The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (30 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Guessing he thought deep down it wouldn’t get through without heavy amends/further delays. Not sure I quite agree with his strategy ie if unsuccessful tonight, I’d separate out the election and WAB votes (before 8 Nov)....revised WAB timetable probably wouldn’t get through anyway but at least he could say he had tried

Surely he’d be better letting the opposition frustrate it and then going to a GE though?

 

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[CCFCSteve]

Makes no sense. They’d be there on Monday but not on Thursday?

I think they both want one this side of Xmas and this prevents the bill being debated. But then Boris doesn’t want it debated anyway.

It’s all very strange.

There is of course the possibility that our politicians of all stripes aren’t the political masterminds we assume.

I know, I checked the days expecting they’d be Friday v following Monday. It’s been the only reasoning I’ve heard for the three days difference though. V strange I agree

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I can't see any renegotiation happening. What has been offered is all that will be offered. Take it or leave it. Leave it means leave without an agreement/revoke article 50/another referendum. Take it means leave the EU then start talking about a deal.

That is what the EU has said all along since TM 1st effort. Non-negotiable...I think it is a simple matter of personal choice as to whether we believe them this time or not

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[CCFCSteve]

Surely he’d be better letting the opposition frustrate it and then going to a GE though?

Kind of what I was saying above. I’d have done it differently (at least try to get WAB vote pre election break up - let opposition vote against)

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I know, I checked the days expecting they’d be Friday v following Monday. It’s been the only reasoning I’ve heard for the three days difference though. V strange I agree

SNP seem to want 16 and 17yos to be able to vote too, which makes it all redundant as there's no way they'd push that through in time, even if there was a will to do so.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Saw something earlier that SNP want an election before Salmonds trial in January. Which would explain their rush.

They're politicians...virtually always a hidden (sometimes very poorly) agenda somewhere down the line

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[shmmeee]

They're politicians...virtually always a hidden (sometimes very poorly) agenda somewhere down the line

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Tripe. Talk like that just excuses the shit ones. There are good politicians and bad.

 

[shmmeee]

That is what the EU has said all along since TM 1st effort. Non-negotiable...I think it is a simple matter of personal choice as to whether we believe them this time or not

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Where have they said that? They’ve said if we want our red lines that was the best and it was. That’s why Boris abandoned his red lines. It’s always been up to us as long as we don’t ask the EU to change it’s fundamentals.

 

[Astute]

Im lost. Surely that proves that Brexit vote isn’t a determining factor or they’d have lost those seats?

That was the seats they held at the time of the referendum.

Are you telling me that the coloured maps makes it look any different? Are you trying to say that those up north and in poor areas don't mainly vote Labour?

 

[Astute]

Threat of Brexit could mean no pigs in blankets this Christmas

Stop Brexit and keep the pigs warm.

 

[shmmeee]

That was the seats they held at the time of the referendum.

Are you telling me that the coloured maps makes it look any different? Are you trying to say that those up north and in poor areas don't mainly vote Labour?

No. I’m trying to tel you we’ve had an election since Brexit and Labour didn’t lose those seats. We’ve had by-elections since then in heavy leave seats like Stoke and Labour have retained them.

Im also saying that simply looking at the referendum result and assuming everyone who voted Leave will abandon Labour is misleading because only 30% of their 2017 vote voted Leave and signs suggest that not all Leave voters were rabid right wing free traders who support Boris and/or Farage but people sending a message against the status quo that Corbyns policies appeal to. Yet more of them are “all politicians are the same” types who aren’t as used to voting and may well not turn up at a GE.

 

[Astute]

Surely he’d be better letting the opposition frustrate it and then going to a GE though?

But the opposition has stopped it going through.

 

[shmmeee]

But the opposition has stopped it going through.

How?

 

[Astute]

Tripe. Talk like that just excuses the shit ones. There are good politicians and bad.

Name the good ones.

 

[Astute]

No. I’m trying to tel you we’ve had an election since Brexit and Labour didn’t lose those seats. We’ve had by-elections since then in heavy leave seats like Stoke and Labour have retained them.

Im also saying that simply looking at the referendum result and assuming everyone who voted Leave will abandon Labour is misleading because only 30% of their 2017 vote voted Leave and signs suggest that not all Leave voters were rabid right wing free traders who support Boris and/or Farage but people sending a message against the status quo that Corbyns policies appeal to. Yet more of them are “all politicians are the same” types who aren’t as used to voting and may well not turn up at a GE.

