The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (138 Viewers)

[dancers lance]

But then if we have a nice soft one (as it were!) then we stay tied to the EU, without any of the influence we have at present. At least at present we're one of the key nations who can influence direction. Leave in a soft way, and we let other nations influence our direction.

It seems to me soft or hard, all options make us worse off.

I agree, even as a leave voter I would rather we remain than have a soft brexit.

 

---

[Grendel]

Bulgaria only joined in what, 2007? I live and work in the Italy, so life isn’t too bad, the 26c weather today was lovely.

In eu polls more Italians than any other country - even the uk - despise the EU don’t they - and before you go on about the south - the majority of all of Italy believe their lives have worsened from being it haven’t they?

 

[Sick Boy]

In eu polls more Italians than any other country - even the uk - despise the EU don’t they - and before you go on about the south - the majority of all of Italy believe their lives have worsened from being it haven’t they?

A lot of them are resentful towards Germany and the Euro but I’ve only met one person who saw Brexit as a positive so far (and I live in a Lega stronghold). A lot of those who are not fans of the EU see the UK’s exit as extreme.

In reality there’s little admiration for what the UK is doing, in fact it’s usually relegated to one of the last news items.

 

[Grendel]

A lot of them are resentful towards Germany and the Euro but I’ve only met one person who saw Brexit as a positive so far (and I live in a Lega stronghold). A lot of those who are not fans of the EU see the UK’s exit as extreme.

In reality there’s little admiration for what the UK is doing, in fact it’s usually relegated to one of the last news items.

Do Italy still have per capita the biggest debt on the planet?

 

[Sick Boy]

Italy is a beautiful country, what do you do for a living SB (please don't say you won the lottery and spend your day's drinking rum from a coconut aboard a private yacht) I couldn't take it.

Haha unfortunately not, no! I work in digital marketing for a small-medium sized business that’s growing very rapidly and looking to expand more onto the international market, it’s hard work but very rewarding and a great quality of life.

 

[Sick Boy]

Do Italy still have per capita the biggest debt on the planet?

The state debt is insanely high per person but you wouldn’t think that when over here, personally I’d much rather live here than the UK.

 

[tisza]

The state debt is insanely high per person but you wouldn’t think that when over here, personally I’d much rather live here than the UK.

more to do with overall quality of life (whilst being employed) ?
I've enjoyed my time in Europe - Hungary in particular ( wife and 2 girls added bonus ). Still very much consider myself a Brit but one who has adapted.
Maybe if we do remain those that have been so vocal about it actually make the most of the opportunity rather than 2 weeks a year summer holidays. Personally feel many of those that have voted Remain have never really experienced Europe or what it offers - not as a political or economic entity but as a myriad of diverse countries offering wonderful experiences. For all the talk of European opportunities there are comparatively few of us living in the EU around 1.2m (even less working when you subtract the number of retirees in the likes of Spain & Portugal about 250k and number takes a big hit if you look at mainland Europe as 250k in Republic of ireland).In all the years of FOM (1992?) few of the young age groups who argue so passionately about it have actually taken up the education or employment opportunities. After 25 years UK still only behind Germany in % of eligible working population that work in other EU countries - around 1%.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

All 4 votes fail again. Bloody farce! 4th meaningful vote then tomorrow

 

[dancers lance]

And for the second time not one proposal for brexit can get a majority from MP's

 

[tisza]

What i find highly annoying is the number of votes cast. 650 MPs highest total votes cast for a single motion Brexit around 550. Enough absentees, abstainers to make a difference.
Even referendum vote didn't break 600 votes.

 

[Sick Boy]

more to do with overall quality of life (whilst being employed) ?
I've enjoyed my time in Europe - Hungary in particular ( wife and 2 girls added bonus ). Still very much consider myself a Brit but one who has adapted.
Maybe if we do remain those that have been so vocal about it actually make the most of the opportunity rather than 2 weeks a year summer holidays. Personally feel many of those that have voted Remain have never really experienced Europe or what it offers - not as a political or economic entity but as a myriad of diverse countries offering wonderful experiences. For all the talk of European opportunities there are comparatively few of us living in the EU around 1.2m (even less working when you subtract the number of retirees in the likes of Spain & Portugal about 250k and number takes a big hit if you look at mainland Europe as 250k in Republic of ireland).In all the years of FOM (1992?) few of the young age groups who argue so passionately about it have actually taken up the education or employment opportunities. After 25 years UK still only behind Germany in % of eligible working population that work in other EU countries - around 1%.

That’s the same for any country though, imagine living in Stockton or somewhere like that near Sunderland and being on the dole. I’d rather take my chances over here

I agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post, living and working in Europe and traveling around makes you realise what a wonderful, rich and varied continent it is. It’s a shame more people don’t make the effort to do it.

 

[fernandopartridge]

That’s the same for any country though, imagine living in Stockton or somewhere like that near Sunderland and being on the dole. I’d rather take my chances over here

I agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post, living and working in Europe and traveling around makes you realise what a wonderful, rich and varied continent it is. It’s a shame more people don’t make the effort to do it.

