The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (104 Viewers)

[djr8369]

You have told me a few times now that I am wrong on the subject. Now you say you are not sure.

Will leave it at that but you do join in with others having a go at me when I point out untruthful/wrong comments. Nothing unusual there.

I don’t believe I have ever previously mentioned it.

I don’t have a go at you, I disagree with you and provide evidence where possible. That is the sensible discussion you say you want.


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[Astute]

Because we are still EU members and still abide by the rules. We don’t know what the new rules are until we’ve decided how we withdraw.

Look, the EU may have overplayed Ireland, but to focus on that and ignore everything our side has balls up is ludicrous.

Hold on. We are not talking about rules in the future. We are talking about present rules.

Would you like to explain how it would be illegal for the UK and EU to talk trade whilst we still have a deal?

If not why are you jumping on my back yet again? All I want is a truthful debate.

 

[Astute]

I don’t believe I have ever previously mentioned it.

I don’t have a go at you, I disagree with you and provide evidence where possible. That is the sensible discussion you say you want.


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I didn't say this subject.

But the same as I said to Shmmeee. How could it be illegal to talk on a deal until we don't have a deal? If that was the case we couldn't leave the EU with a deal.......

 

[Grendel]

LIVE: 'Best way to honour murdered MP Jo Cox is to get Brexit done', says Boris Johnson

Whatever side you're on, surely you have to agree this is beyond shocking.

What’s shocking is the constant attempts by people to hold her up as a Joan of Arc figure to try and score points

The so called return to hold the government to account ended in a complete fiasco and was like fans at a West Ham Millwall game. An MP today has tweeted to a TV presenter he can go and fuck himself. A certain high profile MP recently said he wanted to decapitate the prime minister. The lovely Lib Dem’s has a closing anthem including the words Tony Blair can fuck off and die. Yet today Ms Swinson whose not yo my knowledge condemned this is squeaking today that her child has had death threats - humbug clearly is more provocative than decapitate

 

[djr8369]

I didn't say this subject.

But the same as I said to Shmmeee. How could it be illegal to talk on a deal until we don't have a deal? If that was the case we couldn't leave the EU with a deal.......

Yes, sometimes I disagree with you. Is that not ok?

We can’t leave with a trade deal hence the withdrawal agreement (different type of deal).


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[Astute]

How would an FTA help exactly? You’ve got exactly the same issue. The only thing that removes the need for a backstop is a customs union. Which we’ve said we don’t want a and isn’t an FTA.

We have said we want to leave the EU. We have said we want to remain in the EU. We have said we want to leave with a deal but would leave without a deal.

So how is this all going to end up? You make out as you know when you say there won't be a free trade agreement. That is it. You don't know.

To me it would be the best way forward. Leave the Ireland problem on the backburner. Start the negotiations kniwing that if we came to a trade agreement that meant there would still be a borderless Ireland all would be OK. Not spend another three years plus arguing over what the border would look like if there wasn't an agreement.

The pressure would then be on all sides ti compromise. A Swiss deal? Norway deal? Our own specific deal? Remain tied to the EU? Remain in the EU? Leave without a deal?

But no most very vocal remainers don't seem to even want us to talk trade deals. They seem to want us to be stuck in this rut as we are still in the EU whilst no ground is made.

 

[Astute]

Yes, sometimes I disagree with you. Is that not ok?

We can’t leave with a trade deal hence the withdrawal agreement (different type of deal).


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Explain one thing then.

If we can't leave with a deal why did the so called new law get passed that we can't leave without a deal?

Same questiin I asked you before. Try answering it.

 

[djr8369]

Explain one thing then.

If we can't leave with a deal why did the so called new law get passed that we can't leave without a deal?

Same questiin I asked you before. Try answering it.

You’re conflating a trade deal with a withdrawal agreement.

It’s not the same question you asked before. As you can see I’ve tried to answer your question as phrased and you trot out your usual line of “try answering a question for once” without responding to what’s been said.


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[SBAndy]

It is pretty appalling. They spout it as being a momentous issue but actually are wasting time debating the why's & wherefore's of what has already happened & could/should be put to bed for now. They need to crack on & sort things out. And I agree with what most think - ALL of them & indeed ALL of us would benefit the situation by choosing our words more carefully. Views across the spectrum are just so entrenched, it becomes easy to get frustrated at not being able to shift others' viewpoint. Perhaps more restraint & respect can stop the downward spiral?

