General Election 2019 thread (22 Viewers)

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SBAndy

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
stupot07 said:
Disgraceful.

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Outrageous but unsurprising. There goes the belief that Johnson may behave in a more balanced manner with a sizeable majority.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
SBAndy said:
Outrageous but unsurprising. There goes the belief that Johnson may behave in a more balanced manner with a sizeable majority.
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Guess you’d never vote Labour then?
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
It really is turkeys voting for Christmas isn’t it. But I suppose I should suck it up
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Not sure it's turkeys voting for Xmas, but more voting for Thanksgiving as an alternative to Xmas. At least two of those get a pardon (although probably end up on someone's table each year - never see any follow up on how those pardoned birds are doing......)
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
Like was tried by many on here about those who voted leave?

Most people are not thick. People are not thick because they have a difference of opinion. And what makes you think you are the clever one because you have the views you do?
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I've always tried to work to the belief that the electorate are far more intelligent than they're given credit for. Sadly this result has made me question it, not because they believe in something different but because of the tactics they've been sucked in by and some of the reasoning I've heard given.

I've always believed you lay out your policies and explain them. Doesn't work.

Which party looks down their nose at the working classes and considers them to be rather stupid and picked tactics based around that assumption?

Simple slogan....check
Hardly any focus on policy.....check
Huge use of misinformation and lies in campaign........check (although this was a problem across the board the Conservatives were far more prominent in using it)
Entertaining, charismatic but massively limited leader.......check

Result - landslide victory.

Only thing they've got to be careful of is not letting it slip that's their opinion (with the odd exception like JRM who was immediately put in a bunker for the rest of the election)

Also traditional Labour voters who voted Tory because they felt Corbyn was untrustworthy and there was a problem with racism within the party.

What about those scream intelligent, thoughtful people to you?

I've no doubt there are people in Tory HQ right now pissing themselves laughing at the 'stupid plebs'.
 
RegTheDonk

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I've always tried to work to the belief that the electorate are far more intelligent than they're given credit for. Sadly this result has made me question it, not because they believe in something different but because of the tactics they've been sucked in by and some of the reasoning I've heard given.

I've always believed you lay out your policies and explain them. Doesn't work.

Which party looks down their nose at the working classes and considers them to be rather stupid and picked tactics based around that assumption?

Simple slogan....check
Hardly any focus on policy.....check
Huge use of misinformation and lies in campaign........check (although this was a problem across the board the Conservatives were far more prominent in using it)
Entertaining, charismatic but massively limited leader.......check

Result - landslide victory.

Only thing they've got to be careful of is not letting it slip that's their opinion (with the odd exception like JRM who was immediately put in a bunker for the rest of the election)

Also traditional Labour voters who voted Tory because they felt Corbyn was untrustworthy and there was a problem with racism within the party.

What about those scream intelligent, thoughtful people to you?

I've no doubt there are people in Tory HQ right now pissing themselves laughing at the 'stupid plebs'.
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Perhaps not thick at all, and able to see through the crap on the other side. At the end of the day Stephen Kinnocks soundbite summed it up perfectly.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
RegTheDonk said:
Perhaps not thick at all, and able to see through the crap on the other side. At the end of the day Stephen Kinnocks soundbite summed it up perfectly.
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He’s a sensible guy, Kinnock and got it pretty much nailed on.

I still can’t believe some (quite bright) labour supporters don’t appear to accept what even a growing number of their own MPs are saying as to the reasons why labour lost and the Tories won. I think it really does reflect changing times and differences between the old traditional (‘working class’) northern labour vote and the new (more ‘middle class’/metropolitan) one.

Yes there were some simplified, clearer messages from the Tories, rather than some crazy over the top wish list but that doesn’t mean a majority of those voters were too thick to know what they were voting for. It might have been voting for the best of a bad bunch but they made their choices for their own reasons.

ps rather than questioning traditional labour voters intelligence maybe some of them should question their own ie how on earth that labour manifesto was affordable/deliverable ?!
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
I think that’s unfair. They had a hand but the black and white non nuanced way of blaming labour for everything is daft.
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So where did I blame Labour for everything?

What I did was point out what Labour had done under Labour previously to what is said to be in danger by the Tories. But it always gets ignored by many.
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
You're missing the point. Should Labour, and for that matter every other party, set policy purely based on winning an election or should they based it on what the party members believe in and want the party to stand for? If those two things don't cross over should one be abandoned in favour of the other?

Don't know why you think I prefer certain policies, I'm not a Labour Party member anyway so what I do or don't want is irrelevant.
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Not me who missed the point. You just ignored the points I made.

Lets try again.

What is the use of Labour coming out with similar policies that have given the worse result for a lot of years?