Britain has some of the most deprived places in Europe, it is sad how a very rich media has convinced everybody of the 5th richest nation shite. No, there is the 5th biggest concentration of wealth but it is not spread at all, to the extent that a significant proportion of people in employment require the taxpayer to subsidise wages.

 

[tisza]

So again we've seen Tactical voting as mps vote to block any but their own preferred option.
A lot seem to delusionallly believe their preference will become the default choice if they hold out long enough.
Boles thrown a strop as his option not picked and so jumping ship to Independent group.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

more to do with overall quality of life (whilst being employed) ?
I've enjoyed my time in Europe - Hungary in particular ( wife and 2 girls added bonus ). Still very much consider myself a Brit but one who has adapted.
Maybe if we do remain those that have been so vocal about it actually make the most of the opportunity rather than 2 weeks a year summer holidays. Personally feel many of those that have voted Remain have never really experienced Europe or what it offers - not as a political or economic entity but as a myriad of diverse countries offering wonderful experiences. For all the talk of European opportunities there are comparatively few of us living in the EU around 1.2m (even less working when you subtract the number of retirees in the likes of Spain & Portugal about 250k and number takes a big hit if you look at mainland Europe as 250k in Republic of ireland).In all the years of FOM (1992?) few of the young age groups who argue so passionately about it have actually taken up the education or employment opportunities. After 25 years UK still only behind Germany in % of eligible working population that work in other EU countries - around 1%.

Because it still involves leaving family behind and likely becoming fluent in another language, which historically has always been a weak point. I would live in Germany if I could but a) it wouldn’t just be me moving and b) while strong in the language I wouldn’t feel able to manage it every day. Never mind teach in it.

However on a science PhD most of my colleagues were there thanks to EU research grants as was my supervising professor. As a British student you were most certainly in the minority. Our universities depend heavily on such grants and researchers to continue to innovate and give us an edge in research and development. No surprise the scientific community backed Remain in the numbers they did.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So again we've seen Tactical voting as mps vote to block any but their own preferred option.
A lot seem to delusionallly believe their preference will become the default choice if they hold out long enough.
Boles thrown a strop as his option not picked and so jumping ship to Independent group.

Another who will deny his constituents their own meaningful vote on his employment

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The state debt is insanely high per person but you wouldn’t think that when over here, personally I’d much rather live here than the UK.

Doesn’t everyone just make love to mistresses rather than their job?

 

[Sick Boy]

Britain has some of the most deprived places in Europe, it is sad how a very rich media has convinced everybody of the 5th richest nation shite. No, there is the 5th biggest concentration of wealth but it is not spread at all, to the extent that a significant proportion of people in employment require the taxpayer to subsidise wages.

I completely agree, I was living down south in the UK but when travelling for the football the contrast was shocking, even upon reaching the Midlands (especially around Stoke), it was like a different country.

 

[dancers lance]

That’s the same for any country though, imagine living in Stockton or somewhere like that near Sunderland and being on the dole. I’d rather take my chances over here

I agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post, living and working in Europe and traveling around makes you realise what a wonderful, rich and varied continent it is. It’s a shame more people don’t make the effort to do it.

I lived in Sunderland for a few years in a place called Hendon, the most backward, racist, uneducated and vile cretins I have ever met.

 

[tisza]

Because it still involves leaving family behind and likely becoming fluent in another language, which historically has always been a weak point. I would live in Germany if I could but a) it wouldn’t just be me moving and b) while strong in the language I wouldn’t feel able to manage it every day. Never mind teach in it.

However on a science PhD most of my colleagues were there thanks to EU research grants as was my supervising professor. As a British student you were most certainly in the minority. Our universities depend heavily on such grants and researchers to continue to innovate and give us an edge in research and development. No surprise the scientific community backed Remain in the numbers they did.

My neighbour here teaches 2 terms at Bristol and 1 here in Budapest to PhD students. Some sort of maths - i could learn Chinese quicker than understand exactly what he teaches
Language education an area we've lagged behind for way too long. All the kids here have to pick English or German now. Want to be in a profession and at least 1 fluent 2nd language almost obligatory.
A lot of the lawyers I work with have English as well as German.
You can get by in most European cities without the language but can go a lot further with the local lingo.
Hungarian really difficult as almost unique. Picked up enough as 1st few years was out in the sticks and had no choice. No one in that village spoke English then. Maybe best couple of years I had here.

 

[dutchman]

And for the second time not one proposal for brexit can get a majority from MP's

Which was May's objective, to 'prove' that there is no alternatibve to HER deal so everyone may as well vote for it.

 

[Astute]

Which was May's objective, to 'prove' that there is no alternatibve to HER deal so everyone may as well vote for it.

Either that or run the clock down and get a remain verdict eventually. We have no idea what her cosy chats with the EU were about.

Can't think of many reasons why a remainer would be so pig headed pushing through something that hardly anyone wants.

