The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (26 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Blimey international jet setter

Not so much these days but I’m well traveled enough cheers.

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

The irony here is that the mentality of your average brexiteer seems to be the same of Oswald Mosley and his black shirts. Ultimately that means you’ll be the ones that are promoting the atmosphere that allowed a Nazi Germany to happen. If you want to avoid the scenario you describe your best bet is to change your opinion to one nearer to the remain camp.

That irony is that it is certainly something you would like to think

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[SkyblueBazza]

Bazza maybe you can be the face of the Governments no deal advertising campaign. £100m being spent so you might make a few bob.

“Don’t worry, pay your bills with savings, use positive thinking and things will be ok in the end”.

Get in touch with Cummings, he may want the slogan for the next bus.


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And you can reason with all those e.g. builders & carpenters, & all those terror victims in the loyalist NI camp & all the victim's families from the UK mainland over the last 40yrs or so, then become the face of remain? Is that what you want?

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[SkyblueBazza]

There is a key difference in that it will be a suddens two change rather than business steadily adjusting over decades. Could be quite the shock.



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What you mean it is okay for the EU to leech off the UK then - as long as it is a very slow, almost imperceptible process?

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[SkyblueBazza]

Please show me the remainers who think the EU doesn’t need reform. Almost every remainer I’ve seen wants Remain and reform. The equivalent would be asking us to ditch the pound and join Shengen. Literally no one is suggesting that.

Literally the EU has been doing so on both counts since their conception

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[SkyblueBazza]

You only have to spend 2 minutes looking through social media at the FBPE crew especially to see people like this. Even some of the most ardent remain politicians have failed to talk about how we would pursue reform should we stay - the conversation ends at Revoke Article 50.

If these politicians want to demonstrate that remaining part of the EU is the right course of action, then they should at least demonstrate that they have reflected over the last 3 years as to why Leave won in the first place.

Maybe because UK leadership has mostly being trying to get reform for the last 30yrs with little or no success

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[SkyblueBazza]

you really do need to get out more.

Or use his time 'in' more wisely

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[SkyblueBazza]

Really? Where have I been on the Tommy Robinson thread defending his actions and words? Nowhere. All the ones who are over that thread defending him you’ll also find on here defending brexit at every turn and car crash.

Maybe not...but it was you that voted UKIP wasn't it?

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So you would just surrender would you? Fascinating insite into your mindset. Are you a descendent of Neville Chamberlain?

I see you avoided answering the question whether you leave your doors and windows open....

It's not surrendering, it's called being careful and preventing a problem before it occurs. Why would I potentially put myself/my family or my possessions in harms way unnecessarily? If they forced entry then it's a different ballgame - they'd be a threat and I'd treat them a such.

 

[Astute]

When we joined the EU it was the positive thinkers suggesting so. Less chance of war, greater competition through open markets resulting in bigger improvements, cooperation in science leading to advancements and in policing reducing crime. The 'moaning neg-heads' were those telling us to stay out because it'd be terrible for us.

So for you the moaning neg-heads were right.....

We joined the common market. We were told it was just for trade reasons. But they knew it was for much more but wouldn't dare tell us the truth.

What you have said here is nothing like the truth.

 

[Astute]

But since then we now have 2 entrenched positions of Ultra Hard Brexit and Ultra Remain. Both in my opinion are culpable for this shit storm we have now. Those that won’t accept any form of Brexit except nosediving off a cliff, and those that won’t acknowledge that the EU needs to reform at all, and that not all leavers are ignorant racists that were too stupid to know what they voted for.

Arrogance in both extremes is breathtaking.

Absolutely spot on.

The one thing that makes me laugh is when there is the admission that the EU needs to reform but we should stay in the EU without any other thoughts on the subject. Because the only reform that ever happens is those running the EU keep tightening their grip even more. All leaders of the countries in the EU continually call for reform. But it is never on the agenda. And even when those running the EU are caught out breaking the law, rules and regulations they just ignore everyone and carry on as usual. Yet those who are ultra remain just make excuses for them.

 

[Astute]

Please show me the remainers who think the EU doesn’t need reform. Almost every remainer I’ve seen wants Remain and reform. The equivalent would be asking us to ditch the pound and join Shengen. Literally no one is suggesting that.

So what is the plan on making it happen? The leaders of the countries in the EU constantly calling for reform hasn't worked. They get told they are looking into it. But the opposite always happens.

