The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (36 Viewers)

[Astute]

He'll probably be unseated in another election. His current situation can't exactly help him.

How can their position be clearer? Honestly, I am curious.

They set out the following process: assess the Govt deal alongside its criteria (Customs Union being key to that), if the govt failed to pass it, call for an election, and if there are no alternatives, call for a 2nd Ref.

Don't get me wrong, it is pretty complicated, but the policy framework, to me, seems pretty clear.

What does Corbyn want then? You say it us clear and he is Labour leader.

Don't know which way it will go. A lot of people vote for him because of the good job he does. But many will still want to vote Labour. Corbyn has lost a good MP with his actions.

 

---

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I was gonna check but couldn’t be arsed. They’ll wipeout every other party in Scotland

They probably won't because they have some very, very marginal seats. They won one seat by 2 votes, another by 21, 60 and 75. About 14 seats that are very marginal and frankly, their record in the Scottish parliament isn't the greatest. That said, they're predicted to win back some seats they lost in 2017.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What does Corbyn want then? You say it us clear and he is Labour leader.

Don't know which way it will go. A lot of people vote for him because of the good job he does. But many will still want to vote Labour. Corbyn has lost a good MP with his actions.

Hang on, John Woodcock was suspended from the Labour Party because he had allegations of sexual harassment made against him and he didn't want to cooperate with the internal Labour investigation! Corbyn didn't push him away, although Woodcock is not a fan, it's his alleged inappropriate behaviour.

That was the policy set at the annual conference in 2018, and Corbyn is sticking to that.

 

[Astute]

Hang on, John Woodcock was suspended from the Labour Party because he had allegations of sexual harassment made against him and he didn't want to cooperate with the internal Labour investigation! Corbyn didn't push him away, although Woodcock is not a fan, it's his alleged inappropriate behaviour.

That was the policy set at the annual conference in 2018, and Corbyn is sticking to that.

Hang on.

Woodcock has frequently been vocal against Corbyn. Yes an allegation was made. He 100% denies everything. There has been no evidence. But they didn't follow procedures. They were told that they had to follow procedures. They still refused to follow. John then resigned from the Labour party and went independent.

MP John Woodcock quits Labour amid disciplinary case

Yes I do know him personally. One of his children was in the same class of one of mine. He is working on a local project where my wife is on the committee. He actually cares about our community. He is also very generous. The last sports day I was at was very hot. He got permission off the head to let an ice cream van onto the school field and he bought every child an ice cream. You should have seen the queue.

 

[Sick Boy]

1, Your.posts are all about remaining in the EU whatever and having a go at anyone who doesn't do the same.e.

2, who said you voted for Lib Dems? So what are you making up this time?

My facts? It isn't me that constantly makes things up. You need a mirror to see who that is.

No they aren’t, I’ve repeatedly said about the EEA, which isn’t “remaining in the EU whatever” - so youre making something up to fit your agenda. Yes, remain was my personal preference, but as I’ve said, I recognise that compromise is needed, hence my posts.

You said I’d vote for any party offering remain, which I believe they did at the last election - something else you’ve made up.

Also we’ve had your posts claiming posters were attacking you for criticising Cameron and Blair, which no one on here has ever done.

And then you claims others make things up.

 

[Astute]

No they aren’t, I’ve repeatedly said about the EEA, which isn’t “remaining in the EU whatever” - so youre making something up to fit your agenda. Yes, remain was my personal preference, but as I’ve said, I recognise that compromise is needed, hence my posts.

You said I’d vote for any party offering remain, which I believe they did at the last election - something else you’ve made up.

Also we’ve had your posts claiming posters were attacking you for criticising Cameron and Blair, which no one on here has ever done.

And then you claims others make things up.

Let's look at your post in detail.

EEA rules. So what us different between EEA and full membership other if the EU other than we would lose the small say we have presently?

So if Labour and the Tories wanted fully out if the EU and another party wanted to remain you wouldn't vote for the party that wants to remain? You don't half live to make a tall story.

Show me where I have said i have been criticised for calling out Cameron as you have stated it here. But yes me being a Labour supporter has been questioned several times as I detest what Bliar did and I don't think Corbyn should be leader. But go on then add Cameron as it makes your story look better.

 

[shmmeee]

Let's look at your post in detail.

EEA rules. So what us different between EEA and full membership other if the EU other than we would lose the small say we have presently?

So if Labour and the Tories wanted fully out if the EU and another party wanted to remain you wouldn't vote for the party that wants to remain? You don't half live to make a tall story.