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What they’re doing with regards Yellowhammer is proving that this government is being economical with the truth. Gove was asked repeatedly when the title had been changed from Base Case Scenario to Reasonable Worst Case Scenario and who had authorised it. He consistently didn’t answer the question.

For what it’s worth, I didn’t think the opposition applied pressure correctly and should have been on and on about this point, forcing him to answer. Occasionally pressure was let up by someone changing the line of argument.

 

[Astute]

You’re conflating a trade deal with a withdrawal agreement.

It’s not the same question you asked before. As you can see I’ve tried to answer your question as phrased and you trot out your usual line of “try answering a question for once” without responding to what’s been said.


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It is exactly what I said before. I have only mentioned a trade deal.

Same question as usual that you won't point out. Show where I said what you say I did.

The reason I have only mentioned the trade deal is that it is the biggest problem with Ireland. The trade deal is only a part of a withdrawl agreement. But it is a major part of it. Most probably the biggest part of it. The one that countless jobs throuout the EU depend on. What our future relationship with the EU relies on.

But I am still not talking about the withdrawl agreement. Just mentioning it as you want me to.

 

[djr8369]

It is exactly what I said before. I have only mentioned a trade deal.

Same question as usual that you won't point out. Show where I said what you say I did.

The reason I have only mentioned the trade deal is that it is the biggest problem with Ireland. The trade deal is only a part of a withdrawl agreement. But it is a major part of it. Most probably the biggest part of it. The one that countless jobs throuout the EU depend on. What our future relationship with the EU relies on.

But I am still not talking about the withdrawl agreement. Just mentioning it as you want me to.

I can barely decipher what you’re going on about here.

You asked how the law prevents a no deal if a full FTA can’t be negotiated until after leaving. The answer is they are different things. I don’t know how I can word it more simply for you.


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[SBAndy]

It is exactly what I said before. I have only mentioned a trade deal.

Same question as usual that you won't point out. Show where I said what you say I did.

The reason I have only mentioned the trade deal is that it is the biggest problem with Ireland. The trade deal is only a part of a withdrawl agreement. But it is a major part of it. Most probably the biggest part of it. The one that countless jobs throuout the EU depend on. What our future relationship with the EU relies on.

But I am still not talking about the withdrawl agreement. Just mentioning it as you want me to.

I do agree to an extent, but the problem is that is we end up leaving without a withdrawal deal (as seems to be the government’s favoured position) we have rather serious and rigorous upheaval to contend with in the short-to-medium term. There’s no guarantee that a trade deal wouldn’t take up to 10 years as seems to be the case with others. Would it not therefore make sense to make an orderly withdrawal and uphold our end of the agreement to allow for a trade deal to progress more seamlessly? In an ideal situation they would be negotiated in tandem but there’s no way of forcing the EU’s hand on this and from what I’ve read this is a drawn up order of progress.

Edit: to add to this, with us bordering part of the EU we would likely be signed to a Customs Union through that which doesn’t marry with US customs - again coming back to this government’s preferred ally (for a number of backwards reasons).

 

[djr8369]

Same questiin I asked you before. Try answering it.

And here is where you accused me of not answering your question even though I attempted to.

Why do you do this to me? Why do I have to quote your own words from minutes ago back to you? I don’t wish to be harsh in case you have some kind of issue but it’s a fairly regular occurrence and other posters have had the same issue with you.



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[skybluetony176]

And the fibs keep coming

Businesses deny Gove claims on no-deal preparation

 

[shmmeee]

It is pretty appalling. They spout it as being a momentous issue but actually are wasting time debating the why's & wherefore's of what has already happened & could/should be put to bed for now. They need to crack on & sort things out. And I agree with what most think - ALL of them & indeed ALL of us would benefit the situation by choosing our words more carefully. Views across the spectrum are just so entrenched, it becomes easy to get frustrated at not being able to shift others' viewpoint. Perhaps more restraint & respect can stop the downward spiral?

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In that spirit. Excellent post. I know my frustration gets the better of me from time to time (to time to time to time)

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

What’s the extent of our veto? Can’t we just threaten to spend the next few years vetoeing every EU idea unless they meet us half way?

 

[shmmeee]

What’s the extent of our veto? Can’t we just threaten to spend the next few years vetoeing every EU idea unless they meet us half way?

