The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (38 Viewers)

[Astute]

Fuck me. I’ve rephrased your question to make it clearer so you can’t pick me up on the answer. The same answer applies to your original question.

I already said maybe I’m wrong on it being illegal. As I said I’m not going to research it now as I’m on holiday and whenever I show you evidence you just go quiet.


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Correct. Rephrased it to make it look like I said something else.

Have fun with Tony. Had enough of your crap. You are as bad as him. Bye.

 

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[djr8369]

Correct. Rephrased it to make it look like I said something else.

Have fun with Tony. Had enough of your crap. You are as bad as him. Bye.

No I rephrased it to make it clear what I was answering. Feel free to phrase it how you wish and I’ll tell you the answer. Always try and engage with you despite your general rudeness.


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[Astute]

Is that a recent change? Last I heard their conference had voted in the policy of revoke A50.

Yes the newest policy is revoke article 50. But they would need a majority government. And they won't get one. So it would be down to another referendum.
Lib Dems pledge to revoke Brexit without referendum

 

[djr8369]

Is that a recent change? Last I heard their conference had voted in the policy of revoke A50.

Yeah, exactly.


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[Grendel]

Jesus. Just heard Boris’ sister on R4, what’s the deal with them? She was very candid. Even said he might be pushing no deal so hard because of people who have shorted the pound pressuring him (as well as advice from Cummings and genuine belief as reasons for his actions)

She’s s Liberal Democrat

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

I think everyone needs to assume people here are posting in good faith and mistakes and misunderstandings happen.



Obviously this doesn’t apply to Dom

Haha didn't realise a comedian was on the thread:finger:

 

[skybluetony176]

Jesus. Just heard Boris’ sister on R4, what’s the deal with them? She was very candid. Even said he might be pushing no deal so hard because of people who have shorted the pound pressuring him (as well as advice from Cummings and genuine belief as reasons for his actions)

Not the first time that’s been suggested although probably not from so close to home though. Either way I thought it’s been pretty obvious for a while.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I mean our international standing isn’t very high currently.

But I get your point. The best thing would be a general election asap. It would effectively be a referendum - Remain? Vote for Lib Dem’s - leave no deal - Tories, leave with whatever’s on offer - Labour

If you're treating a GE as a referendum (which you really shouldn't) then just have the second referendum without the chance for it to be argued about it being a multi-issue election and therefore not necessarily representative of public perception of Brexit.

If you treat a GE as a referendum-by-proxy you're encouraging the hard-liners on each side to get some extreme stuff in their manifestos. Labour could go a remain position but also put in calls to nationalise everything, get rid of the nuclear deterrent and massively reduce the armed forces while whacking taxes up. Similarly, Tories could say they'd privatise the NHS, scrap benefits entirely, scrap environmental protection and give massive tax breaks to the rich. But if it's all made about Brexit you'd have to take those on the chin.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Good to see Parliament is utilising it’s non prorogued time wisely !

Not sure if anyone caught Gove’s Q&A about yellowhammer (the name still amuses me for some reason) but from the bits I saw I thought it was a sensible, considered and rightly challenging.......glad only *85 MPs bothered to attend when this is what they are apparently most concerned about. The rest of the day was point scoring and shouting from what I saw.

*Bercow commented on number, I didn’t attempt to count !

Watching that I was wondering can we have a vote of no confidence in parliament as a whole because from yesterday I was wondering if it's actually fit for purpose. That whole thing was a shambolic embarrassment and if you had a bunch of 6 year olds behaving like that they'd be excluded from school.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

In that spirit. Excellent post. I know my frustration gets the better of me from time to time (to time to time to time)

Yes, I made a point of thinking of some of my own posts made in haste &/or frustration. We are all guilty of it.

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[SBAndy]

Watching that I was wondering can we have a vote of no confidence in parliament as a whole because from yesterday I was wondering if it's actually fit for purpose. That whole thing was a shambolic embarrassment and if you had a bunch of 6 year olds behaving like that they'd be excluded from school.

It’s been that way for years. Corbyn actually tried to change tact when he initially took up leadership. He changed that as he was getting torn to pieces every week by Theresa May.

 

[Grendel]

If you're treating a GE as a referendum (which you really shouldn't) then just have the second referendum without the chance for it to be argued about it being a multi-issue election and therefore not necessarily representative of public perception of Brexit.

If you treat a GE as a referendum-by-proxy you're encouraging the hard-liners on each side to get some extreme stuff in their manifestos. Labour could go a remain position but also put in calls to nationalise everything, get rid of the nuclear deterrent and massively reduce the armed forces while whacking taxes up. Similarly, Tories could say they'd privatise the NHS, scrap benefits entirely, scrap environmental protection and give massive tax breaks to the rich. But if it's all made about Brexit you'd have to take those on the chin.