Show me where I have said u have been criticised for calling out Cameron as you have stated it here. But yes me being a Labour supporter has been questioned several times as I detest what Bliar did and I don't think Corbyn should be leader. But go on then add Cameron as it makes your story look better.

Only absolute nutters vote from someone other than the big two/three parties in FPTP.

You can tell this because all the Remainers voted Labour in 2017 despite Labour saying they’d honour the referendum.

 

[Astute]

Only absolute nutters vote from someone other than the big two/three parties in FPTP.

You can tell this because all the Remainers voted Labour in 2017 despite Labour saying they’d honour the referendum.

Labour said they would honour the referendum and May was taking us out of the EU. So what other choice of a main party was there?

Absolute nutters or whatever you want to call them will vote for what they want. I said lots of times that I could see a Brexit party forming if we didn't leave and that there was a chance of Farage coming back. It will happen now as we will not leave the EU in March.

If this new party takes about 1/3 Off the Tories and 1/3 off Labour it will be close. Most areas in England voted leave. How pissed off is the public that their wishes are being ignored?

And for those who say they won't get many seats if any at all.... Some areas had a large leave majority. Even the parties are getting ripped apart from infighting. This is a situation we have never been in before.

 

[shmmeee]

Labour said they would honour the referendum and May was taking us out of the EU. So what other choice of a main party was there?

Absolute nutters or whatever you want to call them will vote for what they want. I said lots of times that I could see a Brexit party forming if we didn't leave and that there was a chance of Farage coming back. It will happen now as we will not leave the EU in March.

If this new party takes about 1/3 Off the Tories and 1/3 off Labour it will be close. Most areas in England voted leave. How pissed off is the public that their wishes are being ignored?

And for those who say they won't get many seats if any at all.... Some areas had a large leave majority. Even the parties are getting ripped apart from infighting. This is a situation we have never been in before.

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. But I’ll happily give you a gentlemens bet that there will be no insurgent party at the next GE that polls above 15%

 

[Astute]

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. But I’ll happily give you a gentlemens bet that there will be no insurgent party at the next GE that polls above 15%

Is that a bet for nothing?

Don't know if I can afford that much

Nobody knows what will happen. But the racists will stay at UKIP as they have become a racist party. This new one will get the votes that left UKIP because of racism and that they got the result they wanted. But on top of this there are those absolutely pissed off that parliament are going to go against their wishes.

This isn't me saying it is what I want like some on here have alleged. It could be the worse thing that could happen. The thing is it could bring everyone around the table and sort this shite out more quickly. Get it sorted before this new party picks up momentum. And the EU certainly knows all about Farage. They won't want to risk it taking off either.

It has complicated an already complicated situation.

 

[shmmeee]

Is that a bet for nothing?

Don't know if I can afford that much

Nobody knows what will happen. But the racists will stay at UKIP as they have become a racist party. This new one will get the votes that left UKIP because of racism and that they got the result they wanted. But on top of this there are those absolutely pissed off that parliament are going to go against their wishes.

This isn't me saying it is what I want like some on here have alleged. It could be the worse thing that could happen. The thing is it could bring everyone around the table and sort this shite out more quickly. Get it sorted before this new party picks up momentum. And the EU certainly knows all about Farage. They won't want to risk it taking off either.

It has complicated an already complicated situation.

It is. Happy to do £10 to charity if you like.

Edit: also I would t worry about Farage, the man’s a joke and wants to be a celeb not a leader. He’d run a mile if he accidentally won an election.

 

[Sick Boy]

Let's look at your post in detail.

EEA rules. So what us different between EEA and full membership other if the EU other than we would lose the small say we have presently?

So if Labour and the Tories wanted fully out if the EU and another party wanted to remain you wouldn't vote for the party that wants to remain? You don't half live to make a tall story.

Show me where I have said i have been criticised for calling out Cameron as you have stated it here. But yes me being a Labour supporter has been questioned several times as I detest what Bliar did and I don't think Corbyn should be leader. But go on then add Cameron as it makes your story look better.

So you now admit that I’m not remain in EU whatever? The EEA is not remaining in the EU.

No because general elections are not fought on a single issue and it’d be insane to vote for a party based on one single issue.

You were claiming it the other week, I’m not going to waste time looking for it

 

[Sick Boy]

It is. Happy to do £10 to charity if you like.

Edit: also I would t worry about Farage, the man’s a joke and wants to be a celeb not a leader. He’d run a mile if he accidentally won an election.

He reminds me of a real life Alan Partridge

 

[Astute]

It is. Happy to do £10 to charity if you like.

Edit: also I would t worry about Farage, the man’s a joke and wants to be a celeb not a leader. He’d run a mile if he accidentally won an election.