 

[Astute]

I was just correcting someone who insinuated I spent my time there drinking cheap wine and they brought up the Euros not me.

Your character assassination seems to be that I’m neither a alcoholic or binge drinker and I’m astute enough to watch the exchange rates and change my money when there’s a good rate safe in the knowledge that I’m going to need it at some point in the near future.

You brought up the Euro's.

You said you got your Euro's at the start of the year and was clever doing so as you got a much better exchange rate. But we all knew it was a lie because when you made your comment the exchange rate was about the same as the start of the year.

 

[djr8369]

What you mean it is okay for the EU to leech off the UK then - as long as it is a very slow, almost imperceptible process?

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No, I’m saying the process that you’re saying will happen as business adjusts that you’ve said happens anyway happens slowly in normal capitalism but as you’ve said yourself will happen quickly in a no deal scenario.

Nice attempt to try and twist things though.


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[djr8369]

And you can reason with all those e.g. builders & carpenters, & all those terror victims in the loyalist NI camp & all the victim's families from the UK mainland over the last 40yrs or so, then become the face of remain? Is that what you want?

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What on Earth are you talking about?


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[Ian1779]

Please post an example of someone saying unironically thag we should join the Euro and shengen. And not a random with 46 followers.

You’ll find no one more annoyed than me at Remains lacklustre campaign and lack of self reflection. But the fact remains revoke A50 isn’t an extreme position. It’s a request for the status quo.

The status quo IS the problem. It’s been shit for so many people for what? 40 years now? It’s far easier to vote for something perceived as ‘radical’ when the carrying on as normal means you have nothing to aspire to.

This is my point about the extreme remain position - it’s made no effort in 3 years to understand this.

 

[Sick Boy]

The status quo IS the problem. It’s been shit for so many people for what? 40 years now? It’s far easier to vote for something perceived as ‘radical’ when the carrying on as normal means you have nothing to aspire to.

This is my point about the extreme remain position - it’s made no effort in 3 years to understand this.

One positive of Brexit is that the government is not going to be able to blame the EU for its woes.

The most deprived areas of the country and its people are the last thing on the minds of the likes of Johnson, Patel, Rees Mogg etc

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The status quo IS the problem. It’s been shit for so many people for what? 40 years now? It’s far easier to vote for something perceived as ‘radical’ when the carrying on as normal means you have nothing to aspire to.

This is my point about the extreme remain position - it’s made no effort in 3 years to understand this.

I agree with the point overall. However the problem is also that the EU is the scapegoat for their problems - those same problems of people having shit lives existed before the EU and it will exist after because the system is set up that way. To benefit the few. This isn't giving THEM back control. It's giving it back to the privileged few in this country who've always looked to keep them down because it's in their best interests to do so.

The EU needs to be challenged and reformed, but the same needs to be said about our own system of governance.

 

[djr8369]

This is my point about the extreme remain position - it’s made no effort in 3 years to understand this.

I disagree. Plenty of people on the remain side have tried to argue that the EU isn’t to blame for many issues and indeed the kind of people advocating Brexit are but they’ve just been shouted down and smeared as elites.



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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We joined the common market. We were told it was just for trade reasons. But they knew it was for much more but wouldn't dare tell us the truth.

What you have said here is nothing like the truth.

I'm saying the arguments put forward at the time were those of positivity, opportunity and prosperity. What they actually got was quite different.

Just as it will be when we leave.

 

[Sick Boy]

I disagree. Plenty of people on the remain side have tried to argue that the EU isn’t to blame for many issues and indeed the kind of people advocating Brexit are but they’ve just been shouted down and smeared as elites.



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Yeah it’s unbelievable that you have the likes of de Pfeffel Johnson and Rees Mogg going on about the ‘elites’ and people fall for it.

 

[Astute]

I'm saying the arguments put forward at the time were those of positivity, opportunity and prosperity. What they actually got was quite different.

Just as it will be when we leave.

That is nothing like what you said.

 

[skybluetony176]

You brought up the Euro's.

You said you got your Euro's at the start of the year and was clever doing so as you got a much better exchange rate. But we all knew it was a lie because when you made your comment the exchange rate was about the same as the start of the year.

That was three weeks ago, the comments I replied to yesterday were made yesterday, I hadn’t mentioned it at all in the period in between.

The irony of you accusing me of lying with a lie. As I told you three weeks ago I never said at the start of the year I said earlier in the year. You’re now repeating your lie that I corrected you on 3 weeks ago. As I told you three weeks ago it was the end of April, which is indeed earlier in the year.

 

[Astute]

I disagree. Plenty of people on the remain side have tried to argue that the EU isn’t to blame for many issues and indeed the kind of people advocating Brexit are but they’ve just been shouted down and smeared as elites.



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I get shouted down for trying to look at both sides. Many think you should either be leave or remain.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

That is nothing like what you said.

At best it's nothing like what YOU THINK I said. Unless you're a mind-reader out of the two of us I ought to know what argument I was making better.

Less chance of war - positivity
Open markets - opportunity and prosperity
Increased co-operation on crime - positivity through reduced opportunities for criminal enterprise
Science - opportunity and positivity.

 

[Grendel]

I see you avoided answering the question whether you leave your doors and windows open....

It's not surrendering, it's called being careful and preventing a problem before it occurs. Why would I potentially put myself/my family or my possessions in harms way unnecessarily? If they forced entry then it's a different ballgame - they'd be a threat and I'd treat them a such.

We left the doors and windows open when we signed the treaty of surrender

I guess we should when considering the referendum just asked McDonnell to go and see his IRA mates and see if we should run one or not

 

[Ian1779]

I agree with the point overall. However the problem is also that the EU is the scapegoat for their problems - those same problems of people having shit lives existed before the EU and it will exist after because the system is set up that way. To benefit the few. This isn't giving THEM back control. It's giving it back to the privileged few in this country who've always looked to keep them down because it's in their best interests to do so.

The EU needs to be challenged and reformed, but the same needs to be said about our own system of governance.

I agree with this point - this is what I want to hear as a coherent argument from the side of remain.

I’ve always said that Labour had to go to their leavers and say to them if they changed their minds, how it would make changes to their lives so they knew things would be different.

 

[Sick Boy]

We left the doors and windows open when we signed the treaty of surrender

I guess we should when considering the referendum just asked McDonnell to go and see his IRA mates and see if we should run one or not

The current government is propped up by the DUP who also have some very questionable connections

 

[Grendel]

The current government is propped up by the DUP who also have some very questionable connections

The same DUP labour tried to prop up their government?

Not the point anyway - the notion we should consider the actions and potential actions of terrorists as s legitimate part of policy making is absurd

 

[Sick Boy]

The same DUP labour tried to prop up their government?

Not the point anyway - the notion we should consider the actions and potential actions of terrorists as s legitimate part of policy making is absurd

So you agree that it’s absurd the likes of the DUP have so influence as well? And that’s not even considering their archaic religious beliefs too.

 

[Grendel]

So you agree that it’s absurd the likes of the DUP have so influence as well? And that’s not even considering their archaic religious beliefs too.

They are elected MPs the Ulster unionists have propped up governments before - they have a vote in parliament its transparent and legitimate - the religious beliefs are completely irrelevant

 

[Sick Boy]

They are elected MPs the Ulster unionists have propped up governments before - they have a vote in parliament its transparent and legitimate - the religious beliefs are completely irrelevant

Yet their connection to paramilitaries are some how ok?

 

[Grendel]

Yet their connection to paramilitaries are some how ok?

I’m referring to the fact that under the constitution the MPs can sit in parliament - Sinn Fein have the same right but choose not to exercise that right

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We left the doors and windows open when we signed the treaty of surrender

I guess we should when considering the referendum just asked McDonnell to go and see his IRA mates and see if we should run one or not

Still not answered the question on whether you personally leave your doors and windows open on your own house have you.

And don't give me some crap about "well we have to since we have freedom of movement". Proportionally you're far more likely to be burgled by a Brit than a foreigner.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The same DUP labour tried to prop up their government?

Not the point anyway - the notion we should consider the actions and potential actions of terrorists as s legitimate part of policy making is absurd

We spend large amounts of our defence and intelligence budgets on identifying and preventing terrorism. Polciing and health have scenarios designed to deal with terrorist atrocities. Education have training to spot and report potential extremist behaviour and social care then have to try and reach out to those people. Govt buildings are surrounded by marksmen there to discourage and prevent terrorism.

Huge amounts of our policy making already considers the actions and potential actions of terrorists.