The EU has constantly reminded us we can remain and they want us to. Leave voters have been derided. Then we get the small amount of time after taking leaving without a deal off the table to come out with a totally different plan or leave without a deal. If we have a totally different plan we can have a long extension.........

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Either that or run the clock down and get a remain verdict eventually. We have no idea what her cosy chats with the EU were about.

Can't think of many reasons why a remainer would be so pig headed pushing through something that hardly anyone wants.

The EU has constantly reminded us we can remain and they want us to. Leave voters have been derided. Then we get the small amount of time after taking leaving without a deal off the table to come out with a totally different plan or leave without a deal. If we have a totally different plan we can have a long extension.........

No deal leaving is the worst possible outcome so why would we want our representatives to do that?

 

[Sick Boy]

Either that or run the clock down and get a remain verdict eventually. We have no idea what her cosy chats with the EU were about.

Can't think of many reasons why a remainer would be so pig headed pushing through something that hardly anyone wants.

The EU has constantly reminded us we can remain and they want us to. Leave voters have been derided. Then we get the small amount of time after taking leaving without a deal off the table to come out with a totally different plan or leave without a deal. If we have a totally different plan we can have a long extension.........

...or the Brexiteer MPs misled the public with how powerful the UK was prior negotiations and didn’t bother to get properly prepared or understand the complexity of it at all. We had leading Brexiteers with power who didn’t even know how the EU worked!

 

[tisza]

...or the Brexiteer MPs misled the public with how powerful the UK was prior negotiations and didn’t bother to get properly prepared or understand the complexity of it at all. We had leading Brexiteers with power who didn’t even know how the EU worked!

It was obvious they weren't in an overly strong position to negotiate. Everyone had been told Cameron had failed to achieve much when he tried to renegotiate with EU before calling a referendum.
BTW he did have some success with limiting further political integration of EU, limiting benefits for new immigrants and a few other things Brexiteers want. Don't know if they are still on the table

 

[martcov]

In eu polls more Italians than any other country - even the uk - despise the EU don’t they - and before you go on about the south - the majority of all of Italy believe their lives have worsened from being it haven’t they?

They have momentary union. That is what people blame for a lot of Italy’s problems. They wanted that, and now they cannot get out of that without a lot of people losing the value of their life savings.

 

[clint van damme]

Surprise, surprise Common market 2.0 may have strings attached that labour may not like, These refer to state aid which would affect nationalisation plans and even the structure of the new National Investment bank.

Isn't the investment bank modelled on the German central bank, (can't remember the name but Mart will probably know)?

 

[Grendel]

...or the Brexiteer MPs misled the public with how powerful the UK was prior negotiations and didn’t bother to get properly prepared or understand the complexity of it at all. We had leading Brexiteers with power who didn’t even know how the EU worked!

No they didn’t - they negotiated to remain and whatever politicians say civil servants do all the ground work and the real strategy

 

[Grendel]

Isn't the investment bank modelled on the German central bank, (can't remember the name but Mart will probably know)?

The reason real socialists (not liberal dribblers like Blair, Starmer and the wretched Millibands) hate Europe is that it restricts market behaviours especially regarding nationalisation.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The reason real socialists (not liberal dribblers like Blair, Starmer and the wretched Millibands) hate Europe is that it restricts market behaviours especially regarding nationalisation.

Yep, incompatible with the treaty principles / 4 freedoms. That's why historically labour and the trade union movement were opposed to Europe.

 

[clint van damme]

The reason real socialists (not liberal dribblers like Blair, Starmer and the wretched Millibands) hate Europe is that it restricts market behaviours especially regarding nationalisation.

I appreciate that, but my question was how can it effect their plans for a central bank when other countries, (notably Germany), have them?

I realise Macca said affects the structure but how much different can it be?

 

[Astute]

No deal leaving is the worst possible outcome so why would we want our representatives to do that?

I don't know. When did I say that?

As you know I have been saying no May deal or no deal. You have come out with my reasoning on the no deal so sorry can't answer.

 

[Astute]

...or the Brexiteer MPs misled the public with how powerful the UK was prior negotiations and didn’t bother to get properly prepared or understand the complexity of it at all. We had leading Brexiteers with power who didn’t even know how the EU worked!

Or maybe they were as clueless then as they are now.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

USA saying they want to do new large trade deals with us...
Massive potential

 

[skybluetony176]

It was obvious they weren't in an overly strong position to negotiate. Everyone had been told Cameron had failed to achieve much when he tried to renegotiate with EU before calling a referendum.
BTW he did have some success with limiting further political integration of EU, limiting benefits for new immigrants and a few other things Brexiteers want. Don't know if they are still on the table

Seem to remember that they were declared off the table the day after the referendum.

 

[skybluetony176]

USA saying they want to do new large trade deals with us...
Massive potential

Massive potential to be bitch slapped into submission by Trump. As the EU negotiations have proved we are not in a strong negotiating position despite what the leave campaign promised.