Happy to accept. Is this a £10 that if a GE is called and nothing is sorted?

I agree. He wouldn't have a clue on how to run anything. Politics would become more of a joke than they are now.

 

[Astute]

So you now admit that I’m not remain in EU whatever? The EEA is not remaining in the EU.

No because general elections are not fought on a single issue and it’d be insane to vote for a party based on one single issue.

You were claiming it the other week, I’m not going to waste time looking for it

EEA is the same rules more or less. And it us paying in billions a year. We would be tied to the EU in everything but name. The main difference is we would lose the small say we have now.

It is in the EU in just about every way but name.


Or do you know differently?

 

[Sick Boy]

EEA is the same rules more or less. And it us paying in billions a year. We would be tied to the EU in everything but name. The main difference is we would lose the small say we have now.

It is in the EU in just about every way but name.


Or do you know differently?

The country would be able to secure its own separate trade deals for starters.

But I agree that it is hardly ideal but what is the other solution and a way to find a compromise and unite people?

At the moment I can see a deadlock continuing. The EEA option was also put forward as a solution by Grendel, so it goes to show that it could be a position to take initially as workable for both sides before working out where to go from there.

 

[Captain Dart]

Only absolute nutters vote from someone other than the big two/three parties in FPTP.

You can tell this because all the Remainers voted Labour in 2017 despite Labour saying they’d honour the referendum.

So how did the Labour party come to power? After all they won no seats in the 1918 general election (the first for which universal sufferage applied) despite getting roughly 20% of the vote.

The fact is a new party can rise from nothing even in the current system but it takes time to get even a foothold but at some point it can break the barrier imposed by FPTP and become one of the biggest parties.

 

[Astute]

So you now admit that I’m not remain in EU whatever? The EEA is not remaining in the EU.

No because general elections are not fought on a single issue and it’d be insane to vote for a party based on one single issue.

You were claiming it the other week, I’m not going to waste time looking for it

You have one major problem with me. You seem to think I support anything I put on here if you are against it.

Yes it would be foolish to vote for a one trick pony. Because there is a slight chance they could win the whole bloody thing. But this is why several of us have been saying it would be dangerous to ignore the will of the people. This is from both sides if view on Brexit.

Nearly 54% of England voted leave. Remove London and it is even higher. There is no majority on remain or leave. The undecided carry the weight. That is unless you believe YouGov. But you don't believe YouGov on the Tory lead.

So how many are going to walk in wearing a blindfold? I made a fair bit on the vote going for Brexit at big odds. If this party gets going I will do the same on seats they get. It should be big odds again. Some areas had a big majority for leave. It could become much bigger than UKIP.

Then can you imagine parliament with this new party having seats. It would become an absolute nightmare. I hope I am wrong but I haven't been wrong on much so far.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes it would be foolish to vote for a one trick pony. Because there is a slight chance they could win the whole bloody thing. But this is why several of us have been saying it would be dangerous to ignore the will of the people. This is from both sides if view on Brexit.

As I too have said multiple times, I think it would unleash something very, very ugly.

I genuinely think the country will not recover for a long, long time, society has fragmented and I don't think there is going to be a solution any time soon.

 

[Astute]

The country would be able to secure its own separate trade deals for starters.

But I agree that it is hardly ideal but what is the other solution and a way to find a compromise and unite people?

At the moment I can see a deadlock continuing. The EEA option was also put forward as a solution by Grendel, so it goes to show that it could be a position to take initially as workable for both sides before working out where to go from there.

That is what I have been saying. Nothing is ideal. About half of the country will be unhappy at whatever happens.

Yes we could make our own trade deals. But then loads going to the EU would have to be checked. Just an extra 20 seconds to 2 minutes a load most of the time. But some would be much longer. This would cause the same queues that you said are a good reason to stay in the EU. Motorways could get blocked and all that.

There is no easy solution except to stay in the EU or sort out a proper deal. Everything else is a fudge and will cause problems of some sort. But if we remain that will leave millions of people who are angry.

 

[Astute]

As I too have said multiple times, I think it would unleash something very, very ugly.

I genuinely think the country will not recover for a long, long time, society has fragmented and I don't think there is going to be a solution any time soon.

At last we agree on something. You have always ignored when I have said similar and waited for a post you could have a go at.

This is the nightmare scenario I have been saying about. And nobody knows which way it will go.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

So how did the Labour party come to power?

Liberals agreeing not to stand in seats where they'd split the vote against Conservatives

 

[Sick Boy]

At last we agree on something. You have always ignored when I have said similar and waited for a post you could have a go at.

This is the nightmare scenario I have been saying about. And nobody knows which way it will go.

I think then we have both been guilty of that

 

[SIR ERNIE]

But I agree that it is hardly ideal but what is the other solution and a way to find a compromise and unite people?

'Leave' having won, why should the objective now be to 'unite the people'? Isn't that really just pandering to those who have never accepted the result? Shouldn't it be more about Remainers being grown up, accepting that we're due to leave on March 29th and making every possible preparation to make it a success?

 

[Sick Boy]

'Leave' having won, why should the objective now be to 'unite the people'? Isn't that really just pandering to those who have never accepted the result? Shouldn't it be more about Remainers being grown up, accepting that we're due to leave on March 29th and making every possible preparation to make it a success?

I would fully agree if the result had been far more decisive and allegations of 'dark money' had not come out. And the country is far from making every possible preparation to make it a success, the whole thing has been handled incredibly badly.

There is zero sense in persuing with the current strategy if it is going to make the country poorer, we should not persue Brexit no matter what, especially if we are not currently prepared and there is evidence it is going to make the UK worse off.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Hang on.

Woodcock has frequently been vocal against Corbyn. Yes an allegation was made. He 100% denies everything. There has been no evidence. But they didn't follow procedures. They were told that they had to follow procedures. They still refused to follow. John then resigned from the Labour party and went independent.

MP John Woodcock quits Labour amid disciplinary case

Yes I do know him personally. One of his children was in the same class of one of mine. He is working on a local project where my wife is on the committee. He actually cares about our community. He is also very generous. The last sports day I was at was very hot. He got permission off the head to let an ice cream van onto the school field and he bought every child an ice cream. You should have seen the queue.

I know this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s alleged to sexually harassed a former colleague. The Labour Party has a duty to investigate that, whether or not he is a critic of Corbyn or not. Frankly, Woodcock has claimed an investigation would ‘rigged’ but there’s no evidence of that. It’s convenient that because he’s resigned the Labour Party whip, he doesn’t have to face this investigation. Doesn’t exactly scream of innocence and he hasn’t pushed for an independent enquiry like he said he would. The bottom line is this: Corbyn nor his policies specifically made Woodcock leave the Labour Party. He left to avoid a Party investigation into his conduct, funnily enough, because he’s no longer a member of the party, he can’t be sanctioned.

It sounds as if you’re a bit too close to this to be fully objective as you seem to know and respect this man. But, you were pretty quick to assume the guilt of John Bercow, pretty ironic.

 

[Astute]

I know this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s alleged to sexually harassed a former colleague. The Labour Party has a duty to investigate that, whether or not he is a critic of Corbyn or not. Frankly, Woodcock has claimed an investigation would ‘rigged’ but there’s no evidence of that. It’s convenient that because he’s resigned the Labour Party whip, he doesn’t have to face this investigation. Doesn’t exactly scream of innocence and he hasn’t pushed for an independent enquiry like he said he would. The bottom line is this: Corbyn nor his policies specifically made Woodcock leave the Labour Party. He left to avoid a Party investigation into his conduct, funnily enough, because he’s no longer a member of the party, he can’t be sanctioned.

It sounds as if you’re a bit too close to this to be fully objective as you seem to know and respect this man. But, you were pretty quick to assume the guilt of John Bercow, pretty ironic.

Not true though is it.

He resigned from the Labour party and has referred himself to an independent process. It is what Labour refused him. They wanted to be judge and jury. They have wanted rid of him for years. He has campaigned against antisemitism in the Labour party for a long time. He has been very outspoken at what is wrong. And we all know plenty is wrong. But many want nothing done and those that try to be silenced.

Did you read the article properly and not through Labour party goggles?

This is one allegation. It was alleged by a party member. Bercow has had several over several years. They have been against those from all parties. There are clips on YouTube of him bullying people. He has gone beyond his job. He said he would not go for re-election to stop it going any more forward. Now he has gone back on his word.

But of course both are the same.......

 

[martcov]

1, Your.posts are all about remaining in the EU whatever and having a go at anyone who doesn't do the same.e.

2, who said you voted for Lib Dems? So what are you making up this time?

My facts? It isn't me that constantly makes things up. You need a mirror to see who that is.

People who pull you on your leave biased statements are not necessarily pushing for remain at any cost, just pointing out where you are wrong.

 

[martcov]

I know this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s alleged to sexually harassed a former colleague. The Labour Party has a duty to investigate that, whether or not he is a critic of Corbyn or not. Frankly, Woodcock has claimed an investigation would ‘rigged’ but there’s no evidence of that. It’s convenient that because he’s resigned the Labour Party whip, he doesn’t have to face this investigation. Doesn’t exactly scream of innocence and he hasn’t pushed for an independent enquiry like he said he would. The bottom line is this: Corbyn nor his policies specifically made Woodcock leave the Labour Party. He left to avoid a Party investigation into his conduct, funnily enough, because he’s no longer a member of the party, he can’t be sanctioned.

It sounds as if you’re a bit too close to this to be fully objective as you seem to know and respect this man. But, you were pretty quick to assume the guilt of John Bercow, pretty ironic.

Bercow should buy more ice cream for kids.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Not true though is it.

He resigned from the Labour party and has referred himself to an independent process. It is what Labour refused him. They wanted to be judge and jury. They have wanted rid of him for years. He has campaigned against antisemitism in the Labour party for a long time. He has been very outspoken at what is wrong. And we all know plenty is wrong. But many want nothing done and those that try to be silenced.

Did you read the article properly and not through Labour party goggles?

This is one allegation. It was alleged by a party member. Bercow has had several over several years. They have been against those from all parties. There are clips on YouTube of him bullying people. He has gone beyond his job. He said he would not go for re-election to stop it going any more forward. Now he has gone back on his word.

But of course both are the same.......

You’re completely sweeping that allegation under the carpet. Had I not known who your MP was, you would’ve continued to have presented him as a good MP pushed out by Corbyn and his policies which is simply not true. Labour have dropped the investigation because they cannot sanction him if found guilty because he is no longer a member of the party. You cannot claim to be impartial in this debate because you clearly have close ties to this particular MP and you also clearly don’t like Corbyn. The Labour Party have claimed the process is the same for everyone, at this point, the day only ‘evidence’ that this isn’t the case is the words of your MP, which you’ve taken at face value. Funnily enough, I do also seem to recall you saying something earlier on in the thread along the lines of ‘whatever a politician says, it’s a good chance they’re lying’.

I don’t care enough about John Woodcock to be politically biased against him and he’ll probably end up being unseated at the next election. I do care, however, about you blatantly misrepresenting why he left the party. Rightly or wrongly, he resigned the whip so he couldn’t be sanctioned by the Labour Party.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Bercow should buy more ice cream for kids.

I love getting lectured on impartiality by someone who isn’t impartial themself. Everyone has their biases.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Is that a bet for nothing?

Don't know if I can afford that much

Nobody knows what will happen. But the racists will stay at UKIP as they have become a racist party. This new one will get the votes that left UKIP because of racism and that they got the result they wanted. But on top of this there are those absolutely pissed off that parliament are going to go against their wishes.

This isn't me saying it is what I want like some on here have alleged. It could be the worse thing that could happen. The thing is it could bring everyone around the table and sort this shite out more quickly. Get it sorted before this new party picks up momentum. And the EU certainly knows all about Farage. They won't want to risk it taking off either.

It has complicated an already complicated situation.

What would be this mysterious Brexit Party’s policy on defence, education, the NHS, the economy, the environment, housing, immigration and so on. Besides, UKIP is polling at 6% at the minute and new Brexit party splits that, or at best, finds another 6-7% elsewhere. They may influence the outcome of seats contested between Labour and Conservative (as they did in 2015) but will struggle to win any seats of their own. A single issue party will struggle to do better than UKIP in 2015 (12.6%).

 

[martcov]

'Leave' having won, why should the objective now be to 'unite the people'? Isn't that really just pandering to those who have never accepted the result? Shouldn't it be more about Remainers being grown up, accepting that we're due to leave on March 29th and making every possible preparation to make it a success?

You lost, get over it was the slogan of gleeful leavers having steered the country into the present mess. Do you honestly think that with the prospect of no deal, money and jobs starting to move out of the country and no benefits on the immediate horizon, that people are in the mood of pulling together with leavers?

 

[SIR ERNIE]

You lost, get over it was the slogan of gleeful leavers having steered the country into the present mess. Do you honestly think that with the prospect of no deal, money and jobs starting to move out of the country and no benefits on the immediate horizon, that people are in the mood of pulling together with leavers?

People like you, no.

 

[martcov]

So how did the Labour party come to power? After all they won no seats in the 1918 general election (the first for which universal sufferage applied) despite getting roughly 20% of the vote.

The fact is a new party can rise from nothing even in the current system but it takes time to get even a foothold but at some point it can break the barrier imposed by FPTP and become one of the parties.

A Farage party will have as much success as Farage himself under FPTP. He has the backing of the Brexit press, especially the Daily Express, but he is so toxic for „ normal“ voters, any party he is involved with won’t win any seats in U.K. elections.