We also hadn't had Corbyn doing what he is now...Or should I say trying not to do anything other than stop Brexit. That was the stage when he wouldn't say if he preferred in or out.

All the evidence is there. Most of England voted leave. Most of the Tory seats voted leave. Most of the Labour seats voted leave.

 

[Astute]

How?

So you never followed the referendum results and you haven't followed what has happened in parliament.

OK.

 

[skybluetony176]

So you never followed the referendum results and you haven't followed what has happened in parliament.

OK.

Boris’ deal got through. The only reason it’s not moving forward is purely down to Boris.

 

[skybluetony176]

I see the DUP abstained from Boris’ election vote. He’s definitely burned his bridges there. Or maybe the DUP don’t fancy their chances in an election. Given they were DUPed.

 

[shmmeee]

So you never followed the referendum results and you haven't followed what has happened in parliament.

OK.

So you can’t back up your assertion.

OK.

 

[skybluetony176]

The Dispatches special on C4 seems to be blowing the lid of the NHS being of the table to the US post Brexit. It seems at official and unofficial trade meetings since Boris said it’s definitely of the table drug prices have most definitely been on the table and without the safety in numbers membership of the EU we’re very much not taking back control and the US Pharmaceutical companies see the NHS as a free for all in dictating prices. Something that the EU has disempowered them from doing.

 

[Sick Boy]

Presume it’s on the basis that if the remain parties win enough seats they will ensure ‘no deal’ doesn’t happen.

Facts appear to be....

Tories want Brexit done pre election so they could say they delivered and remove risk of Brexit party. Won’t happen now. Best alternative is to accept Lib Dem/SNP proposal and argue ‘vote us back in and we’ll deliver Brexit by end of January on current WA’ - labour can’t deliver this with renegotiation and second referendum promises (and more delay)

labour wanted an election for a long time but when they knew they were unlikely to win a majority they believed best option was to stifle Brexit and government (hoping Johnson would eventually fuck up...not unreasonable assumption !) Corbyn would ideally prefer Brexit done prior to election though to focus on other policies and burst Brexit Party and Lib Dem bubbles.

SNP need an election before Alex Hammond sexual assault case in Jan

Lib Dem’s need an election before Brexit to benefit from remain labour and Tory votes (and current high polling)

Well, it’s certainly interesting times still !

This ‘Get Brexit Done’ stuff is pure nonsense, it won’t be done it’s just the start of a long and difficult process.

 

[Sick Boy]

So you can’t back up your assertion.

OK.

No change there then.

 

[shmmeee]

Name the good ones.

Ken Clarke. Keir Starmer. Caroline Lucas. Dominic Grieve. Jess Phillips. Peter Kyle. Colleen Fletcher. Jim Cunningham. Lisa Nandy. Philip Hammond. Ed Milliband. Sarah Wollaston. Theresa May. I’d even say some of the hard Brexit lot, though I don’t know them as well, probably think they’re doing the best for their country. Not JRM but many seem genuine if incorrect. I’d probably include the likes of Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell as well. If they were in it for the glory they sure were playing the long game.

I don’t agree with all their politics or think all of them are particularly competent. But I don’t think they’re evil lying politicians with a hidden agenda either.

Id argue probably as much as 70%+ of MPs of all sides are there because they want to make the country better.

 

[CCFCSteve]

This ‘Get Brexit Done’ stuff is pure nonsense, it won’t be done it’s just the start of a long and difficult process.

I was saying how they were going to pitch it. Doesn’t sound as good... ‘Get Brexit to the next stage’ to be fair !

 

[Sick Boy]

I was saying how they were going to pitch it. Doesn’t sound as good... ‘Get Brexit to the next stage’ to be fair !

It wasn’t aimed at you, just in general. It’s misleading and it’s a long way away from being done.

 

[shmmeee]

It wasn’t aimed at you, just in general. It’s misleading and it’s a long way away from being done.

To be fair, once the WAB passes we are out and would have to rejoin rather than revoke. There’s a chance we could get back before the transition period ends on the same terms but it’s really unlikely.

But yeah, Brexit will be dominating politics for the next couple of decades and it’s trying to appeal to the “sick of it” demographic which is disingenuous.

 

[shmmeee]

For those “Corbyn doesn’t want an election” people, this from a Sun journo:



Side note: I really want to hear Diane Abbott swear.

 

[Astute]

So you can’t back up your assertion.

