The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (2 Viewers)

[Astute]

I was responding to leaving without a deal

I can’t see anything other than a no deal at 12/4 or an extension to article 50

Why a no deal?

Parliament doesn't want it. The EU doesn't want it. And unless we get another referendum it won't happen. And there wouldn't be another referendum that quickly.

 

[Astute]

Can someone explain to me why labours position is to vote down the withdrawal agreement as they want a customs union, yet one of the options to be negotiated during the transition period could be a customs union ? I’d imagine to ensure the backstop could be exited quickly this is a highly likely solution but why tie our hands before the negotiations even start ?

The whole thing is a farce. Too many people with too entrenched views not willing to budge

Corbyn wants a GE. Quite simple really.

 

[Ian1779]

Can someone explain to me why labours position is to vote down the withdrawal agreement as they want a customs union, yet one of the options to be negotiated during the transition period could be a customs union ? I’d imagine to ensure the backstop could be exited quickly this is a highly likely solution but why tie our hands before the negotiations even start ?

The whole thing is a farce. Too many people with too entrenched views not willing to budge

I think the Labour position has been made easier by the fact that May said she will go once her agreement was passed. You could in theory get a hard Brexiteer as the next PM... who could simply turn around and adapt it so it essentially became no-deal. They don’t want that to happen, it also may explain why there were only 4 Lab rebels.

 

[martcov]

My point is they’re at the extreme ends of the argument and don’t want to listen or accept anyone’s point of view from the opposite side of the argument

That is why they are the problem not part of the potential solution. O’Brien’s condescending, all voters who voted out are thick or were conned approach, only leads to further division. Why not accept some of the reasons why people voted that way and address their concerns ? His attitude and that of many of the political class is why we are in this mess in the first place !

I know what you mean. But in his case he does try to point out the facts. It is true that the leavers come out with some amazing things, which are not true and he does come across as condescending. But e.g. when a guy says he voted leave partly because 3 pinned plugs aren’t allowed in the EU.. whilst we are in the EU and have 3 pinned plugs.. it can be difficult not to be condescending, or at least to appear so.

 

[Astute]

I know what you mean. But in his case he does try to point out the facts. It is true that the leavers come out with some amazing things, which are not true and he does come across as condescending. But e.g. when a guy says he voted leave partly because 3 pinned plugs aren’t allowed in the EU.. whilst we are in the EU and have 3 pinned plugs.. it can be difficult not to be condescending, or at least to appear so.

I'm glad that everyone on the side of remain talks sense and only talks the truth......

 

[martcov]

Thanks for clarifying.

At least you can still agree with what I have been saying. Another referendum isn't going to settle things. There are still going to be millions unhappy whatever. And then it will still be to parliament to sort out the details. And who trusts them to be able to solve anything?

We are in a terrible position. If the country were split 70/30, we would be fine. Everyone would accept that.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Representative democracy. It’s their job

Working out well though isn’t it ?! It’s their job to try to find a sensible solution to this mess.

Also representing who ?

Ps Ive not heard why but Bercow wouldn’t allow a labour amendment suggesting MPs sign off trade agreement/relationship with the EU, which the government would’ve supported. A sensible amendment that may have brought us closer to a solution blocked.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Why a no deal?

Parliament doesn't want it. The EU doesn't want it. And unless we get another referendum it won't happen. And there wouldn't be another referendum that quickly.

No deal will happen on 12/4 if nothing is agreed

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Working out well though isn’t it ?! It’s their job to try to find a sensible solution to this mess.

Also representing who ?

Ps Ive not heard why but Bercow wouldn’t allow a labour amendment suggesting MPs sign off trade agreement/relationship with the EU, which the government would’ve supported. A sensible amendment that may have brought us closer to a solution blocked.

Us and we get to vote every 5 years

 

[Astute]

Working out well though isn’t it ?! It’s their job to try to find a sensible solution to this mess.

Also representing who ?

Ps Ive not heard why but Bercow wouldn’t allow a labour amendment suggesting MPs sign off trade agreement/relationship with the EU, which the government would’ve supported. A sensible amendment that may have brought us closer to a solution blocked.

