Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (33 Viewers)

[stupot07]

I get your point to an extent, you have to ask why was Coronavirus mentioned at all in that context then Steve? The premise of it is about not intervening isn't it.

Exactly.

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[CCFCSteve]

I get your point to an extent, you have to ask why was Coronavirus mentioned at all in that context then Steve? The premise of it is about not intervening isn't it.

Im not being difficult but I didn’t hear (get) the bit about not intervening hence me looking into it. I got that Coronavirus was causing more countries to put their barriers up and causing more market segregation and that we wouldn’t do that. I was honestly listened to it with a completely open mind as well.

As I say people will hear what the want to in terms of context etc. Unfortunately because of current circumstances people will put two and two together and tie our perceived (could be argued actual) slow response and the words used, I just don’t see it.

 

[Astute]

The Times article is damming and it will be interesting to see the government response (and more importantly the inquiries when all the information is laid bare - which is the right time/way for people to held to account)

I watched that video about 5 or 6 times and I’m still wasnt quite sure about the uproar. People will read into it what they want but it’s a minute clip and he starts by talking about ‘it’s in that context’ what context ? So I googled the speech and checked the transcript...

‘From Brussels to China to Washington tariffs are being waved around like cudgels even in debates on foreign policy where frankly they have no place - and there is an ever growing proliferation of non-tariff barriers and the resulting tensions are letting the air out of the tyres of the world economy.

World trading volumes are lagging behind global growth.

Trade used to grow at roughly double global GDP – from 1987 to 2007.

Now it barely keeps pace and global growth is itself anaemic and the decline in global poverty is beginning to slow.

And in that context, we are starting to hear some bizarre autarkic rhetoric, when barriers are going up, and when there is a risk that new diseases such as coronavirus will trigger a panic and a desire for market segregation that go beyond what is medically rational to the point of doing real and unnecessary economic damage, then at that moment humanity needs some government somewhere that is willing at least to make the case powerfully for freedom of exchange, some country ready to take off its Clark Kent spectacles and leap into the phone booth and emerge with its cloak flowing as the supercharged champion, of the right of the populations of the earth to buy and sell freely among each other’

So basically the context was how unnecessary trade barriers and protectionism are slowing the decline of global poverty ???? But I guess the person uploading it didn’t want that bit on there ?!

There are plenty of genuine faults to be looked into after it’s over but this type of nonsense (to be polite) isn’t any help to anyone !

Very interesting considering all the media is supposed to be on the side of the Tories.

If they were all on the side of the Tories maybe the tide is turning.

 

[Astute]

Im not being difficult but I didn’t hear (get) the bit about not intervening hence me looking into it. I got that Coronavirus was causing more countries to put their barriers up and causing more market segregation and that we wouldn’t do that. I was honestly listened to it with a completely open mind as well.

As I say people will hear what the want to in terms of context etc. Unfortunately because of current circumstances people will put two and two together and tie our perceived (could be argued actual) slow response and the words used, I just don’t see it.

I am all for hammering someone for what they have done wrong. But what we don't need to happen is Labour believing false news and having a go at the Tories for it for the news to be shown to be false. It would make those who voted Tory back them and deride Labour even more.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Very interesting considering all the media is supposed to be on the side of the Tories.

If they were all on the side of the Tories maybe the tide is turning.

The times is usually right leaning (but from
memory also wanted to remain - think the Sunday times was the same but don’t quote me !)

From articles I’ve read they’re usually pretty fair hence it will be interesting to see the governments response. They were pretty brutal 2-3 weeks ago when there was the uproar about Cummings (herd immunity/London lockdown) and the author of the article had to tweet a couple of clarification points. Not sure if this article is by the same people/person

 

[CCFCSteve]

I am all for hammering someone for what they have done wrong. But what we don't need to happen is Labour believing false news and having a go at the Tories for it for the news to be shown to be false. It would make those who voted Tory back them and deride Labour even more.

Thats why I think Starmer is probably taking the correct approach at present. Still point out immediate issues/failings and then when there’s an inquiry if there are major failings/issues jump on them and capitalise on them then. The wider public wouldn’t appreciate him giving a government a good shoeing based on articles etc at present, however much some would prefer him to.

 

[clint van damme]

Very interesting considering all the media is supposed to be on the side of the Tories.

If they were all on the side of the Tories maybe the tide is turning.

Maybe it's just one particular Tory they're not on the side of.
There's certainly evidence to suggest that perhaps that's the case. Time will tell.

 

[David O'Day]

But but Boris ladddddd

When Ruper Murdochs times newspaper is lining up to bury Boris it will be hard to survive.



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[Skybluefaz]

I am all for hammering someone for what they have done wrong. But what we don't need to happen is Labour believing false news and having a go at the Tories for it for the news to be shown to be false. It would make those who voted Tory back them and deride Labour even more.