Regardless of if there is a referendum or not do you really think the next election will not be about Brexit. The Tories would request again to revoke article 50

 

[shmmeee]

Haha didn't realise a comedian was on the thread:finger:

bants m8

 

[shmmeee]

Yes the newest policy is revoke article 50. But they would need a majority government. And they won't get one. So it would be down to another referendum.
Lib Dems pledge to revoke Brexit without referendum

If they don’t get a majority it won’t be their policy that’s enacted, it’ll be Labours (or Tories but obvs they aren’t going into partnership).

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes, I made a point of thinking of some of my own posts made in haste &/or frustration. We are all guilty of it.

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Very true!

 

[shmmeee]

Watching that I was wondering can we have a vote of no confidence in parliament as a whole because from yesterday I was wondering if it's actually fit for purpose. That whole thing was a shambolic embarrassment and if you had a bunch of 6 year olds behaving like that they'd be excluded from school.

Of course it’s fit for purpose. The commons isn’t where the work is done, it’s mostly show. PMQs especially. If you watch the select committees you see in depth, sensible questioning backed by evidence. I highly recommend it.

 

[Grendel]

If they don’t get a majority it won’t be their policy that’s enacted, it’ll be Labours (or Tories but obvs they aren’t going into partnership).

The Lib Dem’s have ruled out any pact with labour while Corbyn is at the helm

 

[martcov]

We have said we want to leave the EU. We have said we want to remain in the EU. We have said we want to leave with a deal but would leave without a deal.

So how is this all going to end up? You make out as you know when you say there won't be a free trade agreement. That is it. You don't know.

To me it would be the best way forward. Leave the Ireland problem on the backburner. Start the negotiations kniwing that if we came to a trade agreement that meant there would still be a borderless Ireland all would be OK. Not spend another three years plus arguing over what the border would look like if there wasn't an agreement.

The pressure would then be on all sides ti compromise. A Swiss deal? Norway deal? Our own specific deal? Remain tied to the EU? Remain in the EU? Leave without a deal?

But no most very vocal remainers don't seem to even want us to talk trade deals. They seem to want us to be stuck in this rut as we are still in the EU whilst no ground is made.

Wrong. I would be happy enough if there was a NI only backstop, my rights and EU citizens rights in the UK were put into law, and the money ratified. We could then move forward, get a deal and then have a vote on the deal v remain. Is the deal better than remain?

 

[shmmeee]

We have said we want to leave the EU. We have said we want to remain in the EU. We have said we want to leave with a deal but would leave without a deal.

So how is this all going to end up? You make out as you know when you say there won't be a free trade agreement. That is it. You don't know.

To me it would be the best way forward. Leave the Ireland problem on the backburner. Start the negotiations kniwing that if we came to a trade agreement that meant there would still be a borderless Ireland all would be OK. Not spend another three years plus arguing over what the border would look like if there wasn't an agreement.

You’ve literally described the backstop there.

The pressure would then be on all sides ti compromise. A Swiss deal? Norway deal? Our own specific deal? Remain tied to the EU? Remain in the EU? Leave without a deal?

But no most very vocal remainers don't seem to even want us to talk trade deals. They seem to want us to be stuck in this rut as we are still in the EU whilst no ground is made.

I think if you go back over time you’ll see it was the ERG and the no dealers who dug their heels in first hoping that by sabotaging the negotiations we’d have to leave without a deal.

Now just when it looked like the Labour dealers would vote for anything put in front of them Johnson has gone full bore mental insulting their dead mate and ensuring none of them will. Because he doesn’t want a deal because the Faragistas would eat him alive.

While there’s been a noisy FBPE Revoke A50 bunch from the beginning, they’ve not actually been in a position to do anything and it’s been the hard Brexiters who have kept us in the rut.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Of course it’s fit for purpose. The commons isn’t where the work is done, it’s mostly show. PMQs especially. If you watch the select committees you see in depth, sensible questioning backed by evidence. I highly recommend it.

I'm aware the main work is done behind the scenes. But it feels like more and more the Commons main chamber has become akin to a reality TV programme, with 'personalities' posturing to get air time. So let's do away with that nonsense and see some actual proper work being done instead.

 

[shmmeee]

I'm aware the main work is done behind the scenes. But it feels like more and more the Commons main chamber has become akin to a reality TV programme, with 'personalities' posturing to get air time. So let's do away with that nonsense and see some actual proper work being done instead.

Blame social media for that. All you need now is a ten second clip of you being angry or firing off a zinger that you’re SM team can edit into something viral.

