The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (119 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

not really the point I’m making is it? Indeed you could argue the East Germans also were necessary casualties as it allowed the west to flourish so again on balance Hitler and the Reich was a good thing

This is such a bizarre line of argument-almost one I’d invite you to repeat on national TV

 

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[Astute]

Firstly nothing has been released yet. Secondly the last figure I saw was if you’re on £85k you’ll see a rise of around £20/month. They’ve repeatedly said they aren’t aiming tax rises at lower income groups and it’s be weird if they did. The wealth is at the top. Regardless I’m not quite a higher rate payer yet (hopefully will be next month) and I’d happily pay more tax and can afford to.

The last Labour government wasn't going to tax the less better off. Do you remember what happened?

How about pensions? We are all poorer because of Brown. A lot of people are relying on an inheritance to help them through retirement. Labour wouldn't do anything to this would they?

Labour ‘looking at’ plan to slash inheritance tax threshold, McDonnell says

And if they hit the super rich they will leave. That would leave a massive hole in finances.

Super-rich prepare to leave UK 'within minutes' if Labour wins election

 

[Grendel]

This is such a bizarre line of argument-almost one I’d invite you to repeat on national TV

Interesting you should say that

 

[djr8369]

Many people would argue that Germany did benefit economically and also that national pride and identity was worth the deaths and the deaths are not relevant now but just historical numbers.

it’s not really an outrageous thing to say on balance Hitler was good for Germany is it?

Many modern Nazis would argue this, yes.


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[Grendel]

Many modern Nazis would argue this, yes.


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Are you offended by it?

 

[djr8369]

Are you offended by it?

Is that relevant?

Seek the help you need.


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[Deleted member 5849]

Are you offended by it?

I'd just get on with it. This is classic Grendel schtick.

 

[Grendel]

I'd just get on with it. This is classic Grendel schtick.

What do you mean?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Interesting you should say that

You haven’t already done it have you?

 

[Astute]

What do you mean?

Nobody dare accuse you of saying something because they don't know who has said it :smuggrin:

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The last Labour government wasn't going to tax the less better off. Do you remember what happened?

How about pensions? We are all poorer because of Brown. A lot of people are relying on an inheritance to help them through retirement. Labour wouldn't do anything to this would they?

Labour ‘looking at’ plan to slash inheritance tax threshold, McDonnell says

And if they hit the super rich they will leave. That would leave a massive hole in finances.

Super-rich prepare to leave UK 'within minutes' if Labour wins election

The super rich pay as little tax as they can get away with as it is. They pay accountants very well to achieve this and would simply continue doing so. The USA had marginal tax rates of around 90% in the 50s-the rich went nowhere.

 

[Grendel]

You haven’t already done it have you?

I haven’t no

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I haven’t no

Do please request a slot to argue that Hitler was good for Germany.

 

[Grendel]

Do please request a slot to argue that Hitler was good for Germany.

well I’m exploring the principal of arguing that mass slaughter torture and murders could in any circumstances be justified if the political ideology suited

 

[Ian1779]

The last Labour government wasn't going to tax the less better off. Do you remember what happened?

How about pensions? We are all poorer because of Brown. A lot of people are relying on an inheritance to help them through retirement. Labour wouldn't do anything to this would they?

Labour ‘looking at’ plan to slash inheritance tax threshold, McDonnell says

And if they hit the super rich they will leave. That would leave a massive hole in finances.

Super-rich prepare to leave UK 'within minutes' if Labour wins election

Any legitimate point you have disappears when you quote that nonsense Guardian article at the end.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

well I’m exploring the principal of arguing that mass slaughter torture and murders could in any circumstances be justified if the political ideology suited

Never been the same since Beowulf have you?

 

[Astute]

The super rich pay as little tax as they can get away with as it is. They pay accountants very well to achieve this and would simply continue doing so. The USA had marginal tax rates of around 90% in the 50s-the rich went nowhere.

Ah. So because most rich didn't leave America 70 years ago nobody would leave the UK now?

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

As someone who studied the rise of Nazi Germany - Hitler did energise a failing economy, and created a number of jobs and pride in Germany following world war 1. For natural Germans those who were lucky enough to be Aryan, he did bring in prosperity in the mid to late 30s

 

[djr8369]

As someone who studied the rise of Nazi Germany - Hitler did energise a failing economy, and created a number of jobs and pride in Germany following world war 1. For natural Germans those who were lucky enough to be Aryan, he did bring in prosperity in the mid to late 30s

Yes we all learnt this at school.


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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Ah. So because most rich didn't leave America 70 years ago nobody would leave the UK now?

Evidence shows that when you do favours for the rich they tend to pocket the extra wealth and it doesn’t trickle down. The experiment in Kansas with this led the state to financial ruin very quickly indeed.

More to the point the tax cuts for the rich and corporations have done little to stem the outsourcing of American jobs to countries with lower wages. We also know that the wealthy tend to indulge in tax avoidance with great success even with ‘friendly’ rates now. Making it harder to avoid paying a fair contribution should be applauded.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Yes we all learnt this at school.


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I’m just saying

Yes we all learnt this at school.


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Well you’ll see that Grendel is somewhat right - economically he did benefit Germany.

obviously mass genocide and starting World War 2 is heinous and ultimately he was destroyed for good - but if you’re looking at him from a purely economic view he was good for Germany

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m just saying

Well you’ll see that Grendel is somewhat right - economically he did benefit Germany.

obviously mass genocide and starting World War 2 is heinous and ultimately he was destroyed for good - but if you’re looking at him from a purely economic view he was good for Germany

The country was annihilated economically and was only revived in large thanks to the Marshall Plan. Taking aside that it was carved in two and lost a large chunk of pre war territory.

