The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (37 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

So after 1316 pages of arguing, has anybody changed their mind on brexit here

My view's been hardened, if the vote hasn't changed. Before there'd have been a pause, now my choice is automatic. I've been driven to become an EU fundamentalist!

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

Define “highly”

I am not wealthy enough to define the level at which they would take their money & run.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Wow.

Yes...that demonstrated it perfectly

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[SkyblueBazza]

The only twat on the whole of this thread is you.

And that demonstrated that I am obviously not alone

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[SkyblueBazza]

It doesn’t even begin to make sense. You think Bill Gates eats a thousand times as many meals as me? Wears a thousand time as many socks?

Of course not. He physically can’t. So he hoards and uses his wealth to extract rent from hard working people.

Don’t believe me, here’s a billionaire to tell you the same.

And you think making them pay more tax will stop them? No, they will move their actual money, & claim the tax rebates on any rent losses

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[SkyblueBazza]

Yep, people hear trickle used as this buzzword that must mean that they’re sharing the wealth. The reality is that regardless of the yachts, private jets, penthouses, holiday homes, second and third homes they own day to day they spend a significantly less percentage of their expendable earnings than the man in the street does for exactly the reasons you say. They can only eat the same amount as the next man, they can only wear the same number of socks as the next man etc etc. The word trickle is actually the problem not the cure.

We aren't stupid Tony. We know what trickle means...literally...whether we are talking money or whatever.

Quite simply though, Shmmeee's example about socks..? He does perhaps buy more socks as he doesn't keep them & darn the holes in the toe like many of us. AND more importantly, he doesn't nip to Tesco for his £7 or whatever for a pack of 3 either. He would more likely just get his outfitter to source a few pairs at £50 a hit. So add in the outfitter's fee & the amount spent per sock is an awful lot of wealth trickle.

He doesn't buy a Ford Focus - he buys a Bentley. So when he spends he is prepared to spend much bigger.

I'm sure Shmmeee & yourself knew all that but maybe ignored it or didn't think it through?

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[Sick Boy]

And that demonstrated that I am obviously not alone

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You’re the only one who trivialised the Holocaust. And your attempt at trying to reinforce it and be condescending even afterwards show you up as the nasty piece of work you are.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

You’re the only one who trivialised the Holocaust. And your attempt at trying to reinforce it and be condescending even afterwards show you up as the nasty piece of work you are.

Wrong. I did not trivialise the holocaust. I used it as an example of something as important as the referendum outcome being trivialised as 'only 4%' that person would be trivialising the holocaust next. Maybe you didn't work that one out, Mr Niceguy.

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We aren't stupid Tony. We know what trickle means...literally...whether we are talking money or whatever.

Quite simply though, Shmmeee's example about socks..? He does perhaps buy more socks as he doesn't keep them & darn the holes in the toe like many of us. AND more importantly, he doesn't nip to Tesco for his £7 or whatever for a pack of 3 either. He would more likely just get his outfitter to source a few pairs at £50 a hit. So add in the outfitter's fee & the amount spent per sock is an awful lot of wealth trickle.

He doesn't buy a Ford Focus - he buys a Bentley. So when he spends he is prepared to spend much bigger.

I'm sure Shmmeee & yourself knew all that but maybe ignored it or didn't think it through?

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Although you do have a point, you also have to take into account that because these people are able to retain a larger amount of their money than the average man and thus it obtains interest which will cover the extra luxury element of the articles in question.

Now you may well say that interest doesn't appear out of nowhere and has to come from investing, but that investment will be largely to their advantage - see venture capitalism and how the originator of the idea gets far less return than the moneylender.

Plus with financial markets there isn't really a need to actually do anything to make money. Sell shares in a company, value of shares goes down or you make some noises to spook the market into selling that company, buy them back at the cheaper price creating demand and reducing supply so price goes back up. Nothing has changed overall as the share price is where it started from but you've made a nice profit from nothing happening.

 

[Sick Boy]

Wrong. I did not trivialise the holocaust. I used it as an example of something as important as the referendum outcome being trivialised as 'only 4%' that person would be trivialising the holocaust next. Maybe you didn't work that one out, Mr Niceguy.

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As I said, you’re a nasty piece of work

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Wrong. I did not trivialise the holocaust. I used it as an example of something as important as the referendum outcome being trivialised as 'only 4%' that person would be trivialising the holocaust next. Maybe you didn't work that one out, Mr Niceguy.