Bercow wants remain and nothing else. He knows what has a chance of going through and what doesn't. And once something is voted in favour of it will be hard to stop it from happening.

 

[Astute]

No deal will happen on 12/4 if nothing is agreed

No deal won't happen.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No deal won't happen.

Do you have a crystal ball? What solutions do you think will happen when May keeps trying to get the same deal through? If I were the Eu I’d say ok enough is enough it’ll affect us but we have 27 countries you are just one and it will affect you more

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Can’t see an alternative.

Is there a way of those wanting to leave leaving and those wanting to remain remaining?

The reason the whole political system is deadlocked is that Brexit is a rather vague concept. In short, leaving the EU as a member is entirely different from leaving the European Economic Area, the Customs Union and Single Market. These fundamental differences made it pretty likely that we were going to need more than one referendum on Brexit. In 2015 I wrote an essay on Britain leaving the EU and one of the arguments put forward by academics and one I adopted myself was this idea of 'Neverendums' because of the distinction of leaving the EU and things like the EEA, CU and Single Market (also other things like Scottish Independence but this is irrelevant right now).

In hindsight, the real failing of this Brexit process is the lack of consensus between the major parties and the single person I would blame is Theresa May as she only really engaged the opposition to her deal at the 11th hour. Her strategy was to essentially blackmail the likes of Boris Johnson, Ken Clarke and the ERG with 'no deal' (for the Remainers in her party) and 'no Brexit' (for the Brexiteers). In fairness to her, it doesn't help that a lot of Brexiteers have hardened their stances or moved the goalposts on this as well. For example, the 'Norwegian model' was used by the likes of Nigel Farage as an example for Britain to follow (and frankly, not the end of the world) to then pushing for a harder 'no deal'.

Whether you support it or not, the best way to go about things now is to hold another GE and/or referendum on Brexit as nothing else is going to break this constitutional crisis we have.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And if it came back as leave without a deal?

Leave without a deal to get it over with has had the highest agree with in polls. I wouldn't be happy with it.

I thought you were a ‘will of the people’ kind of guy?

 

[Astute]

Do you have a crystal ball? What solutions do you think will happen when May keeps trying to get the same deal through? If I were the Eu I’d say ok enough is enough it’ll affect us but we have 27 countries you are just one and it will affect you more

As you know I have called it correctly so far. Like a couple of weeks ago when even the rags said it was either May deal or no deal.

It is down to parliament and the EU to decide. Hardly anyone in both wants a no deal. So an agreement will be made that will make sure it doesn't happen. I agree that it is a possibility. But that is all it is. Revoking article 50 is a possibility. But that doesn't mean that it is a big possibility. And many more in parliament and the EU would prefer to revoke article 50 than leave without a deal.

And why would the EU call an end to it all when they want and need us to remain?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I'm glad that everyone on the side of remain talks sense and only talks the truth......

I had to laugh this mornimg. Some lady on R5live saying she would vote differently if there was a 2nd referendum. Apparently she is a remainer...but didn't want the result to be overwhelmingly in favour of remaining...so she voted leave & was aghast when she woke & saw the result!
So that proves it concuclusively some that voted leave really didn't actually know what they were voting for, & although noisy obsessed remainers might argue the the remain faction obviously have their idiots as well! Lol

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Astute]

I thought you were a ‘will of the people’ kind of guy?

I have tried to explain but some don't want to listen.

Yes I am but it isn't what I want or what I think is best for us. And we need to do something to bring an end to this debacle. The May deal although not ideal and disliked by most would have been a way out with the least harm. But it is against what both sides want. Not in and not out.

 

[tisza]

He has a bullet proof vest and an escort. Doesn’t help against bombs though.

We had the armed escorts. But everyone has guns down there. Ready for when Russia invades again according to the locals.
Not going back soon.
Still not as bad as when we had to smuggled out of Serbia after a NATO bombing raid those SOBs are crazy and a real unhealthy prospective member of EU.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Us and we get to vote every 5 years

That’s the standard line Pete. My point being Im not sure they are representative of the public. Both main parties campaigned/stood on manestos yet a number of MPs across the house are openly working against what they contained

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

That’s the standard line Pete. My point being Im not sure they are representative of the public. Both main parties campaigned/stood on manestos yet a number of MPs across the house are openly working against what they contained

They stood on much more than brexit

 

[Astute]

They stood on much more than brexit

And we have found out what they are like because of Brexit if we already didn't know.