 

[djr8369]

I’m just saying

Well you’ll see that Grendel is somewhat right - economically he did benefit Germany.

obviously mass genocide and starting World War 2 is heinous and ultimately he was destroyed for good - but if you’re looking at him from a purely economic view he was good for Germany

In the short term but that’s not the argument he is making.


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[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

The country was annihilated economically and was only revived in large thanks to the Marshall Plan. Taking aside that it was carved in two and lost a large chunk of pre war territory.

I didn’t say post war did I? Reparations following World War 2 and overspend on an ultimately failed World War 2 decimated Germany as you said.

but Hitler picked Germany up off its knees

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I didn’t say post war did I? Reparations following World War 2 and overspend on an ultimately failed World War 2 decimated Germany as you said.

but Hitler picked Germany up off its knees

The discussion is about ‘was Hitler good for Germany’ not ‘did Hitler pick up the economy before the war’

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What do you mean?

You know full well what I mean!

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

The discussion is about ‘was Hitler good for Germany’ not ‘did Hitler pick up the economy before the war’

Apologies - misunderstood. I’d say if he weren’t a homicidal despot then possibly, but of course mass slaughter and as you say the consequences of starting a war is not normally something considered good

 

[shmmeee]

The last Labour government wasn't going to tax the less better off. Do you remember what happened?

How about pensions? We are all poorer because of Brown. A lot of people are relying on an inheritance to help them through retirement. Labour wouldn't do anything to this would they?

Labour ‘looking at’ plan to slash inheritance tax threshold, McDonnell says

And if they hit the super rich they will leave. That would leave a massive hole in finances.

Super-rich prepare to leave UK 'within minutes' if Labour wins election

We’ve addressed the issues with the capital flight myth already. You keep flirting between criticising the neoliberal New Labour policies and the socialist current Labour policies. Make your mind up which you like.

Inheritance tax is a fair tax, unearned wealth should be taxed in a meritocracy. I accept that this isn’t what a lot of people want to hear as in this country we’ve put so much stock in housing wealth. But it is what it is. Well have to agree to disagree. I’d rather a country where you didn’t have to have rich relatives giving you charity to survive retirement TBH.

 

[Astute]

Any legitimate point you have disappears when you quote that nonsense Guardian article at the end.

I remember when the Guardian was accepted on here. Now it is only pro Labour and nothing else will do.

So what about McDonnell wanting to put the inheritance tax threshold down to the cost of a cheap house?

Not a word.

 

[Astute]

We’ve addressed the issues with the capital flight myth already. You keep flirting between criticising the neoliberal New Labour policies and the socialist current Labour policies. Make your mind up which you like.

Inheritance tax is a fair tax, unearned wealth should be taxed in a meritocracy. I accept that this isn’t what a lot of people want to hear as in this country we’ve put so much stock in housing wealth. But it is what it is. Well have to agree to disagree. I’d rather a country where you didn’t have to have rich relatives giving you charity to survive retirement TBH.

Unearned?

A lifetimes work free to be taxed. Yet another short sighted Labour tax. Many more will be dependent on the state.

But it is OK with you so that is OK.

 

[Astute]

Evidence shows that when you do favours for the rich they tend to pocket the extra wealth and it doesn’t trickle down. The experiment in Kansas with this led the state to financial ruin very quickly indeed.

More to the point the tax cuts for the rich and corporations have done little to stem the outsourcing of American jobs to countries with lower wages. We also know that the wealthy tend to indulge in tax avoidance with great success even with ‘friendly’ rates now. Making it harder to avoid paying a fair contribution should be applauded.

You are quite funny sometimes.

There is nothing wrong with jobs going elsewhere from the UK if the EU gives the loan to help it happen. But now because it isn't the EU giving the loan it is OK to mention America.

Serious clutching of straws by sime tonight.

 

[shmmeee]

Unearned?

A lifetimes work free to be taxed. Yet another short sighted Labour tax. Many more will be dependent on the state.

But it is OK with you so that is OK.

In what way has someone earned an inheritance? It’s charity.

Also the housing bubble is a function of work done by society as a whole. House value increases outside of home improvement works are unearned wealth.

Both are like lottery wins. And like lottery wins should be taxed.

I’d exempt a main house maybe with tight laws around how you define that house. But there’s a lot of people sitting on unearned wealth.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You are quite funny sometimes.

There is nothing wrong with jobs going elsewhere from the UK if the EU gives the loan to help it happen. But now because it isn't the EU giving the loan it is OK to mention America.

Serious clutching of straws by sime tonight.

More straw man arguments. I use the US as an example because it is the Tories' end goal to be like them. The ideology doesn't work.

 

[shmmeee]

You are quite funny sometimes.

There is nothing wrong with jobs going elsewhere from the UK if the EU gives the loan to help it happen. But now because it isn't the EU giving the loan it is OK to mention America.

Serious clutching of straws by sime tonight.

How does this related to his post at all?

 

[Astute]

In what way has someone earned an inheritance? It’s charity.

Also the housing bubble is a function of work done by society as a whole. House value increases outside of home improvement works are unearned wealth.

Both are like lottery wins. And like lottery wins should be taxed.

I’d exempt a main house maybe with tight laws around how you define that house. But there’s a lot of people sitting on unearned wealth.

So now the money being taxed by Labour wouldn't have been earned by the person who has died?

Would you support it if it was done by the Tories? Of course you would.