What use is it if Labour to try and change things if they don't do what is best for getting elected? You need to be in power to make changes.

So you are not a member of the Labour party so it makes no difference on how you defend their policies?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
He’s a sensible guy, Kinnock and got it pretty much nailed on.

I still can’t believe some (quite bright) labour supporters don’t appear to accept what even a growing number of their own MPs are saying as to the reasons why labour lost and the Tories won. I think it really does reflect changing times and differences between the old traditional (‘working class’) northern labour vote and the new (more ‘middle class’/metropolitan) one.

Yes there were some simplified, clearer messages from the Tories, rather than some crazy over the top wish list but that doesn’t mean a majority of those voters were too thick to know what they were voting for. It might have been voting for the best of a bad bunch but they made their choices for their own reasons.

ps rather than questioning traditional labour voters intelligence maybe some of them should question their own ie how on earth that labour manifesto was affordable/deliverable ?!
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I don't remember much serious questioning following the obliteration in Scotland in 2015. The result of years of neglect and Tory-lite agendas passed down from head office. The great abstainers who decided to allow cuts to disability benefits in the name of winning over the 'moderates'. The 2017 manifesto won some of those seats back and won a higher share of the vote than Tony Blair achieved in 2005. It wasn't too left wing then, was it? Did the furious mud slinging against Corbyn lighten up ahead of that election? No it didn't.

There were 2 key factors at play this time. The first being the failure of the party to commit to carrying out the referendum result, and the second being an expert charlatan who plays the silly posho and dresses up as a milkman. Even around April/May time Labour was ahead in the polls...
 
Sick Boy

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
RegTheDonk said:
Perhaps not thick at all, and able to see through the crap on the other side. At the end of the day Stephen Kinnocks soundbite summed it up perfectly.
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He also highlighted, which for me, was the key driving force behind the Brexit vote and that was the huge gap between London/the south east and the rest of the country, sadly those who voted for change in that regard are going to be majorly disappointed
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don't remember much serious questioning following the obliteration in Scotland in 2015. The result of years of neglect and Tory-lite agendas passed down from head office. The great abstainers who decided to allow cuts to disability benefits in the name of winning over the 'moderates'. The 2017 manifesto won some of those seats back and won a higher share of the vote than Tony Blair achieved in 2005. It wasn't too left wing then, was it? Did the furious mud slinging against Corbyn lighten up ahead of that election? No it didn't.

There were 2 key factors at play this time. The first being the failure of the party to commit to carrying out the referendum result, and the second being an expert charlatan who plays the silly posho and dresses up as a milkman. Even around April/May time Labour was ahead in the polls...
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BSB you’re a bright guy and I appreciate you’re not a massive Corbyn fan but your obviously caught up in the same ‘blame everyone else’ bubble

This manifesto was more left wing than 2017. I’m quoting labour MPs who have complained it was a wish list, economically illiterate etc etc An incoherent policy on Brexit and a perceived (I consider it actual) lack of patriotism are all things that turned the traditional labour vote off.

You keep going on about the charlatan but for a lot of people it wasn’t voting for him, it was voting against what current labour and their leadership stood for and to deliver on the promise of the 2016 referendum

You mention Labour being ahead in the polls in April/May....they should’ve been out of sight ! This is the first forth term government for I don’t know how long and under the backdrop of three leaders, Brexit and coming to government shortly after the financial crisis. A majority of the public pay little attention to politics until elections but the more they saw of Corbyn and his plans, the more circumspect they became - 2017 was a v strange one as he hadn’t been leader for long (first election) May had a stinker and I think a lot of people were happy to vote for something ‘different’. The argument about share of vote in 2017 sounds good until you consider that Mays was obviously higher and she had an absolute shocker !

There’s no need to listen to me or other people on here though, just listen to half of the labour MPs and the traditional labour voters
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
BSB you’re a bright guy and I appreciate you’re not a massive Corbyn fan but your obviously caught up in the same ‘blame everyone else’ bubble

This manifesto was more left wing than 2017. I’m quoting labour MPs who have complained it was a wish list, economically illiterate etc etc An incoherent policy on Brexit and a perceived (I consider it actual) lack of patriotism are all things that turned the traditional labour vote off.

You keep going on about the charlatan but for a lot of people it wasn’t voting for him, it was voting against what current labour and their leadership stood for and to deliver on the promise of the 2016 referendum

You mention Labour being ahead in the polls in April/May....they should’ve been out of sight ! This is the first forth term government for I don’t know how long and under the backdrop of three leaders, Brexit and coming to government shortly after the financial crisis. A majority of the public pay little attention to politics until elections but the more they saw of Corbyn and his plans, the more circumspect they became - 2017 was a v strange one as he hadn’t been leader for long (first election) May had a stinker and I think a lot of people were happy to vote for something ‘different’. The argument about share of vote in 2017 sounds good until you consider that Mays was obviously higher and she had an absolute shocker !