 

[martcov]

I'm glad that everyone on the side of remain talks sense and only talks the truth......

Luckily most do. Not all. A higher proportion than leavers though.

 

[martcov]

That’s the standard line Pete. My point being Im not sure they are representative of the public. Both main parties campaigned/stood on manestos yet a number of MPs across the house are openly working against what they contained

The Conservatives said they would get a deal within 2 years.

 

[Astute]

Luckily most do. Not all. A higher proportion than leavers though.

Is it right though? It doesn't make what has been said to be true just because you agree with them. Many on both sides have been talking shite trying to make a point. I know what has been said to myself and I am on the side of remain. I am not supposed to say anything that shows both sides to be as bad as each other. Brexit has brought out the worse in a lot of people.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The Conservatives said they would get a deal within 2 years.

To be fair they agreed the deal in the timeframe ! Just can’t get it through Parliament !

My point though was that MPs from all sides haven’t delivered (and I believe many never intended to) on their manifesto pledges regarding Brexit. At least some have now had the balls to leave their respective parties....although this really should’ve happened before the last general election

They’ve let the country down

 

[Astute]

The Conservatives said they would get a deal within 2 years.

The Tories lie. Just like most politicians. They say they will do one thing then frequently do the opposite.

They are supposed to stand for their constituents. But it hasn't happened.

 

[Ricketts]

The Tories lie. Just like most politicians. They say they will do one thing then frequently do the opposite.

They are supposed to stand for their constituents. But it hasn't happened.

If that's your critisism then I think you should save it for the people who have lied time and time again, with regard to respecting the result of the referendum. Same people who lied about scrapping student loans.

 

[martcov]

To be fair they agreed the deal in the timeframe ! Just can’t get it through Parliament !

My point though was that MPs from all sides haven’t delivered (and I believe many never intended to) on their manifesto pledges regarding Brexit. At least some have now had the balls to leave their respective parties....although this really should’ve happened before the last general election

They’ve let the country down

Or saved it through their incompetence depending on your point of view.

 

[dancers lance]

Bercow wants remain and nothing else. He knows what has a chance of going through and what doesn't. And once something is voted in favour of it will be hard to stop it from happening.

He's an odd little fellow Bercow, he (whilst saying he is impartial) has so many 'tells' that he just can't help but give the game away that he is anything but. I have already emailed the Oxford Dictionary to request the word 'smugnorant' be added to next years print in his honor. smugnorant.....adjective.....1. John Bercow.

 

[Astute]

If that's your critisism then I think you should save it for the people who have lied time and time again, with regard to respecting the result of the referendum. Same people who lied about scrapping student loans.

Most politicians lie like I said. Would you like to state that isn't true?

 

[dancers lance]

Or saved it through their incompetence depending on your point of view.

I'm of the opinion that they are all sneaky disingenuous little twats, using the cloak of incompetence to further personal, political agendas and we must put a stop to it by way of revolution.

 

[Deleted member 7943]

Liars , snakes and cowards .

 

[dancers lance]

Liars , snakes and cowards .

Liars, snakes and cowards but also a very odd looking bunch, a bit 'carnival sideshow' or League Of Gentlemen.

 

[clint van damme]

Liars , snakes and cowards .

At least half the politicians in that picture are nothing to do with us not leaving.

 

[Sick Boy]

Liars , snakes and cowards .

Hahaha yeah it’s always everyone else’s fault, why is it that leavers refuse to accept responsibility and have to blame others?

They said no one was talking about no deal and that the UK could enjoy the same benefits of the SM without being in it.

Oh yeah, and there were the Brexiteers as Brexit ministers with one thinking we could do trade deals with individual EU countries based on our needs and the other not understanding the importance of the Dover to Calais crossing.