enough MPs without pissing off too many of the others), is if there is a commitment putting a vote to either entering a customs union or the backstop at the end of the transition period, if a suitable trade agreement hasn't been reached with the EU.

The concern would be that the EU would have little incentive to negotiate anything different (however, with our MPs shouting 'take no deal off the table' and 'we'd agree to a customs union' from the rooftops...they have already consistently weakened our negotiating hand, unlike the impressive solidarity shown by the EU countries)....which is why I come back to my original (if unpopular view) that Mays deal, whilst a mess, was as good as we could probably get as a compromise to see us through to the next phase. The margin of the loss shows a total lack of appreciation of the realistic options or a total unwillingness to compromise (or the belief that a GE could be forced). If GE is off the table I wonder if more labour would support a revised agreement with the above amendment ?

I bet being a party whip (for either party) is fun at the moment !!! The MPs are out of control !

Just a reminder that (my understanding at least is) a withdrawal agreement/transition period is required for any scenario unless its a No Deal or we extend or revoke article 50.

No transition period with no deal, just contingency measures, which are not as comprehensive as the transition period.

 

[martcov]

As usual you read what you want and add what you need.

So what table is this what I am supposed to have mentioned?

As I keep saying MP's won't let us leave the EU. May doesn't really want us to leave the EU. She is showing that she wants to keep up with what the people voted for. But she also knows she has ready made excuses.

Staying in the EU somehow means a few choices are open. Even a deal like Norway other before is possible. I am not covering my bets. I am saying that we will not leave without a deal. I am also saying that we won't leave without solid ties to the EU. But only an idiot would say more than this.

So how about the links I put up for you that you tried to deny?

I haven’t read your links, but I know what they will be. I’ll read them later.

The table is metaphorical. It is an expression which has been used in this debate. It means sitting at a table with 27 other countries of the EU in the council, MEPs in the parliament, an EU commissioner in the commission and UK MEPs taking part on many committees. If we leave, we have no say at all at the „table“. Norway has no say, but pays in and is bound by some EU rules and accepts FOM. But Norway is out of, not in the EU.

 

[clint van damme]

You were saying
Chlorinated chicken may be the least of our worries when it comes to signing a trade deal with Trump

Trump tells May to abandon 'unjustified' food standards for Brexit trade deal

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If Corbyn would say what he wants there would be less guessing on the subject. But as he has said nothing all sides can have a go at him. He needs to open his mouth and say what his plans or thoughts are or it will continue.

How much clearer can 'take no deal off the table', 'keep us in the customs union' with 'protections for workers and the environment' -- the Labour position is clear.

The opposition doesn't need a clear cut policy because we're not in an election cycle so has the privilege of keeping all its options open. Outside forces, other opposition and the Government wants a 'People's Vote' to become official Labour policy, which Corbyn should not back, yet.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The problem is that so much bullshit has been said by both sides that some will never change their minds. And some will not consider anything they don't want whatever evidence is put in front of them.

Course I completely understand that and agree that it’s reasonable for people to feel that way.

But and it’s big. But he laid out the reality for rolls Royce and Toyota and they didn’t care that Toyota would suspend all operations in the event of a no deal.

One guy said merkel wants to sell 850000 cars to us so it will get sorted. Mmmmm

Worrying.

It’s alnost like me and my faith. Some things I find hard to explain but I accept them as reality and work through my understanding and others just think I’m an idiot to believe the things I do

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The excellent and eloquent Isabel Oakeshott was the undoubted star of the show. Your description of the audience as being thick, stupid and arrogant would be better directed to the national embarrassment that is Diane Abbott.

Yep why would they put her on massive own goal. I though the star was the lecturer and it was members of the audience not the audience. It was more than a few though which when shown the reality of Toyota and rolls Royce with a no deal I found troubling. What would you say? Confident in their assertions? Not arrogant. I meet loads of people who sound confident about stuff they know nothing about and that’s what I thought listening to their dimissal of a complete shut down of the Toyota plant