The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (31 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh yes you did. And you made out we had it so easy in every way. Had to show you how hard it was to buy a house. You blamed my generation for everything.

I don't recall defending Gordon Brown for raiding private pensions. In case you hadn't noticed, he is part of the generation I hold responsible for gross mismanagement of the world economy. His mate got us into a war that has made the world a much more dangerous place.

The economic evidence shows that mine is the first generation to have a worse deal than the one before. I know you're as bad as G when it comes to admitting mistakes but try refuting what I say instead of going for the ad hom

 

---

[Astute]

Was it not you posting about remembering the 70s? Apologies if not.

I was a kid in the 70's. Was 12 when they ended.

I remember the rubbish piled up. I remember the power cuts. I also remember that great summer. But I was a kid.

 

[shmmeee]

I was a kid in the 70's. Was 12 when they ended.

I remember the rubbish piled up. I remember the power cuts. I also remember that great summer. But I was a kid.

Must have mixed you up. Apologies.

 

[Astute]

I don't recall defending Gordon Brown for raiding private pensions. In case you hadn't noticed, he is part of the generation I hold responsible for gross mismanagement of the world economy. His mate got us into a war that has made the world a much more dangerous place.

The economic evidence shows that mine is the first generation to have a worse deal than the one before. I know you're as bad as G when it comes to admitting mistakes but try refuting what I say instead of going for the ad hom

You refused to admit it had anything to do with Labour. I remember it well.

 

[Astute]

Must have mixed you up. Apologies.

Not a problem.

 

[shmmeee]

How do you know if and why he voted remain? Saying that he did only because it’s easier shows how little thought you put into the decision. Most remainers don’t claim to have voted for remain because it is easier. It makes more sense to vote remain as we keep all benefits. Leave is up shit creek without a paddle. The Leader is fighting the Leave campaign. Leavers claim that 17.4 m voted knowing what they voted for. Obviously a lie as there are still several versions of leave. They voted for blue sky ( not sky blue ) and sunny uplands. More fool them.

Not sure if I’ve said this before but I was a a waverer then a Leaver all the way up to the day of the vote. A chat with my daughter made me settle on remain. That said I was a leaver mostly because I felt the admission of the Eastern European countries had led to immigration too quickly and that had disadvantaged my working class mates (I’m the only Remainer in my group) and I realised how small minded that was at the end.

 

[martcov]

Anyway, I enjoyed myself at the march in October. Went with my daughter and met up with some nice remainers. Passed a few nasty hate filled leavers in Wetherspoons. ( not typical of leavers ).A woman holding a Union flag was saying „push ‚em out if they try to get in“. Needless to say no remainers tried to get into Spoons as they are boycotting it. Still great day, hundreds of thousands on the street against Brexit. The pro Brexit demos didn’t have the same resonance. Doncaster had none turnout and London had more flags than people.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You refused to admit it had anything to do with Labour. I remember it well.

Got any quotes for that? I remember us discussing more or less everything else and you bringing Brown's pension raid into it. I don't remember denying him being at fault and as I keep saying, you're adding more weight to my argument, not less.

 

[Astute]

Got any quotes for that? I remember us discussing more or less everything else and you bringing Brown's pension raid into it. I don't remember denying him being at fault and as I keep saying, you're adding more weight to my argument, not less.

Denial knowing hundreds of pages have gone by?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Denial knowing hundreds of pages have gone by?

If you can find me saying that Brown wasn't at fault then I'll eat my words. Though again...him ballsing up on the economy helps my argument.

 

[martcov]

Not sure if I’ve said this before but I was a a waverer then a Leaver all the way up to the day of the vote. A chat with my daughter made me settle on remain. That said I was a leaver mostly because I felt the admission of the Eastern European countries had led to immigration too quickly and that had disadvantaged my working class mates (I’m the only Remainer in my group) and I realised how small minded that was at the end.

apart from anything else, the Trend will be that their countries get richer and they return home. In the 90s we had loads of UK and Irish building workers. Over 400 Irish pubs in Germany. The place was buzzing with Brits. UK recovered and most went home. ( no one complained about FOM then ).Will probably happen after Brexit with Eastern Europeans, if not before ( before the effects set in ). Latest discussion here is about the drift of the art market to Paris. Seen several reports on that as the galeries need a foothold in the EU. Drift away from London. Another Brexit benefit - for the EU. VisitBritain just announced that tourism is suffering and will suffer more after Brexit. Partly because of the need for EU citizens to have a passport to visit Britain. Younger people don’t bother getting one as they can travel all over Europe without a passport. They have an ID card in cheque Card Format in their pocket. My partner on the travel fairs isn’t taking part this year on any fairs because of „fucking Brexit“ as he calls it. Lack of demand. The image of the UK is damaged. Another benefit of Brexit - for the UK‘s competitors.

 

[martcov]

My general observation on Brexit evolution is that Brexiters are no longer trying to sell the benefits of being a distressed trading partner, they’ve seen that that is probably the end result followed by years of extremely difficult trade negotiations, the main argument now for Brexit is we voted for „it“ and it must happen. They are still split as to what „it“ is of course, but gladly overlook that as it would be admitting the lie that 17.4 Million voted knowing what they voted for. The truth is remain won the referendum. Leave was spit between several leaves. Unfortunately it was a binary question and the minority won - assuming one of the leaves ever gets passed. The other leavers will be as pissed off as the remainers. A minority will be happy with whatever Brexit it is.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

apart from anything else, the Trend will be that their countries get richer and they return home. In the 90s we had loads of UK and Irish building workers. Over 400 Irish pubs in Germany. The place was buzzing with Brits. UK recovered and most went home. ( no one complained about FOM then ).Will probably happen after Brexit with Eastern Europeans, if not before ( before the effects set in ). Latest discussion here is about the drift of the art market to Paris. Seen several reports on that as the galeries need a foothold in the EU. Drift away from London. Another Brexit benefit - for the EU. VisitBritain just announced that tourism is suffering and will suffer more after Brexit. Partly because of the need for EU citizens to have a passport to visit Britain. Younger people don’t bother getting one as they can travel all over Europe without a passport. They have an ID card in cheque Card Format in their pocket. My partner on the travel fairs isn’t taking part this year on any fairs because of „fucking Brexit“ as he calls it. Lack of demand. The image of the UK is damaged. Another benefit of Brexit - for the UK‘s competitors.

Stop being negative

 

[Astute]

1. No, I didn't. But suppose that Gordon Brown really is the one man who has ruined them for good. Which generation is he part of? Same goes for Tony's illegal war.

If you can find me saying that Brown wasn't at fault then I'll eat my words. Though again...him ballsing up on the economy helps my argument.

We spoke about it a fair bit. You went from total denial to this which was nearly an admission. But you was still blaming my generation for everything instead of saying anything against Labour. But you did agree on Bliar but still blamed my generation

Nothing new here.

 

[shmmeee]

I see the Remainer Alliance or whatever they’re called is falling apart already.

A bit of me loves the irony that we can’t leave because we can’t agree what Leave looks like and it seems we can remain because we can’t agree long enough to have a remain alliance.

What a bunch of contrary arseholes we all are.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We spoke about it a fair bit. You went from total denial to this which was nearly an admission. But you was still blaming my generation for everything instead of saying anything against Labour. But you did agree on Bliar but still blamed my generation

Nothing new here.

I have never avoided criticising the Labour Party on things I dislike.

 

[Grendel]

You said it's not offensive to compare it to Nazi Germany

on this topic could argue Nazi germany did a lot of good for Germany and on balance the deaths were worth it?

 

[Astute]

I have never avoided criticising the Labour Party on things I dislike.

Are you still saying that you didn't try to deny that the loss of final salary pensions were down to Gordon Brown?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Are you still saying that you didn't try to deny that the loss of final salary pensions were down to Gordon Brown?

Yes. For about the 5th time, his ballsing up helps my argument.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

on this topic could argue Nazi germany did a lot of good for Germany and on balance the deaths were worth it?

What?

 

[SBAndy]

on this topic could argue Nazi germany did a lot of good for Germany and on balance the deaths were worth it?

I’m just quoting this post so it can’t be edited at a later time, as that is one of the most outrageous things I’ve seen.

 

[Grendel]

I’m just quoting this post so it can’t be edited at a later time, as that is one of the most outrageous things I’ve seen.

why is it outrageous?

 

[Grendel]

What?

there is an argument that Germany has benefitted from these actions so on balance it was a good thing

 

[Astute]

Yes. For about the 5th time, his ballsing up helps my argument.