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You & Sicko will be telling the holocaust was just a few Jews next

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If you can't see how this is terrible taste, and pretty outrageous, there's no hope for you.

 

[skybluetony176]

And you think making them pay more tax will stop them? No, they will move their actual money, & claim the tax rebates on any rent losses

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In many cases it’s making them pay some tax so you’re defeating your own argument.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I am not wealthy enough to define the level at which they would take their money & run.

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They already do that. Making it harder should be welcomed.

Still waiting on a comment about those deficits, chap.

 

[skybluetony176]

We aren't stupid Tony. We know what trickle means...literally...whether we are talking money or whatever.

Quite simply though, Shmmeee's example about socks..? He does perhaps buy more socks as he doesn't keep them & darn the holes in the toe like many of us. AND more importantly, he doesn't nip to Tesco for his £7 or whatever for a pack of 3 either. He would more likely just get his outfitter to source a few pairs at £50 a hit. So add in the outfitter's fee & the amount spent per sock is an awful lot of wealth trickle.

He doesn't buy a Ford Focus - he buys a Bentley. So when he spends he is prepared to spend much bigger.

I'm sure Shmmeee & yourself knew all that but maybe ignored it or didn't think it through?

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Talk about missing the point. If he leaves and takes his money with him we could be talking about a decimal point of his money that trickles down. His perceived contribution is minimal to inconsequential. If he moves to Outer Mongolia he’ll still be buying his Bentley etc. His contribution to the U.K. economy isn’t going to change in the big scheme of things.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

If you can't see how this is terrible taste, and pretty outrageous, there's no hope for you.

I'm sure you both pay some sort of homage & always have it in your thoughts

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[shmmeee]

We aren't stupid Tony. We know what trickle means...literally...whether we are talking money or whatever.

Quite simply though, Shmmeee's example about socks..? He does perhaps buy more socks as he doesn't keep them & darn the holes in the toe like many of us. AND more importantly, he doesn't nip to Tesco for his £7 or whatever for a pack of 3 either. He would more likely just get his outfitter to source a few pairs at £50 a hit. So add in the outfitter's fee & the amount spent per sock is an awful lot of wealth trickle.

He doesn't buy a Ford Focus - he buys a Bentley. So when he spends he is prepared to spend much bigger.

I'm sure Shmmeee & yourself knew all that but maybe ignored it or didn't think it through?

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No we have thought it through. The scale is massively different. Even if Gates buys new socks instead of washing them he still won’t come close to the consumerism created by the mass market. Just the basic logic of your argument doesn’t even stack up. If billionaires are spending at the same rate as their workers, why is their wealth increasing??

Does that Bentley provide more jobs than the Focus? Does it provide a more competitive marketplace to drive innovation? No, it doesn’t.

Trickle down is disproven economics based on fringe views that were seen as crank economics until Thatcher and Regan pushed them. It’s starts with the premise that rich people are special and need to keep as much money as possible and works backwards from there.

Again, I posted a literal billionaire saying these things. I think he knows the lifestyles of the rich and the famous far better than you.

 

[Grendel]

No we have thought it through. The scale is massively different. Even if Gates buys new socks instead of washing them he still won’t come close to the consumerism created by the mass market. Just the basic logic of your argument doesn’t even stack up. If billionaires are spending at the same rate as their workers, why is their wealth increasing??

Does that Bentley provide more jobs than the Focus? Does it provide a more competitive marketplace to drive innovation? No, it doesn’t.

Trickle down is disproven economics based on fringe views that were seen as crank economics until Thatcher and Regan pushed them. It’s starts with the premise that rich people are special and need to keep as much money as possible and works backwards from there.

Again, I posted a literal billionaire saying these things. I think he knows the lifestyles of the rich and the famous far better than you.

I wouldn’t go on about car examples if I were you. You were the idiot who said a Zoe would save people money if they bought it - probably the most idiotic thing I’ve seen on here

 

[Astute]

I wouldn’t go on about car examples if I were you. You were the idiot who said a Zoe would save people money if they bought it - probably the most idiotic thing I’ve seen on here

Nobody could think that.....could they? I run a large car with decent enough power. I can do nearly a thousand miles for the cost of hiring the battery for one. Then you have the purchase price on top.

 

[Grendel]

Nobody could think that.....could they? I run a large car with decent enough power. I can do nearly a thousand miles for the cost of hiring the battery for one. Then you have the purchase price on top.

he hadn’t thought about differential in purchase price

 

[Astute]

he hadn’t thought about differential in purchase price

But the battery rental is a big cost. About £50 a month for very low mileage and about £100 a month for average mileage.

I live just over 400 miles from Dover. I drive a Volvo V70 D5 for the long journeys. It takes half a tank of fuel for the 400 miles. About £40. So I could get 1,000 miles for the hire of the battery alone. And they would charge more for the hire if you did the mileage that I do.

 

[shmmeee]

But the battery rental is a big cost. About £50 a month for very low mileage and about £100 a month for average mileage.

I live just over 400 miles from Dover. I drive a Volvo V70 D5 for the long journeys. It takes half a tank of fuel for the 400 miles. About £40. So I could get 1,000 miles for the hire of the battery alone. And they would charge more for the hire if you did the mileage that I do.

Assume you’re talking about electric. You’re clearly an edge case and it’s not suitable for you, 95% of people don’t drive anything like you do. Won’t be far off though.

Also battery rental is only a thing with a small amount of cars. Tesla is outright for example, and has 400 mile range I believe.

 

[Grendel]

Assume you’re talking about electric. You’re clearly an edge case and it’s not suitable for you, 95% of people don’t drive anything like you do. Won’t be far off though.

Also battery rental is only a thing with a small amount of cars. Tesla is outright for example, and has 400 mile range I believe.

The list price for an electric car is circa 25% more against a like for like petrol version and also insurance typically higher you utter dimwit

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I wouldn’t go on about car examples if I were you. You were the idiot who said a Zoe would save people money if they bought it - probably the most idiotic thing I’ve seen on here

Taking the automotive jerk off to one side, the point stands that trickle down economics doesn't work and when combined with mass deregulation has resulted in some of the worst financial crashes of the last 100 years

 

[skybluetony176]

Elon Musk: Brexit uncertainty made it ‘too risky’ to put Tesla plant in UK

 

[SkyblueBazza]

No we have thought it through. The scale is massively different. Even if Gates buys new socks instead of washing them he still won’t come close to the consumerism created by the mass market. Just the basic logic of your argument doesn’t even stack up. If billionaires are spending at the same rate as their workers, why is their wealth increasing??

Does that Bentley provide more jobs than the Focus? Does it provide a more competitive marketplace to drive innovation? No, it doesn’t.

Trickle down is disproven economics based on fringe views that were seen as crank economics until Thatcher and Regan pushed them. It’s starts with the premise that rich people are special and need to keep as much money as possible and works backwards from there.

Again, I posted a literal billionaire saying these things. I think he knows the lifestyles of the rich and the famous far better than you.

I used the word trickle in its literal sense...not in relation to trickle economics. People spend money. The more money they have the more they spend. If you tax them more...they have less to spend. That leads to products unsold or sold at a lower margin than budgeted. That means people lose their jobs. That means they claim jobseekers &/or benefits. That can easily result in a net less revenue pot.

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I used the word trickle in its literal sense...not in relation to trickle economics. People spend money. The more money they have the more they spend. If you tax them more...they have less to spend. That leads to products unsold or sold at a lower margin than budgeted. That means people lose their jobs. That means they claim jobseekers &/or benefits. That can easily result in a net less revenue pot.

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If products are unsold or sold for less than budgeted margin under market economics the product must be poor/unwanted and it creates a gap in the market to be filled by a better competitor. That company will grow to fill the gap and will therefore replace the employment lost at the original company. That is how it is supposed to work (even though it doesn't) - constant readjustment leading to better quality or more cheaply produced goods and services and any issues the transitions bring about are temporary and short-term.

The thing about the more money they have the more they spend is that you need to look at it proportionally as a percentage of income rather than in actual amounts. In those terms poorer people spend far more of of their available money than more wealthy people due to necessity. Rich people sit on a far greater percentage of their wealth, hence why richer people's wealth increases and poorer people's stagnates.

As we've heard from several people on here the only way a lot of younger people are getting onto the property ladder is by NOT spending and being frugal. So this is surely hurting the economy because it means less jobs available? Meanwhile those that are profligate are actually a boon to the economy because they create more jobs due to their more varied and regular purchasing.

 

[Astute]

Assume you’re talking about electric. You’re clearly an edge case and it’s not suitable for you, 95% of people don’t drive anything like you do. Won’t be far off though.

Also battery rental is only a thing with a small amount of cars. Tesla is outright for example, and has 400 mile range I believe.

The problem is that the batteries don't last as long as the cars. You then need to spend a few grand on new batteries after about 8 years. So you pay more for the car then the value is low when new batteries are due. A bargain if you only stay local. But most people don't .

 

[shmmeee]

 

[shmmeee]

The problem is that the batteries don't last as long as the cars. You then need to spend a few grand on new batteries after about 8 years. So you pay more for the car then the value is low when new batteries are due. A bargain if you only stay local. But most people don't .

Actually most people do. Something like 95% drive less than 30 miles in an average day. But yeah there’s issues to overcome. I’m not sure 8 years is right. For a start my hybrid is 12 years old and still rocking its original battery (accept that it has far less wear than a fully electric car). Tesla’s are current rated at 300,000-500,000 miles. If we take the mid point of that that’s driving 50k miles a year to run it down on eight years. Again very much an outlier in terms of use.

 

[Astute]

Actually most people do. Something like 95% drive less than 30 miles in an average day. But yeah there’s issues to overcome. I’m not sure 8 years is right. For a start my hybrid is 12 years old and still rocking its original battery (accept that it has far less wear than a fully electric car). Tesla’s are current rated at 300,000-500,000 miles. If we take the mid point of that that’s driving 50k miles a year to run it down on eight years. Again very much an outlier in terms of use.

But how much does a Tesla cost?

I want a Tesla. But I am waiting for the prices to come down. Will most probably get one when I retire. Won't be doing my long journeys then. And will never be in a rush ever again when I am on a long journey. Although I do like the BMW i8.

 

[shmmeee]

But how much does a Tesla cost?

I want a Tesla. But I am waiting for the prices to come down. Will most probably get one when I retire. Won't be doing my long journeys then. And will never be in a rush ever again when I am on a long journey. Although I do like the BMW i8.

Oh yeah sticker price is a real issue. That’s why I want big subsidies for now. Without climate change breathing down our necks we could wait another decade or two for the tech to mature, but we don’t have that luxury.

I have faith that if we pushed towards mostly electric human ingenuity would make a lot of progress on the current problems. One possible solution is fast charging so you have smaller and cheaper batteries that can charge very quickly (like super capacitors), but you’d need lots better charging infrastructure to make that viable.

None of it seems insurmountable though, just standard early tech issues. Just chicken and eggs. Until they’re mass market a lot of the problems won’t be solved and until they’re solved they won’t be mass market. (Hence govt intervention to kick out of the vicious cycle)

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Problems I've had with electric cars are that
1. the metals needed for the batteries etc can require some very environmentally unfriendly extraction/refining processes
2. we change the way we generate electricity cos even though the emissions aren't coming out the arse of the car it's still being generated somewhere. This transition is slowly happening though.

I think they will take over eventually as the norm but they need to become more user friendly in terms of range and ease/speed of refueling without massively reducing the life of the battery. They will get there eventually.

I thought hydrogen fuel cells may have taken over as a stop gap a few years ago as it'd work in a similar way to current cars in terms of refueling and could use the existing petrol station network but the idea seemed to fall completely by the wayside.

 

[martcov]

I'm no

You are well over 60. Remember telling everyone you voted in the 1970's referendum on the Common Market entry ?

I was 20 in 1975. I will be 65 in 2020. I will not get a pension of any note as I am self employed. My pub and my flats will be my pension. I don’t live from them at the moment.

 

[martcov]

Exactly the point I think G was trying to make. The ruination of Germany that was bought about by Hitler's policies led to modern Germany booming like a Phoenix from the ashes.

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You miss out the loss of territory - which will never come back. The post war hardship. The 40 odd Years of communism in East Germany. I wouldn’t recommend following a right wing populist, wrecking the country and killing millions in order to be better off in 50 years time. Too risky.

 

[martcov]

Problems I've had with electric cars are that
1. the metals needed for the batteries etc can require some very environmentally unfriendly extraction/refining processes
2. we change the way we generate electricity cos even though the emissions aren't coming out the arse of the car it's still being generated somewhere. This transition is slowly happening though.

I think they will take over eventually as the norm but they need to become more user friendly in terms of range and ease/speed of refueling without massively reducing the life of the battery. They will get there eventually.

I thought hydrogen fuel cells may have taken over as a stop gap a few years ago as it'd work in a similar way to current cars in terms of refueling and could use the existing petrol station network but the idea seemed to fall completely by the wayside.

I heard that hydrogen fuel cells take up more space and require 3KW of power to generate 1KW of fuel. More likely to be used in buses and maybe aircraft.