The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (46 Viewers)

[Astute]

There aren’t many religiously devoted to the EU but what’s quite clear is that (Mrs May’s) Brexit is shit and I would rather stay than have it.

What has surprised me more is the real venom some have towards the EU (yourself included), as some horribly oppressive entity that has caused more harm than decades of neoliberalism and austerity. Then there is this growing trend of blaming Labour for Cameron’s mistake. The background is that Britain has always been a bit self righteous, a bit xenophobic and very static in its thinking.

So maybe Brexit was inevitable, even though we were warned in 75 that this would be political as well as economic union. But I think Britain needs to look itself in the mirror more than Europe

I agree with all but the last paragraph. That is false. It was sold to the British public as a common market as it was called. An easier way to trade and not much more. The plan was always for the countries of Europe to unite but they were too scared to tell the truth.

 

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[Sick Boy]

I agree with all but the last paragraph. That is false. It was sold to the British public as a common market as it was called. An easier way to trade and not much more. The plan was always for the countries of Europe to unite but they were too scared to tell the truth.

The world is likely to merge into one government in the long long term future, so I wouldn’t worry

 

[Astute]

I think a way of resolving it could be to drop the backstop in exchange for a ‘UK only’ line at the airport where Merkel points and laughs

We will still be tied to the EU by the time it is all over. And the Tories are going to shaft Labour as they are the party that makes it look as though they want to keep to the will of the majority and Labour have come out with they want remain.

And remainers will be happy with the Tories as they kept the ties with the EU when the majority wanted us out.

Many people just read the headlines and can't be bothered or don't have the capability of understanding the details. And many will soon forget that it was the Tories who started the whole shitfest off.

 

[Astute]

The world is likely to merge into one government in the long long term future, so I wouldn’t worry

Does this mean that you disagree?

I knew an old Polish bloke many years ago. He lost nearly all of his family during the war. I was very surprised one day when he said Hitler had the right idea on uniting all countries. The problem was he went about it in the totally wrong way.

 

[Sick Boy]

We will still be tied to the EU by the time it is all over. And the Tories are going to shaft Labour as they are the party that makes it look as though they want to keep to the will of the majority and Labour have come out with they want remain.

And remainers will be happy with the Tories as they kept the ties with the EU when the majority wanted us out.

Many people just read the headlines and can't be bothered or don't have the capability of understanding the details. And many will soon forget that it was the Tories who started the whole shitfest off.

Disagree, especially as the Tories tried to focus the last GE so much on May’s vision of Brexit and look what happened then and it’s not like the original result 3 years ago was a landslide.

 

[tisza]

There aren’t many religiously devoted to the EU but what’s quite clear is that (Mrs May’s) Brexit is shit and I would rather stay than have it.

What has surprised me more is the real venom some have towards the EU (yourself included), as some horribly oppressive entity that has caused more harm than decades of neoliberalism and austerity. Then there is this growing trend of blaming Labour for Cameron’s mistake. The background is that Britain has always been a bit self righteous, a bit xenophobic and very static in its thinking.

So maybe Brexit was inevitable, even though we were warned in 75 that this would be political as well as economic union. But I think Britain needs to look itself in the mirror more than Europe

please show me any point where i've expressed my standpoint on Brexit. BTW bit of background married to a Hungarian, 2 daugthers (dual nationality), business interests in UK, Hungary, Czech republic and Slovakia. Resident in Hungary atm waiting to find out what the final outcome is. Oh maybe my real interest might be the politics of it all as a continuation of my Masters degree work from the University of Essex and having spent 12 months back in late 90s working in Brussels.

 

[Sick Boy]

Does this mean that you disagree?

I knew an old Polish bloke many years ago. He lost nearly all of his family during the war. I was very surprised one day when he said Hitler had the right idea on uniting all countries. The problem was he went about it in the totally wrong way.

Disagree with what?

Look over the course of history, we’ve had counties, cities, regions etc uniting, it’s inevitable that in say 500 years it’s going to move that way.

 

[Astute]

Disagree, especially as the Tories tried to focus the last GE so much on May’s vision of Brexit and look what happened then and it’s not like the original result 3 years ago was a landslide.

You are not the average person on the street. You are only interested in one thing. You look at anyone who has a different opinion to yourself as an enemy. Of course you will despise the Tories. But what about those who voted leave? What about those undecided? What about those still undecided? What about those who voted leave but think we should go with the will of the people and not the will of parliament?

But I have a feeling you won't consider any of this.

 

[Astute]

Disagree with what?

Look over the course of history, we’ve had counties, cities, regions etc uniting, it’s inevitable that in say 500 years it’s going to move that way.