I’m supremely conservative when it comes to constitutional reform though, I wouldn’t even abolish the HoL.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Regardless of if there is a referendum or not do you really think the next election will not be about Brexit. The Tories would request again to revoke article 50

Of course it would be IF there was no second referendum, which is why it has to be done first. As I pointed out either party could add all sorts of crap hidden into manifestos knowing that all that what will largely matter will be their Brexit position.

Do you want to nationalise industry? Well tough, if you want to remain you're going to have to vote for it. Want to see the NHS sold off and tax breaks for the rich? Well tough, if you want to leave you're going to have to vote for it.

Not a sensible way to have a general election when there is a perfectly logical way of dealing with the single issue instead.

 

[shmmeee]

I do find it funny that we currently have each side calling the other chicken for not wanting a public vote.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Blame social media for that. All you need now is a ten second clip of you being angry or firing off a zinger that you’re SM team can edit into something viral.

I’m supremely conservative when it comes to constitutional reform though, I wouldn’t even abolish the HoL.

Social media has made it worse, but I think it's basically all media. Since they've had the opportunity to be on TV etc it's a load of posturing and doing stuff to get your name mentioned or a clip of you on the news. Basically like reality tv contestants. But then do I want all this stuff to happen behind closed doors? No.

I'm personally all for HoL reform. Think I've said on here before that you could have the lower house retained using FPTP and with named constituency MP's on the ballot, the upper house PR given vote % and members chosen by the parties. Both houses elected. Still only needs one election. Loads of other stuff I'd happily change and streamline. All the pomp and circumstance is there purely for historic reasons and not because it serves a purpose. Stuff like constituency housing I'd change as well to prevent flipping for profit after doing them up on taxpayer money.

 

[shmmeee]

Social media has made it worse, but I think it's basically all media. Since they've had the opportunity to be on TV etc it's a load of posturing and doing stuff to get your name mentioned or a clip of you on the news. Basically like reality tv contestants. But then do I want all this stuff to happen behind closed doors? No.

I'm personally all for HoL reform. Think I've said on here before that you could have the lower house retained using FPTP and with named constituency MP's on the ballot, the upper house PR given vote % and members chosen by the parties. Both houses elected. Still only needs one election. Loads of other stuff I'd happily change and streamline. All the pomp and circumstance is there purely for historic reasons and not because it serves a purpose. Stuff like constituency housing I'd change as well to prevent flipping for profit after doing them up on taxpayer money.

HoL reform won’t happen for the same reasons climate change won’t be fixed, the working class never escapes its struggles and Brexit is such a shitshow. Lots of people want it to happen, but each has their own way of getting there and they can’t agree on a route to take.

I value the idea of unelected, experienced people who aren’t whoring for votes. I think religious leaders and ex MPs have their place, though I’d like to see nominations come from different industries in some way, and from academia.

I also like FPTP, it forces parties to matter to a wide coalition of voters which keeps them moderate in a radical time and it keeps a local link. I’d back STV or similar for electing constituency MPs though.

Generally as a technical guy, I’d like to see a lot more experience in relevant fields and a lot less posturing for votes in general. I support massive reform of the building and layout of the chamber as well. But generally I think move very slowly when doing things to the constitution.

 

[Ian1779]

The Lib Dem’s have ruled out any pact with labour while Corbyn is at the helm

They said the same about Brown and Miliband before. The reality is that they only do deals with Tories for ministerial gigs.

Someone should perhaps remind them that their party consists of 13MP’s and 6 squatters that are nailed on to lose their seats.

Stop giving it the Billy Big Bollocks...

 

[Astute]

You’ve literally described the backstop there.



I think if you go back over time you’ll see it was the ERG and the no dealers who dug their heels in first hoping that by sabotaging the negotiations we’d have to leave without a deal.

Now just when it looked like the Labour dealers would vote for anything put in front of them Johnson has gone full bore mental insulting their dead mate and ensuring none of them will. Because he doesn’t want a deal because the Faragistas would eat him alive.

While there’s been a noisy FBPE Revoke A50 bunch from the beginning, they’ve not actually been in a position to do anything and it’s been the hard Brexiters who have kept us in the rut.

Look wherever you want. Hardly anyone wanted the so called May deal. Look at the most vocal remain on here. They were as unkind to May as they are BJ now. And all because it would take us out of the EU. And the most vocal leavers were the same as it would have kept us tied to the EU.

 

[Astute]

I do find it funny that we currently have each side calling the other chicken for not wanting a public vote.

The GE and?

I take it you mean another referendum without the last one being implemented.

How would you feel if we got the remain vote and this shitfest happened over wanting another referendum? All trust is lost. And I can see it getting worse as there isn't an easy way out whichever way we go.

 

[Astute]

They said the same about Brown and Miliband before. The reality is that they only do deals with Tories for ministerial gigs.