There’s no need to listen to me or other people on here though, just listen to half of the labour MPs and the traditional labour voters
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I think there are a variety of reasons why Labour lost the election.
Ultimately they all happened on Corbyns watch.
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
BSB you’re a bright guy and I appreciate you’re not a massive Corbyn fan but your obviously caught up in the same ‘blame everyone else’ bubble

This manifesto was more left wing than 2017. I’m quoting labour MPs who have complained it was a wish list, economically illiterate etc etc An incoherent policy on Brexit and a perceived (I consider it actual) lack of patriotism are all things that turned the traditional labour vote off.

You keep going on about the charlatan but for a lot of people it wasn’t voting for him, it was voting against what current labour and their leadership stood for and to deliver on the promise of the 2016 referendum

You mention Labour being ahead in the polls in April/May....they should’ve been out of sight ! This is the first forth term government for I don’t know how long and under the backdrop of three leaders, Brexit and coming to government shortly after the financial crisis. A majority of the public pay little attention to politics until elections but the more they saw of Corbyn and his plans, the more circumspect they became - 2017 was a v strange one as he hadn’t been leader for long (first election) May had a stinker and I think a lot of people were happy to vote for something ‘different’. The argument about share of vote in 2017 sounds good until you consider that Mays was obviously higher and she had an absolute shocker !

There’s no need to listen to me or other people on here though, just listen to half of the labour MPs and the traditional labour voters
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Fully agree. Couldn't bring myself to vote for Labour this time. Ended up not voting. Where I live in England is now a Tory seat. Labour don't hold a single seat in Cumbria. The Tories now hold every seat in Cumbria but one. And that is held by the Lib Dems.

How can Labour have lost a whole county up north without there being a major problem?
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
Fully agree. Couldn't bring myself to vote for Labour this time. Ended up not voting. Where I live in England is now a Tory seat. Labour don't hold a single seat in Cumbria. The Tories now hold every seat in Cumbria but one. And that is held by the Lib Dems.

How can Labour have lost a whole county up north without there being a major problem?
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And when not in power. Utterly lost trust of being able to change things for the better. Beggars belief but that’s how it is. Tories have let their communities down but they are trusting Boris to improve things having shown no inclination to do so. Unreal
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
Not saying close but 10m people is a huge amount of people
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It is when you consider the public sector workforce is around 5-5.5m (if anyone has their voting split I’d like to see it)

Thats not me being confrontational, however, I’d imagine after a period of austerity, minimal wage increases etc they wouldn’t have been falling over themselves to vote Tory
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
BSB you’re a bright guy and I appreciate you’re not a massive Corbyn fan but your obviously caught up in the same ‘blame everyone else’ bubble

This manifesto was more left wing than 2017. I’m quoting labour MPs who have complained it was a wish list, economically illiterate etc etc An incoherent policy on Brexit and a perceived (I consider it actual) lack of patriotism are all things that turned the traditional labour vote off.

You keep going on about the charlatan but for a lot of people it wasn’t voting for him, it was voting against what current labour and their leadership stood for and to deliver on the promise of the 2016 referendum

You mention Labour being ahead in the polls in April/May....they should’ve been out of sight ! This is the first forth term government for I don’t know how long and under the backdrop of three leaders, Brexit and coming to government shortly after the financial crisis. A majority of the public pay little attention to politics until elections but the more they saw of Corbyn and his plans, the more circumspect they became - 2017 was a v strange one as he hadn’t been leader for long (first election) May had a stinker and I think a lot of people were happy to vote for something ‘different’. The argument about share of vote in 2017 sounds good until you consider that Mays was obviously higher and she had an absolute shocker !

There’s no need to listen to me or other people on here though, just listen to half of the labour MPs and the traditional labour voters
Click to expand...

I referred to that as well. If I were in that bubble I would not have been calling for him to resign months ago. I also expressed strong reservations about some parts of the manifesto and only made my mind up on the day.

It also indisputable that Corbyn has been targeted relentlessly for 4 years in a way which I don’t think has been paralleled for decades. Lots of mud thrown in his direction and when you speak with some of those Tory voters it was the first thing that came to their mind. We also know that the Tories went all out on a misinformation campaign.
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
And when not in power. Utterly lost trust of being able to change things for the better. Beggars belief but that’s how it is. Tories have let their communities down but they are trusting Boris to improve things having shown no inclination to do so. Unreal
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Very simple. They trusted Boris more than Corbyn. How could anyone disagree?
 
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