Why did you make your first comment after quoting mine?

 

[Astute]

please show me any point where i've expressed my standpoint on Brexit. BTW bit of background married to a Hungarian, 2 daugthers (dual nationality), business interests in UK, Hungary, Czech republic and Slovakia. Resident in Hungary atm waiting to find out what the final outcome is. Oh maybe my real interest might be the politics of it all as a continuation of my Masters degree work from the University of Essex and having spent 12 months back in late 90s working in Brussels.

You should have noticed by now. You either agree with everything certain people on here say or you are anti EU and want Brexit to happen.

 

[Sick Boy]

You are not the average person on the street. You are only interested in one thing. You look at anyone who has a different opinion to yourself as an enemy. Of course you will despise the Tories. But what about those who voted leave? What about those undecided? What about those still undecided? What about those who voted leave but think we should go with the will of the people and not the will of parliament?

But I have a feeling you won't consider any of this.

Yet more nonsense and attributing views to people that they don’t hold.

 

[Astute]

Yet more nonsense and attributing views to people that they don’t hold.

They don't?

Shows how clueless you really are.

 

[martcov]

I know you are pro EU but that is a disgusting reference. What are you really trying to say Mart?

I am saying a lot of extreme right wing nut jobs support Trump and nationalism, and dislike multinationalsm and Muslims. I am not implying that if you like Trump you support right wing nut jobs.

 

[Sick Boy]

They don't?

Shows how clueless you really are.

I was talking about you attributing views to myself.

 

[Astute]

And here we go. May says agree with her deal or there will be a very long delay to Brexit if it happens at all.


May calls for 'honourable compromise' on Brexit


May deal=Tied to the EU after negotiations.

No May deal=Tied to the EU for years until negotiations. And the negotiations will jeep us tied to the EU.

 

[Astute]

I was talking about you attributing views to myself.

So what was wrong on what I said?

You don't have a clue what people's thoughts are that are not the same as yours. You refuse to listen to a word.

 

[Sick Boy]

So what was wrong on what I said?

You don't have a clue what people's thoughts are that are not the same as yours. You refuse to listen to a word.

Yet again, utter nonsense.

It’s strange how you seem to ignore other sides of the arguement that actually abuse people on this thread, yet seem to give them a free pass.

You’re so easy to see through.

Your claims at being neutral are bizarre, you’ve spent the 3 years complaining about the EU and challenging those who voted remain on near enough a daily basis while never challenging those who refuse to look at the remain side.

You’ve also switched sides multiple times, or have claimed to have done. You’ve also spent 3 years complaining about FoM and immigration, yet now seem to want to move you and your family to France under FoM rules, the word hypocrite comes to mind on that one.

I’ve also stated about the mass inequality in the Uk,especially from the Londoncentric government. Brexit has been a huge waste of time and money, this money would have been better used to improve the areas left behind, the notion that Brexit will do this is absurd

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

please show me any point where i've expressed my standpoint on Brexit. BTW bit of background married to a Hungarian, 2 daugthers (dual nationality), business interests in UK, Hungary, Czech republic and Slovakia. Resident in Hungary atm waiting to find out what the final outcome is. Oh maybe my real interest might be the politics of it all as a continuation of my Masters degree work from the University of Essex and having spent 12 months back in late 90s working in Brussels.

Point being? The original point was that Labour should be equally blamed for the current mess. Yet had the Tories taken steps to seriously plan for a Leave vote and agreed a negotiation strategy then we could actually be leaving with some respect intact.

We can play educational Top Trumps if you like but don’t see the relevance

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And here we go. May says agree with her deal or there will be a very long delay to Brexit if it happens at all.


May calls for 'honourable compromise' on Brexit


May deal=Tied to the EU after negotiations.

No May deal=Tied to the EU for years until negotiations. And the negotiations will jeep us tied to the EU.

Yes so the answer is quite clearly a May’s Brexit vs Remain legally binding referendum. If enough people still want Brexit it will happen with no wriggle room for MPs.

That has been the answer for months but Jezza is still wanking over a GE

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I agree with all but the last paragraph. That is false. It was sold to the British public as a common market as it was called. An easier way to trade and not much more. The plan was always for the countries of Europe to unite but they were too scared to tell the truth.

Disagree, Wilson in the 60s and Heath in the 70s referred to it as more than just economic union. On the other point the world has too many countries and people trying to be proud of what they haven’t done. Britain being quite a good example

 

[tisza]

Disagree, especially as the Tories tried to focus the last GE so much on May’s vision of Brexit and look what happened then and it’s not like the original result 3 years ago was a landslide.

Not sure Europe was the main issue (0bviously a major one) at last GE. People had accepted Brexit was happening and so looked at what else the parties were offering.Also there was the 1m Brexit voters who didn't vote - maybe they thought their job was done.
Obviously there was a large number of tory remainers that moved to Labour but the late switch to Labour was as much about an incompetent Tory campaign and weak manifesto on domestic issues such as social care (social care announcement saw biggest swing to Labour during campaign).

Reaction to austeriy just as important. Corbyn making all sorts of popular promises on austerity and spending (eg free University education big youth vote getter) which even after the numbers were queried still proved popular.
Probably also showed what a political idiot May is as she ignored advice from many people not to call the election. Or maybe just the actions of a remainer who was just trying to sabotage the process - reduced majority then running down the clock as she believed she could use the deadline to get her plan through.

Also the 2 terrorist incidents had an impact.

 

[Ashdown]

Theresa May, she just looks ill now, mentally and physically !

 

[martcov]

And here we go. May says agree with her deal or there will be a very long delay to Brexit if it happens at all.


May calls for 'honourable compromise' on Brexit


May deal=Tied to the EU after negotiations.

No May deal=Tied to the EU for years until negotiations. And the negotiations will jeep us tied to the EU.

The whole thing is joke. We have lost jobs, money, investment and influence because of Brexit. This is not what was promised. Give it back to the people and ask them what is the better option.. remain as we were, or one of your scenarios? Remain as we are is the obvious answer, but some people will choke on humble pie.

 

[Astute]

Yet again, utter nonsense.

It’s strange how you seem to ignore other sides of the arguement that actually abuse people on this thread, yet seem to give them a free pass.

You’re so easy to see through.

Abuse?

The vast majority of abuse on here comes from certain remain whatever posters on here. And you know very well that is the case. All you want to do is twist the truth and have a go at anyone who doesn't agree with what you say. And I am not even going to bother with the rest of the bullshit you have just come out with.

Or am I wrong and Mart has taken over your account on here?

 

[Astute]

Yes so the answer is quite clearly a May’s Brexit vs Remain legally binding referendum. If enough people still want Brexit it will happen with no wriggle room for MPs.

That has been the answer for months but Jezza is still wanking over a GE

Saying another referendum is the way to go is easy.

But as I have said since this people's vote rubbish started what would be on the voting paper? Leave or remain only?

Can you imagine the uproar if remain won by less than leave won by in the first one? What about if leave won again but with a majority this time of less than a million?

How about best of 3....Then best of 5.

More questions than 2?

What happens if there is no majority? Because the odds are there wouldn't be one.

 

[Astute]

Disagree, Wilson in the 60s and Heath in the 70s referred to it as more than just economic union. On the other point the world has too many countries and people trying to be proud of what they haven’t done. Britain being quite a good example

It isn't true though.

The UK was never truly part of the European Union

Here is a part of the article. You will find the same thing said all over.

Remainers conveniently forget that when Britain voted in 1975 to remain a member of the EEC — after joining in 1973 — the referendum was based on the lie that membership had no political implications. In fact, the EU’s founders, especially Jean Monnet, saw ever-deeper economic union as a way to forge ever-deeper political union. In 1986, Thatcher signed the Single European Act (which set the objective of establishing a single market), apparently believing that it was only an extension of free trade in goods to services, capital, and labour. But Britain’s semi-detached status was confirmed by the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, under which Thatcher’s successor, John Major, obtained (together with Denmark) an exemption from the requirement to join the euro. More obviously than anything preceding it, the single currency was a touchstone of willingness to proceed toward political union. After all, as the events of 2008-09 showed, a common currency without a common government cannot be made to work.

 

[Astute]

The whole thing is joke. We have lost jobs, money, investment and influence because of Brexit. This is not what was promised. Give it back to the people and ask them what is the better option.. remain as we were, or one of your scenarios? Remain as we are is the obvious answer, but some people will choke on humble pie.

Lost jobs? When was that because we have record employment. And each time you have tried to blame job losses on Brexit like JLR.....to which you then tried to deny there has always been another reason.

Yes Brexit isn't good. But that doesn't mean it is good to be untruthful to make it look worse. It isn't as though anyone has to either.

And don't worry can't see us leaving. If we do it would be under rules very close to the present.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Saying another referendum is the way to go is easy.

But as I have said since this people's vote rubbish started what would be on the voting paper? Leave or remain only?

Can you imagine the uproar if remain won by less than leave won by in the first one? What about if leave won again but with a majority this time of less than a million?

How about best of 3....Then best of 5.

More questions than 2?