Aside from the damage that’d do to our international standing, it doesn’t help us know what we want. The issue has always been at our end. Until we know what we want, not much point using threats to get it

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Aside from the damage that’d do to our international standing, it doesn’t help us know what we want. The issue has always been at our end. Until we know what we want, not much point using threats to get it

I mean our international standing isn’t very high currently.

But I get your point. The best thing would be a general election asap. It would effectively be a referendum - Remain? Vote for Lib Dem’s - leave no deal - Tories, leave with whatever’s on offer - Labour

 

[djr8369]

What’s the extent of our veto? Can’t we just threaten to spend the next few years vetoeing every EU idea unless they meet us half way?

Part of the reason the EU has to protect itself is that we’ve already shown ourselves to be utterly untrustworthy.


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[shmmeee]

I mean our international standing isn’t very high currently.

But I get your point. The best thing would be a general election asap. It would effectively be a referendum - Remain? Vote for Lib Dem’s - leave no deal - Tories, leave with whatever’s on offer - Labour

I genuinely don’t think an election will solve it. Geographic issues, tactical voting, other issues mixed in, we are very likely to get a similar result to what we had in 2017.

That’s why I back a referendum, politicians can’t be trusted to put an end to it while their voting records are public and their constituencies are split.

Said it over and over than the current parliament could fix it with a run off vote instead of the series of yes/no votes they did that ended up with nothing having a majority. But then they’ve got to crystallise their views and piss off half their voters.

im biased but I like Labours position as the only one that promises an end to it using democratic means. I don’t think till go down well with the public cos everyone’s in their camps now, but given a free run it’s what I’d do. Though I’d maybe have a harder brexit option for those that don’t want any connection to the EU as that’s a valid strain of political thought.

 

[shmmeee]

Did I post this here already?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Did I post this here already?

View attachment 13104

Yet they still won't agree to an election

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

I genuinely don’t think an election will solve it. Geographic issues, tactical voting, other issues mixed in, we are very likely to get a similar result to what we had in 2017.

That’s why I back a referendum, politicians can’t be trusted to put an end to it while their voting records are public and their constituencies are split.

Said it over and over than the current parliament could fix it with a run off vote instead of the series of yes/no votes they did that ended up with nothing having a majority. But then they’ve got to crystallise their views and piss off half their voters.

im biased but I like Labours position as the only one that promises an end to it using democratic means. I don’t think till go down well with the public cos everyone’s in their camps now, but given a free run it’s what I’d do. Though I’d maybe have a harder brexit option for those that don’t want any connection to the EU as that’s a valid strain on political thought.

I mean my idea is simplistic - but why don’t they put the simple -

Leave - No Deal
Leave - with what’s on offer

The previous referendum is respected, and if it Goes pear-shaped the govt can just blame the “will of the people”

With remain on the ballot you’re just going to cause riots

 

[Astute]

I can barely decipher what you’re going on about here.

You asked how the law prevents a no deal if a full FTA can’t be negotiated until after leaving. The answer is they are different things. I don’t know how I can word it more simply for you.


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You are making things up now. Would you like ti point out where I said this?

And how about showing evidence on it being illegal for us to have trade talks with the EU when we already have a trade deal as you seem intent on winding me up on the subject.

 

[shmmeee]

I mean my idea is simplistic - but why don’t they put the simple -

Leave - No Deal
Leave - with what’s on offer

The previous referendum is respected, and if it Goes pear-shaped the govt can just blame the “will of the people”

With remain on the ballot you’re just going to cause riots

I know people that want Remain if we can’t hard Brexit (no deal isn’t actually an option, it doesn’t say what we negotiate afterwards) because CU/SM Brexit leaves us with all the problems and none of the benefits.

I know people that think Hard Brexit is mental and would rather Remain if CU/SM isn’t on offer.

I think it’s got to have Remain on the ballot. Leavers aren’t the only ones who can riot

 

[Astute]

I do agree to an extent, but the problem is that is we end up leaving without a withdrawal deal (as seems to be the government’s favoured position) we have rather serious and rigorous upheaval to contend with in the short-to-medium term. There’s no guarantee that a trade deal wouldn’t take up to 10 years as seems to be the case with others. Would it not therefore make sense to make an orderly withdrawal and uphold our end of the agreement to allow for a trade deal to progress more seamlessly? In an ideal situation they would be negotiated in tandem but there’s no way of forcing the EU’s hand on this and from what I’ve read this is a drawn up order of progress.