Does it?

You can tell by your reply that you didn't want to admit that he killed off final salary pensions but also that all you want to do is blame my generation.

Why won't you admit something for once?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Does it?

You can tell by your reply that you didn't want to admit that he killed off final salary pensions but also that all you want to do is blame my generation.

Why won't you admit something for once?

What? I never made any effort to deny it. Generation is defined by age not by political affiliation

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

there is an argument that Germany has benefitted from these actions so on balance it was a good thing

How has it benefitted? The East still carries the economic and social scars of the communist era

 

[Astute]

What? I never made any effort to deny it. Generation is defined by age not by political affiliation

You know exactly what I am saying. Just trying your normal method when you know you are wrong.

Did you try to deny Gordon Brown killed off final salary pensions with his tax grab?

If not why did your quote say....

'But suppose that Gordon Brown really is the one man who has ruined them for good. Which generation is he part of? Same goes for Tony's illegal war.'

 

[Grendel]

How has it benefitted? The East still carries the economic and social scars of the communist era

Many people would argue that Germany did benefit economically and also that national pride and identity was worth the deaths and the deaths are not relevant now but just historical numbers.

it’s not really an outrageous thing to say on balance Hitler was good for Germany is it?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Many people would argue that Germany did benefit economically and also that national pride and identity was worth the deaths and the deaths are not relevant now but just historical numbers.

it’s not really an outrageous thing to say on balance Hitler was good for Germany is it?

Was he good for those who lived behind the Iron Curtain for 40 years in one of the most spied on states in world history?

 

[Grendel]

Was he good for those who lived behind the Iron Curtain for 40 years in one of the most spied on states in world history?

not really the point I’m making is it? Indeed you could argue the East Germans also were necessary casualties as it allowed the west to flourish so again on balance Hitler and the Reich was a good thing

 

[shmmeee]

I have never avoided criticising the Labour Party on things I dislike.

Thats the rub. The Venn diagram of legitimate problems with Labour and shit spouted by the tabloids is two separate circles. So you end up knocking back nonsense then being accused of never criticising them.

 

[Astute]

Thats the rub. The Venn diagram of legitimate problems with Labour and shit spouted by the tabloids is two separate circles. So you end up knocking back nonsense then being accused of never criticising them.

Try again.

BSB said he would eat his words if he tried to defend Brown or said it wasn't him that killed off final salary pensions. The quote was there from him. But he kept going round in circles trying to change the subject. Then as usual trying to blame my generation and not the tax burden put on us by a Labour government.

Not a surprise as if Labour get in it will mean lots of tax rises. That has already been confirmed. Yet some on here don't seem to mind because the word is it will be the rich hit. We will see.

 

[shmmeee]

Try again.

BSB said he would eat his words if he tried to defend Brown or said it wasn't him that killed off final salary pensions. The quote was there from him. But he kept going round in circles trying to change the subject. Then as usual trying to blame my generation and not the tax burden put on us by a Labour government.

Not a surprise as if Labour get in it will mean lots of tax rises. That has already been confirmed. Yet some on here don't seem to mind because the word is it will be the rich hit. We will see.

Firstly nothing has been released yet. Secondly the last figure I saw was if you’re on £85k you’ll see a rise of around £20/month. They’ve repeatedly said they aren’t aiming tax rises at lower income groups and it’s be weird if they did. The wealth is at the top. Regardless I’m not quite a higher rate payer yet (hopefully will be next month) and I’d happily pay more tax and can afford to.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Firstly nothing has been released yet. Secondly the last figure I saw was if you’re on £85k you’ll see a rise of around £20/month. They’ve repeatedly said they aren’t aiming tax rises at lower income groups and it’s be weird if they did. The wealth is at the top. Regardless I’m not quite a higher rate payer yet (hopefully will be next month) and I’d happily pay more tax and can afford to.

Empty promises.... everyone's tax will go up eventually

 

[shmmeee]

Empty promises.... everyone's tax will go up eventually

Why? The economic theory Labour are following targets wealth and aims to have a trickle up economy.

The idea is capitalism is a machine for sucking wealth from bottom to top so the state needs to take it and funnel it into the bottom to ensure a healthy economy.

Most of the thinkers on that side want to do away with income tax and replace it with wealth taxes for that reason. But even that’s a bit too radical for a party of government.