Otis
Well-Known Member
Now that IS s tough one. No idea how you word it, but I don't think you can have too many options on the ballot paper, it would be too confusing.
Think I will leave that to the experts.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (231 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
Think I will leave that to the experts.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
The question should be the same as last time, after all Remainers have been telling us that people are allowed to change their minds.
If that’s the case, just ask the same question again, let's see if they have.
But the problem with that is that Leave would probably win, so they will need to prevent that by putting May’s shocking deal up against Remain. Job done.
You gotta laugh, stinks doesn’t it.
Otis
Well-Known Member
You can't just have leave/remain.
If it results in leave we are just back to where we are now.
Needs to be more specific.
tisza
Well-Known Member
Would have thought most of the 17.4m who voted to leave No deal assumed the 2 main parties would honour their commitment to respect the referendum and subsequent manifesto promises from 2017 election to work to deliver an acceptable leave deal.
None come out with any credit - No deal element for refusing to compromise, May running down the clock in an attempt to manipulate a deal through, may and Corbyn failing to properly try and see if they could find a consensus, Corbyn dithering then blowing with the wind on issues like 2nd referendums whilst going on about general elections, those that keep insisting EU will change their position if we wait long enough despite constant statements from EU for last 6 months that there was little wriggle room.
None come out with any credit - No deal element for refusing to compromise, May running down the clock in an attempt to manipulate a deal through, may and Corbyn failing to properly try and see if they could find a consensus, Corbyn dithering then blowing with the wind on issues like 2nd referendums whilst going on about general elections, those that keep insisting EU will change their position if we wait long enough despite constant statements from EU for last 6 months that there was little wriggle room.
tisza
Well-Known Member
problem is you go past leave or remain and try and qualify the questions then less likely to have a clear majority. (ie over 50%).
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Guess it depends how you do it. Implicitly leave = May's deal (or no deal) really, doesn't it? So you could have a straightforward yes or no - but I assume legally you'd have to incorporate that into the question.
Pretty much as if the EU say we can't have an extension, I'd reckon a leave vote would suddenly see a commons majority for May's deal as least worst option for just about everybody, bar ERG and DUP!
It wouldn’t be funny, but I don’t see how anyone could argue for a third referendum having had a vote on a known product of the negotiations.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I’ve got it
Do you want everything you want and none of what you don’t want?
Yes or no
That’s the reality of what was voted on before
Do you want the richest country in the world where we don’t have to work?
Yes or no
Do you want no immigration and the best free at point of need health service without paying salaries that people can’t live on?
Yes or no
Ffs it’s so infantile.
We can’t just bloody leave that’s the point. Anyone who said it would be easy and we wouldn’t have any negative consequences is a complete idiot
Anyone who thinks nothing needs changing and that the eu is working really well for all 28’countries is a complete idiot
Do you want everything you want and none of what you don’t want?
Yes or no
That’s the reality of what was voted on before
Do you want the richest country in the world where we don’t have to work?
Yes or no
Do you want no immigration and the best free at point of need health service without paying salaries that people can’t live on?
Yes or no
Ffs it’s so infantile.
We can’t just bloody leave that’s the point. Anyone who said it would be easy and we wouldn’t have any negative consequences is a complete idiot
Anyone who thinks nothing needs changing and that the eu is working really well for all 28’countries is a complete idiot
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
There is zero evidence that most of the 17.4M voted for no deal, none at all.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Do you seriously imagine that once the 2016 leave vote gets overturned, as it inevitably will, that'll be the end of it?
It's a certainty that the whole thing will start again but by then there'll be a leave majority of MPs and things will turn out differently.
tisza
Well-Known Member
sorry that was a typo. No Deal was part of a second sentence that wasn't completed
Would have thought most of the 17.4m who voted to leave assumed the 2 main parties would honour their commitment to respect the referendum and subsequent manifesto promises from 2017 election to work to deliver an acceptable leave deal.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Where do you get the 17.4 million majority from? You seem to forget the over 16 million who voted for remain.
What is an EU idealist? How do EU idealists steam roller things through?
It seems to be the ERG and DUP who would like steam roller May‘s deal by refusing to compromise. They are the idealists.
Remainers want a second referendum on the deal or remain. Hardly a steam roller. Leavers would be free to vote against remain.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Lol
sorry that was a typo. No Deal was part of a second sentence that wasn't completed
Would have thought most of the 17.4m who voted to leave assumed the 2 main parties would honour their commitment to respect the referendum and subsequent manifesto promises from 2017 election to work to deliver an acceptable leave deal.
How do you get an acceptable leave deal when leavers support/ want different versions of possible leave deals and half the country doesn’t want to leave anyway? Not possible.
I don’t think it will be the end of it whatever happens. A bit like this thread.
I don’t think there will be a majority of leave MPs either. But, if there were, I think they should put leave to parliament and not to a referendum.
Parliament would have to agree on what leave is and negotiate on what they have agreed. Do it in the right order. Have a plan and try to obtain that result in the negotiations. Not as May did by setting her own red lines without having had a vote on what the red lines should be.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Personally I’d like the PM to show some real leadership, scrap her red lines she didn’t need to draw in the first place, gain cross party/parliament consensus on what brexit will/should look like, go to Brussels with this, renegotiate on that basis not her red lines, bring it back to parliament and vote on that. If she had done that in the first place I doubt we would be where we are today. If she doesn’t do that what other choice is there other than give the decision of her deal to the people. Either way we’re looking at an extension of article 50.
Just to recap. Renegotiate based on parliamentary consensus not her red lines or put her red line agreement to the people.
Just to recap. Renegotiate based on parliamentary consensus not her red lines or put her red line agreement to the people.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
sorry that was a typo. No Deal was part of a second sentence that wasn't completed
Would have thought most of the 17.4m who voted to leave assumed the 2 main parties would honour their commitment to respect the referendum and subsequent manifesto promises from 2017 election to work to deliver an acceptable leave deal.
I am sure a lot of them also believed the leading leavers that the UK could continue to enjoy the beneficial aspects of the single market without being in it. Then again Farage also kept going on about the Norway option which would have meant staying the Single Market.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
tisza
Well-Known Member
That's what nobody explained at the time.
Have to accept at the time over half wanted to leave.
Don't think anybody foresaw how divisively the leave camp was going to be split. Let's be honest go through that process again and May would never have been elected to replace cameron anyway.
Opinion polls as to where it stands atm have to be taken with caution as pre-referendum remain was ahead and the last General election polls were not particularly accurate. It was the don't knows that swayed it. Enough of those atm that could push the result in either direction. As many "Brexit no deal supporters" as those "remain supporters until we can get a good deal"? Simple leave or remain polls are misleading as they lack sufficient detail
Let's face it the most damning polls atm are the ones about whether Parliament is doing a good job on this issue
Lot of people just tired of it atm due to lack of a clear direction and want it to go away. Harsh but true.
How do we get through a 2nd referendum campaign which can be clearly understood by all voters? Who is going to objectively simplify the 580 odd page deal that the EU are prepared to offer? Do most voters understand what a Norway deal even is?
Election not the answer as have to figure constituencies with strong feelings either away are going to replace candidates that went against the particular wishes of constituents - possibly increasing the ERG which no-one wants. Are parties really brave enough to deal with backlash from those who voted to leave bring ignored? Why isn't the one proper remain party LibDems picking up supporters?
To sum up: we’re up shit creek. Anyone got a paddle?
tisza
Well-Known Member
Can't help thinking Benn-Letwin amendment is about 3 years too later than it could have done
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I think you tacked in quite a few other dubious points in the process...but yes I am really not impressed with what he’s doing. Yet I don’t know who should take on the mantle as clearly most Labour MPs want a return to Tory-lite
IrishSkyBlue
Facebook User
Jesus your MPs are a bunch of clowns, they rejected every tabled idea in the commons, the eu wont negotiate a new deal so why extend article 50, only thing left is to leave on a hard exit dont know what else they can try get out all this flaffing about!
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Omg part XXVI
Eurocunts.
Eurocunts.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Considering the piss poor progress the Tory cunts have made in nearly 3 years, I don't think 4 is long enough
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Watching C4 news and Parliament are just detached from reality. Especially the government but not exclusively.
tisza
Well-Known Member
fiddling while Rome burns. Corbyn deluded if he thinks his alternative plan will be accepted by enough MPs and then through a public vote or by EU leaders.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Tell you what, but if this is a taste of things to come when we take back control, God help us!
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
BBC said:
What?!? Just, what?!?
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Don’t worry... Corbyn made him do it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Apparently even some government whips have voted today contrary to what they were instructed to whip MP’s to vote.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Yep. If this is a demonstration of taking back control then let’s hope brexit gets cancelled.
RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
There is/was so much spin from both sides before the vote that you can accuse all of them to spin the truth and pluck magic numbers from the air to sway people to their view point. But previous years of media hype and a discruntled pubilc, I would argue you can boil it down to three main factors that the 17.4M were most likely to be annoyed about:
- Immigration
- Spunking money to the EU
- Making our own laws
Thats the crux and I would imagine thats what all leavers would think thats what they were voting for. If those three bases are covered, most of that 17.4M aren't fussed about the details - leave that to the MPs to sort out.
tisza
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="RegTheDonk,
most of that 17.4M aren't fussed about the details - leave that to the MPs to sort out.[/QUOTE]
Actually this last bit should sum it up.
We vote Conservative because we want lower taxes. We understand the concept but aren't qualified to implement it. We expect the people we elected to sort it.
We vote Labour because we want a better NHS and fairer system. Again we understand the concepts but really aren't qualified to work out the details. Again that's why we voted for you so sort it out.
People voted Brexit because they assumed the people they normally vote for would deliver it for them.
most of that 17.4M aren't fussed about the details - leave that to the MPs to sort out.[/QUOTE]
Actually this last bit should sum it up.
We vote Conservative because we want lower taxes. We understand the concept but aren't qualified to implement it. We expect the people we elected to sort it.
We vote Labour because we want a better NHS and fairer system. Again we understand the concepts but really aren't qualified to work out the details. Again that's why we voted for you so sort it out.
People voted Brexit because they assumed the people they normally vote for would deliver it for them.
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