What happens if there is no majority? Because the odds are there wouldn't be one.

We’re all past debating the ethics of a second referendum.

For or against another referendum, it’s becoming a political necessity to hold a new one. Parliament cannot pass a Brexit deal, the alternative to that is ‘No Deal’ which Parliament has also voted against. We’re running out of options because the only deal likely to pass Parliament is a Customs Union-aligned Brexit which will almost certainly make the Tories implode. The next step is an extension to Article 50, but that doesn’t change the position we’re in really.

Like or not, we’re probably heading to the ballot box on this issue again.

 

[tisza]

Yes so the answer is quite clearly a May’s Brexit vs Remain legally binding referendum. If enough people still want Brexit it will happen with no wriggle room for MPs.

That has been the answer for months but Jezza is still wanking over a GE

Can't be that simple. Corbyn has his own Brexit plan which seems to have support within his own ranks so that has to be an option. And Brexit No Deal has to be on the ballot (if Parliament's wishes can't override what people want) .
Also the debate over whether a referendum can be legally binding as would override basic UK principle of Parliamentary sovereignty.

 

[martcov]

Lost jobs? When was that because we have record employment. And each time you have tried to blame job losses on Brexit like JLR.....to which you then tried to deny there has always been another reason.

Yes Brexit isn't good. But that doesn't mean it is good to be untruthful to make it look worse. It isn't as though anyone has to either.

And don't worry can't see us leaving. If we do it would be under rules very close to the present.

If we leave with rules close to the present, but with no input on future rules, then that is also crap.

 

[Sick Boy]

Abuse?

The vast majority of abuse on here comes from certain remain whatever posters on here. And you know very well that is the case. All you want to do is twist the truth and have a go at anyone who doesn't agree with what you say. And I am not even going to bother with the rest of the bullshit you have just come out with.

Or am I wrong and Mart has taken over your account on here?

The only poster who has been shown to consistently twist what other posters say is you, as multiple people have pointed out now.

 

[martcov]

Lost jobs? When was that because we have record employment. And each time you have tried to blame job losses on Brexit like JLR.....to which you then tried to deny there has always been another reason.

Yes Brexit isn't good. But that doesn't mean it is good to be untruthful to make it look worse. It isn't as though anyone has to either.

And don't worry can't see us leaving. If we do it would be under rules very close to the present.

Brexit Job Loss Index: 217,869 Jobs Lost As Of 11 March 2019

 

[martcov]

It isn't true though.

The UK was never truly part of the European Union

Here is a part of the article. You will find the same thing said all over.

Remainers conveniently forget that when Britain voted in 1975 to remain a member of the EEC — after joining in 1973 — the referendum was based on the lie that membership had no political implications. In fact, the EU’s founders, especially Jean Monnet, saw ever-deeper economic union as a way to forge ever-deeper political union. In 1986, Thatcher signed the Single European Act (which set the objective of establishing a single market), apparently believing that it was only an extension of free trade in goods to services, capital, and labour. But Britain’s semi-detached status was confirmed by the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, under which Thatcher’s successor, John Major, obtained (together with Denmark) an exemption from the requirement to join the euro. More obviously than anything preceding it, the single currency was a touchstone of willingness to proceed toward political union. After all, as the events of 2008-09 showed, a common currency without a common government cannot be made to work.

Or a fiscal union with transfer payments. It doesn’t need a common government. You just added that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Can't be that simple. Corbyn has his own Brexit plan which seems to have support within his own ranks so that has to be an option. And Brexit No Deal has to be on the ballot (if Parliament's wishes can't override what people want) .
Also the debate over whether a referendum can be legally binding as would override basic UK principle of Parliamentary sovereignty.

I've put that to avoid it splitting the Leave vote, unless Brexiters can all agree on 'their' option instead. Corbyn's insistence on something else only works if the EU want to come back to the table-they don't and have elections on the horizon. Seems the simplest solution to me and if it came to a 'last chance' vote there could be no complaints from either side

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Saying another referendum is the way to go is easy.

But as I have said since this people's vote rubbish started what would be on the voting paper? Leave or remain only?

Can you imagine the uproar if remain won by less than leave won by in the first one? What about if leave won again but with a majority this time of less than a million?

How about best of 3....Then best of 5.

More questions than 2?

What happens if there is no majority? Because the odds are there wouldn't be one.

May's deal/other Leave option versus Remain, made legally binding to avoid a rerun. No excuses for not turning out to vote so no complaints if the margin is narrow-whatever wins is what Parliament goes with. There is talk of an Article 50 extension by years, we're all sick to death of this dragging out and a second, binding vote would be a straightforward way of going forward