Someone should perhaps remind them that their party consists of 13MP’s and 6 squatters that are nailed on to lose their seats.

Stop giving it the Billy Big Bollocks...

Have you seen that the Lib Dems have gone into second place and well above Labour as they are the home of the remain vote?

 

[Ian1779]

Have you seen that the Lib Dems have gone into second place and well above Labour as they are the home of the remain vote?

You are intelligent enough to know that intermittent polling doesn’t mean anything.

Also your claim that the Lib Dems have gone into second place is bollocks. In every published voting intention poll in September, Labour have been ahead of the Lib Dems in all but 1. There have been over 15. And that’s with their ultra remain stance.

 

[Astute]

You are intelligent enough to know that intermittent polling doesn’t mean anything.

Also your claim that the Lib Dems have gone into second place is bollocks. In every published voting intention poll in September, Labour have been ahead of the Lib Dems in all but 1. There have been over 15. And that’s with their ultra remain stance.

And you are intelligent enough to know that Brexit is much more than a passing phase. They are offering remainers exactly what they want.

And don't you mean that it was the first poll by YouGov that had them in the lead of Labour? And did you ignore the point it was straight after they said they would scrap Brexit? And the one they did before that only had Labour 1% ahead of the Lib Dems.

The sitting on the fence is costing Labour badly. Would you say the Guardian is a good enough source to quote?

Why the resurgent Liberal Democrats are Labour’s biggest headache

Certainly seems to back up everything I have said. Or shouldn't we believe the Guardian now?

 

[shmmeee]

Look wherever you want. Hardly anyone wanted the so called May deal. Look at the most vocal remain on here. They were as unkind to May as they are BJ now. And all because it would take us out of the EU. And the most vocal leavers were the same as it would have kept us tied to the EU.

There were enough “Remainer” votes to get through. There’s a significant number of Labour MPs who will vote for a deal. It’s the insistence on pushing for No Deal that’s the hold up.

Again, Mays deal is the best available if you want your red lines. Yes it’s shit, because it’s based on a hare brained half baked idea. That’s the nature of Brexit.

The unicorn people were promised doesn’t exist and it’s not Remainers fault.

 

[shmmeee]

And you are intelligent enough to know that Brexit is much more than a passing phase. They are offering remainers exactly what they want.

And don't you mean that it was the first poll by YouGov that had them in the lead of Labour? And did you ignore the point it was straight after they said they would scrap Brexit? And the one they did before that only had Labour 1% ahead of the Lib Dems.

The sitting on the fence is costing Labour badly. Would you say the Guardian is a good enough source to quote?

Why the resurgent Liberal Democrats are Labour’s biggest headache

Certainly seems to back up everything I have said. Or shouldn't we believe the Guardian now?

The Guardian are a Lib Dem and Remain paper (that’s the Observer anyway but still).

Most recent polls put Labour neck and neck with the Tories. There’s been one YouGov poll showing the Libs ahead.

We’ll see but generally the geography means Lib Dem’s doing well means Tories losing out. There’s far more Lib/Con marginals than Lib/Lab. Also tactical voting is a thing, Remainers on Lab/Con marginals will hold their nose and vote Labour because it’s better than letting Johnson through.

But to be honest, no one knows. So many variables and the old models don’t work.

 

[Astute]

There were enough “Remainer” votes to get through. There’s a significant number of Labour MPs who will vote for a deal. It’s the insistence on pushing for No Deal that’s the hold up.

Again, Mays deal is the best available if you want your red lines. Yes it’s shit, because it’s based on a hare brained half baked idea. That’s the nature of Brexit.

The unicorn people were promised doesn’t exist and it’s not Remainers fault.

Of course there was enough remainers in parliament to push it through. The majority of MP's are for remain. That is why we aren't going forward on the matter.

And yes those pushing for remain has held it up. Exactly what I said. I will say it yet again. Those wanting to remain didn't want it as it would take us out of the EU. Those wanting to leave didn't want it as it would leave us tied to the EU.

So what is the fault of who? Are you blaming those who voted leave? As you know there is much more to it than that. Shall we start with 'call me Dave' Cameron buying votes by offering the referendum if he got in?

 

[Astute]

The Guardian are a Lib Dem and Remain paper (that’s the Observer anyway but still).

Most recent polls put Labour neck and neck with the Tories. There’s been one YouGov poll showing the Libs ahead.

We’ll see but generally the geography means Lib Dem’s doing well means Tories losing out. There’s far more Lib/Con marginals than Lib/Lab. Also tactical voting is a thing, Remainers on Lab/Con marginals will hold their nose and vote Labour because it’s better than letting Johnson through.

But to be honest, no one knows. So many variables and the old models don’t work.

Labour level with the Tories on the most recent polls? Where are they?