Edit: to add to this, with us bordering part of the EU we would likely be signed to a Customs Union through that which doesn’t marry with US customs - again coming back to this government’s preferred ally (for a number of backwards reasons).

I agree with your first point. But the problem is they can't get it through parliament. And one main reason is we could be stuck in no mans land for ten years or more. Not in, not out yet paying for the privilege and not being able to make trade deals anywhere else.

How can anyone say that is a good idea? That is why it would be hard to push through.

 

[shmmeee]

Yet they still won't agree to an election

Genuinely can’t tell if you’re trolling any more.

 

[Astute]

And here is where you accused me of not answering your question even though I attempted to.

Why do you do this to me? Why do I have to quote your own words from minutes ago back to you? I don’t wish to be harsh in case you have some kind of issue but it’s a fairly regular occurrence and other posters have had the same issue with you.



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I ask when I am accused of saying what I haven't. And as usual what I am supposed to have said can't be found.

I have two choices. Let people like yourself chat shit about me or point out you are chatting shit about me. This then makes the thread shit. But you know what you are doing as you have done it many times before.

Any more any will ignore you from now. Had enough of childish comments. You can find yourself another victim......unless you want to show what you say I have said.

 

[shmmeee]

I ask when I am accused of saying what I haven't. And as usual what I am supposed to have said can't be found.

I have two choices. Let people like yourself chat shit about me or point out you are chatting shit about me. This then makes the thread shit. But you know what you are doing as you have done it many times before.

Any more any will ignore you from now. Had enough of childish comments. You can find yourself another victim......unless you want to show what you say I have said.

I think everyone needs to assume people here are posting in good faith and mistakes and misunderstandings happen.



Obviously this doesn’t apply to Dom

 

[djr8369]

You are making things up now. Would you like ti point out where I said this?

And how about showing evidence on it being illegal for us to have trade talks with the EU when we already have a trade deal as you seem intent on winding me up on the subject.

Fuck me. I’ve rephrased your question to make it clearer so you can’t pick me up on the answer. The same answer applies to your original question.

I already said maybe I’m wrong on it being illegal. As I said I’m not going to research it now as I’m on holiday and whenever I show you evidence you just go quiet.


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[djr8369]

I ask when I am accused of saying what I haven't. And as usual what I am supposed to have said can't be found.

I have two choices. Let people like yourself chat shit about me or point out you are chatting shit about me. This then makes the thread shit. But you know what you are doing as you have done it many times before.

Any more any will ignore you from now. Had enough of childish comments. You can find yourself another victim......unless you want to show what you say I have said.

I literally just quoted it back to you!


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[skybluetony176]

I literally just quoted it back to you!


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Seriously. Don’t waste your time.

 

[shmmeee]

Jesus. Just heard Boris’ sister on R4, what’s the deal with them? She was very candid. Even said he might be pushing no deal so hard because of people who have shorted the pound pressuring him (as well as advice from Cummings and genuine belief as reasons for his actions)

 

[Astute]

I genuinely don’t think an election will solve it. Geographic issues, tactical voting, other issues mixed in, we are very likely to get a similar result to what we had in 2017.

That’s why I back a referendum, politicians can’t be trusted to put an end to it while their voting records are public and their constituencies are split.

Said it over and over than the current parliament could fix it with a run off vote instead of the series of yes/no votes they did that ended up with nothing having a majority. But then they’ve got to crystallise their views and piss off half their voters.

im biased but I like Labours position as the only one that promises an end to it using democratic means. I don’t think till go down well with the public cos everyone’s in their camps now, but given a free run it’s what I’d do. Though I’d maybe have a harder brexit option for those that don’t want any connection to the EU as that’s a valid strain of political thought.

The Lib Dems are offering a democratic system.

Something on the lines of agree a deal with the EU then vote against it. When the deal gets voted down hold a referendum. But if they got a majority government....can anyone see that happening...... they would revoke article 50.

 

[shmmeee]

The Lib Dems are offering a democratic system.

Something on the lines of agree a deal with the EU then vote against it. When the deal gets voted down hold a referendum. But if they got a majority government....can anyone see that happening...... they would revoke article 50.

Is that a recent change? Last I heard their conference had voted in the policy of revoke A50.