OK.

I have backed mine up. You have given two opinion pieces and named a few cities in the whole of England yet you haven't tried to explain against official numbers.

 

[Astute]

Ken Clarke. Keir Starmer. Caroline Lucas. Dominic Grieve. Jess Phillips. Peter Kyle. Colleen Fletcher. Jim Cunningham. Lisa Nandy. Philip Hammond. Ed Milliband. Sarah Wollaston. Theresa May. I’d even say some of the hard Brexit lot, though I don’t know them as well, probably think they’re doing the best for their country. Not JRM but many seem genuine if incorrect. I’d probably include the likes of Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell as well. If they were in it for the glory they sure were playing the long game.

I don’t agree with all their politics or think all of them are particularly competent. But I don’t think they’re evil lying politicians with a hidden agenda either.

Id argue probably as much as 70%+ of MPs of all sides are there because they want to make the country better.

Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott? :shifty::smuggrin:

That is some list. And it isn't very big.

 

[Astute]

To be fair, once the WAB passes we are out and would have to rejoin rather than revoke. There’s a chance we could get back before the transition period ends on the same terms but it’s really unlikely.

But yeah, Brexit will be dominating politics for the next couple of decades and it’s trying to appeal to the “sick of it” demographic which is disingenuous.

The problem is that those sick of it just want it all over. Millions are prepared to even take a no deal to see the end of it.

You are trying to make out that most Labour seats are remain. Why don't they join the Lib Dems in saying they would stop the whole thing if it is what Labour voters want? Labour would then get voters back from the Lib Dems and also all those who are unsure.

But there you go. You say Corbyn is a liability for Labour but now you say he is one of the best MP's.

 

[shmmeee]

Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott? :shifty::smuggrin:

That is some list. And it isn't very big.

Go on then. What’s Diane Abbott’s evil plan? I’m all ears.

And that’s not a comprehensive list, just off the top of my head FFS.

Just sick of this “hurr durr I’m so edgy all politicians are liars” bollocks. Especially so because since it’s become cool the number of outright liars and shits we’ve had in the public eye has increased. Because it lets in the likes of Farage and Johnson because they “tell it like it is”.

It’s lazy, dangerous thinking. Our fucking MPs aren’t evil for gods sake. Grow up.

 

[shmmeee]

The problem is that those sick of it just want it all over. Millions are prepared to even take a no deal to see the end of it.

You are trying to make out that most Labour seats are remain. Why don't they join the Lib Dems in saying they would stop the whole thing if it is what Labour voters want? Labour would then get voters back from the Lib Dems and also all those who are unsure.

But there you go. You say Corbyn is a liability for Labour but now you say he is one of the best MP's.

Either you have the reading comprehension of a five year old, or you’re intentionally misconstruing my points. Either way, it’s boring. Address what I’m saying or don’t bother replying. It’s really not hard.

And no deal will make Brexit last longer as well have one more trade deal to negotiate. That’s the entire point.

 

[shmmeee]

I have backed mine up. You have given two opinion pieces and named a few cities in the whole of England yet you haven't tried to explain against official numbers.

Here: Strategies for Reading Comprehension :: Read Naturally, Inc.

Take that in. You’ll find you life far less frustrating.

 

[Astute]

For those “Corbyn doesn’t want an election” people, this from a Sun journo:



Side note: I really want to hear Diane Abbott swear.

So Corbyn wants what Abbott says?

Maybe he does. That is the problem. He always wanted out of the EU. Now we are left trying to work out what exactly he does want.

Is the Telegraph good enough?

Jeremy Corbyn gave these excuses for blocking an election... and he sounded utterly desperate

This one explains it for you.

Who will win the next general election? The latest polls and odds

Tories first with about 37%. Labour second with about 22%. Doesn't correspond with your spin. Brexit party with about 11%. Lib Dems with about 20%.

Can you explain why Corbyn is the first ever leader of the opposition not to accept a general election?

 

[Astute]

Either you have the reading comprehension of a five year old, or you’re intentionally misconstruing my points. Either way, it’s boring. Address what I’m saying or don’t bother replying. It’s really not hard.

And no deal will make Brexit last longer as well have one more trade deal to negotiate. That’s the entire point.

Tell me what I have misconstrued.

It isn't me. You are making out that Labour and Corbyn are much stronger than they really are. You call Corbyn a liability but now you put him in the list of best MP's......with Abbott :shifty: