The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (52 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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Astute
Well-Known Member
Went onto farcebook last night as there was an update on how my kids are getting on. Next to it was the normal Brexit madness. But as I know the pair of them had a little read. This was halfway down. I am remain but fully agree with what was said. I have tried countless times to question what is going on here. But he has worded it much better than myself. The remain whatever didn't have a reply to it. But it will be twisted by others on here as they don't know the person with the 1st and 3rd post.
One thing I'm curious about Scott and you might be one of the few people sensible enough to answer It's been widely reported that one of the reasons a lot of people stuck to brexit is because the remainers chose to insult them calling them thick or racist rather than making any valid points, and this seems to still be the case, this post here for example basically suggests brexiteers are just sun/daily mail reading imbeciles and if you look objectively at most other remain material it's basically the same, insulting and abusive against brexiteers, no point being made just childish attacks and generally poor behaviour. So my question is what is this aiming to achieve? Is it a well reasoned argument? Does it make remainers look like they know what they're doing or does it make them look like toddlers? Maybe if for just a few seconds people could approach the issue like adults we'd get somewhere Just a thought
Matthew the intention is to ask people the review their sources and potentially look for others and examine the actual truth not the Murdock media empires bought and paid for propaganda tool! I understand that some may be insulted by me suggesting that they may have believed lies but it's not them that I blame, it's the people that sold them these lies and continue to do so whilst profiting from the chaos! I also like to think that barring a few sporadic posts similar to this I enter the discourse with facts and manners. These two are essential elements of a healthy debate!
But can't you see that's not what you're doing? Be objective and read it again. It's all in capitals and the tone basically reads as "if you don't agree with me you're an idiot" Even now you've said brexiteers need to look at other sources, that they were lied to and manipulated, as if the remain campaign has been a pillar of righteousness based on facts and truth rather than speculation and make believe. The whole thing smacks of a religious feud with people arguing over whose fairytale is true and that's never going to win anyone's mind over, just entrench them further. On top of this so much of what's been posted is hypocrisy (not saying you've posted this stuff) recently we've seen the suspension of parliament compared to Hitler, yet when the concept of repeated referenda was compared the same way it was laughed at by remainers despite both being factually accurate just each suiting a different agenda. Yesterday I saw remainers posting about Churchill, yet when brexiteers did this they were reminded of his views on slavery and belittled for how evil he suddenly was. There are more examples but these two recent ones explain my point enough. All im saying is that you're not going to change anyone's mind by insulting them or acting like petulant children, you might by using facts (not predictions and theories) but then the truth is neither side actually has any facts at all, not unless we've discovered time travel, in which case we can just go back and change our minds later anyway. Have a scroll through today's news feed and take an honest objective look at the remain posts you see, ask yourself how you'd feel if that post was aimed at you instead and you'll see what I mean
One thing I'm curious about Scott and you might be one of the few people sensible enough to answer It's been widely reported that one of the reasons a lot of people stuck to brexit is because the remainers chose to insult them calling them thick or racist rather than making any valid points, and this seems to still be the case, this post here for example basically suggests brexiteers are just sun/daily mail reading imbeciles and if you look objectively at most other remain material it's basically the same, insulting and abusive against brexiteers, no point being made just childish attacks and generally poor behaviour. So my question is what is this aiming to achieve? Is it a well reasoned argument? Does it make remainers look like they know what they're doing or does it make them look like toddlers? Maybe if for just a few seconds people could approach the issue like adults we'd get somewhere Just a thought
Matthew the intention is to ask people the review their sources and potentially look for others and examine the actual truth not the Murdock media empires bought and paid for propaganda tool! I understand that some may be insulted by me suggesting that they may have believed lies but it's not them that I blame, it's the people that sold them these lies and continue to do so whilst profiting from the chaos! I also like to think that barring a few sporadic posts similar to this I enter the discourse with facts and manners. These two are essential elements of a healthy debate!
But can't you see that's not what you're doing? Be objective and read it again. It's all in capitals and the tone basically reads as "if you don't agree with me you're an idiot" Even now you've said brexiteers need to look at other sources, that they were lied to and manipulated, as if the remain campaign has been a pillar of righteousness based on facts and truth rather than speculation and make believe. The whole thing smacks of a religious feud with people arguing over whose fairytale is true and that's never going to win anyone's mind over, just entrench them further. On top of this so much of what's been posted is hypocrisy (not saying you've posted this stuff) recently we've seen the suspension of parliament compared to Hitler, yet when the concept of repeated referenda was compared the same way it was laughed at by remainers despite both being factually accurate just each suiting a different agenda. Yesterday I saw remainers posting about Churchill, yet when brexiteers did this they were reminded of his views on slavery and belittled for how evil he suddenly was. There are more examples but these two recent ones explain my point enough. All im saying is that you're not going to change anyone's mind by insulting them or acting like petulant children, you might by using facts (not predictions and theories) but then the truth is neither side actually has any facts at all, not unless we've discovered time travel, in which case we can just go back and change our minds later anyway. Have a scroll through today's news feed and take an honest objective look at the remain posts you see, ask yourself how you'd feel if that post was aimed at you instead and you'll see what I mean
Astute
Well-Known Member
The problem is that the policies for the next 5 years don't mean a lot against what happens with Brexit. The policies don't always happen. But Brexit is the most important singke item for a lot of years.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
That’s very true and fair points but I really do think the arrogance displayed by UK ministers hasn’t helped and them not bothering to prepare properly and even lacking a basic understanding how the EU works.
It’s simply unforgivable.
A key thing from what you’ve said is the word compromise. This has been lacking from both sides and has enflamed the situation further. This has never happened and the country is now approaching no deal.
This is why I believe the EEA option would have been a fair compromise. It would have made the UK weaker in relation to the EU and without a voice but that is going to happen regardless now.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Yeah and Johnson did great yesterday hahaha
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Don’t worry, he’s having today what sales reps refer to as a comfort call. He’s visiting Scotland. He’ll have a good day today I’m sure.
FactCheck: Johnson on Scottish taxes
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Evo1883
Well-Known Member
True, but Labour need to persuade more voters than the tories. We both know that
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Johnson is all over the place, have you seen his police speech?
People spend a lot of time and effort to have a reasoned debate on here.
Yes, leavers have been accused of being stupid and racist but often when they’ve said stupid and racist things. Remainers are constantly called elites, traitors and cucks - yet they barely play the victim.
Try and be neutral and see both sides.
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Evo1883
Well-Known Member
I have, but with Labour only having 2 terms in the last 40 years its clear they have more to do... They don't help themselves
Astute
Well-Known Member
Those leavers and those who can see what is going on get accused of playing the victim for saying what is happening. Just like happens on here all the time.
I never play the victim. I have no need to. I would love someone to explain why I would be in favour of leaving when my wife and kids are now in France as are other members of my family. And I am planning to join them in just over 3 years 7 months.
All I want is the chance to have a debate without anyone insulting me in any way. But there is several on here that think doing exactly what I posted from Farcebook is the way to go.
There is no problem with disagreement on thoughts of the process. That is what debate is all about. We have had some last night and this morning. It is much better. But it won't be long before the misinformation and insults start again.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I talk about compromise and the EEA and get accused of being remain at all costs, which is not true whatsoever.
There are also insults from leavers to remainers on here, both sides are more than capable of dishing it out.
I think it’s a minority of remainers who are remain at all costs and most probably recognise that there needs to be a compromise.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I do in the main as well. Don't necessarily agree with his politics and ideals but he does seem to be the least partisan and does concede occasionally to the flaws of the right. On occasion they have Andy Zaltzman how can have his moments, even if he can be just a bit bizarre (and I expect him to start reeling off cricket stats).
Most of the rest I find quite preachy. Nish's humour tends to centre around race and if he were a white guy making such generic stereotypes of blacks/Asians he'd be decried as a racist. Plus his high pitch can be annoying.
Parrish, AHM and the like are the left equivalent of Boris and JRM - upper middle class upbringing that gives them a sense of superiority and I-know-better-than-you and talk in a condescending manner IMO. With Parrish I have wondered if it's some sort of ironic piss-take of male privilege but I think it is just a sense of superiority. Ironically she's the best mansplainer I've ever heard.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Cucks?
When you look at the darker sides of social media influenced by American politics.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I don’t mind Parris in this as she’s playing a character but anything live I’ve seen her do as herself I either just don’t get or it’s going over my head, probably the latter as I had to look up what mansplaining is.
Ellie Taylor is a very funny stand up IMO.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Nice to see the PM isn’t flogging a dead horse for a change PM moves political battleground to Scotland
Still can’t take the bull by the horns though and for the second day on the trot he’s trying to reduce policing numbers
Still can’t take the bull by the horns though and for the second day on the trot he’s trying to reduce policing numbers
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Meanwhile in other news the PM is outwitted again Opposition parties to refuse PM election request
That’s what happens when no one can take you at your word.
That’s what happens when no one can take you at your word.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Strange.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
If he has to stay in power it won't be long until his own party turn on him.
Astute
Well-Known Member
But two posts don't make up for your constant rants. They don't make up for everything you make up. They don't make up for the insults.
I have constantly answered questions from yourself. And what I mainly get back is you trying to make out that I have said something different. And when I ask you to point out where I have said what you allege you either ignore me, change the subject, insult me or continue to make more stuff up.
As I have said I am going to leave you to it. If I don't keep feeding you hopefully you will get bored then try and have a debate.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Opposition parties refusing opportunities of an election rarely do well with the electorate/ it’s an illogical strategy
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Haha when do I have constant rants? I’ve mentioned the EEA thing for over a year now.
I don’t think I’ve ever insulted you or other posters on this thread either, so stop making things up.
I once got called a mug for voicing my opinion but I didn’t see you have a go at the poster for insulting people.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
We shall see but Johnson won’t last long, he is well out of his depth, regardless of Brexit.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Started already according to Ken Clarke. Especially regarding Cummings.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
He's not even a member of the Conservatives, is he?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It was clearly a trap, some voters might not be smart enough to see it but some of the remaining Tory MP’s are clearly concerned about traditional Tory voters such as myself seeing straight through his gameplay and been driven into voting for the opposition. Michael Fallon has been widely quoted in the media today making that exact point. Another indicator that the party is turning on Boris.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Still waiting for Astute to be all over this.
The noises coming out of the Conservatives is that Cummings is the one pulling the strings and Boris is just his puppet.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The penny finally seems to have dropped. Boris has admitted in an interview this afternoon that he’s got to go to Brussels and get a deal to come out on the 31st of October.
Let’s see how this pans out.
Let’s see how this pans out.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Oh dear
'You should be in Brussels; you're in Morley'
Not sure how I missed this yesterday. Fair play to the bloke.
'You should be in Brussels; you're in Morley'
Not sure how I missed this yesterday. Fair play to the bloke.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Reheated May deal incoming.
Can he survive the VoNC that’ll come after or has he burned his bridges?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
To quote Ken Clarke: “Boris is a lot of fun, but I wouldn’t trust him to run a whelk stand”