Those who voted tory voted for them after they set up their Twitter account to mimic the fact check Twitter account
Twitter accuses Tories of misleading public with 'factcheck' foray
They have no moral high ground

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

My mind changed a little when I read an article. An 80 ton shipment turned up from Turkey. It had 500,000 medical gowns on it. Sounded great. But then it said it won't last long as there are 400,000 frontline staff. It gives an idea of the problem we face.

Countries that manufacture items are keeping them for themselves. This us the problem with becoming service based and mot manufacturing based. The EU even made an apology to Italy for shipments that had been paid for from France and Germany that they ended up keeping for themselves.

Just like the test kits we bought that ended up being useless.

I put it down to running everything on a tight budget. Always wanting to get the cheapest price but wasting NHS money on management. Suddenly the items are like gold dust. The suppliers can get a much better price elsewhere so they sell elsewhere.

Does anyone honestly think they are not trying to buy PPE?

I think they are trying to get it and are having problems, but at the same time the bean counters will only let them get so much.

Plus it still doesn't explain why, when told this was one of the most likely crises to occur, the PPE etc was not stockpiled in case of emergency or even when the disease first reared its head why they didnt get as much supply in early doors in case it did end up as it has and demand going through the roof at a later date.

Also as you say since the 80's the focus has been on service industries , financial services esp, so we're heavily reliant on imports. Nothing fundamentally wrong with that but it's a balancing act and we've massively overtipped the scales. Perhaps we could sew all those £20's together to create PPE? Oh wait, no we can't because the money doesn't actually exist except on some computer database.

 

[shmmeee]

The Times article is damming and it will be interesting to see the government response (and more importantly the inquiries when all the information is laid bare - which is the right time/way for people to held to account)

I watched that video about 5 or 6 times and I’m still wasnt quite sure about the uproar. People will read into it what they want but it’s a minute clip and he starts by talking about ‘it’s in that context’ what context ? So I googled the speech and checked the transcript...

‘From Brussels to China to Washington tariffs are being waved around like cudgels even in debates on foreign policy where frankly they have no place - and there is an ever growing proliferation of non-tariff barriers and the resulting tensions are letting the air out of the tyres of the world economy.

World trading volumes are lagging behind global growth.

Trade used to grow at roughly double global GDP – from 1987 to 2007.

Now it barely keeps pace and global growth is itself anaemic and the decline in global poverty is beginning to slow.

And in that context, we are starting to hear some bizarre autarkic rhetoric, when barriers are going up, and when there is a risk that new diseases such as coronavirus will trigger a panic and a desire for market segregation that go beyond what is medically rational to the point of doing real and unnecessary economic damage, then at that moment humanity needs some government somewhere that is willing at least to make the case powerfully for freedom of exchange, some country ready to take off its Clark Kent spectacles and leap into the phone booth and emerge with its cloak flowing as the supercharged champion, of the right of the populations of the earth to buy and sell freely among each other’

So basically the context was how unnecessary trade barriers and protectionism are slowing the decline of global poverty ???? But I guess the person uploading it didn’t want that bit on there ?!

There are plenty of genuine faults to be looked into after it’s over but this type of nonsense (to be polite) isn’t any help to anyone !

The government response was basically “it’s mostly correct”. We knew most of it already mate.

And I’m sorry but at what point do you stop minimising evidence after evidence that this government intended to have less of a lockdown and therefore more deaths to gain a small economic advantage?

Come on Steve, you’re a reasonable bloke and I’m sure it must be hard to internalise the people you’ve voted for doing such thing but that’s where all the evidence points.

This shouldn’t be about party politics and sticking up for who you voted for. Have some humility and realise thousands have died unnecessarily due to government action. Thousands. More than any terrorist attack. More than Grenfell. All for ideology and laziness.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Nah he is master joke teller and pint holder, nobody else in their party is better at it

Yep. He's the one that is most like Farage and so can negate his effect making sure the right leaning vote continues to vote Tory.

 

[shmmeee]

Im not being difficult but I didn’t hear (get) the bit about not intervening hence me looking into it. I got that Coronavirus was causing more countries to put their barriers up and causing more market segregation and that we wouldn’t do that. I was honestly listened to it with a completely open mind as well.

As I say people will hear what the want to in terms of context etc. Unfortunately because of current circumstances people will put two and two together and tie our perceived (could be argued actual) slow response and the words used, I just don’t see it.

And the “take it on the chin”?

The quotes from government insiders in well connected papers saying “we didn’t want lockdown”?

The quotes from scientific advisors saying their advice was ignored?

The quotes from Whitehall about Cummings presentation “a few pensioners will die”?

At some point mate you’re just deluding yourself.

Ive been there. Voting Labour when Iraq happened and the full extent of the deceit came out. But there comes a point where basic humanity and common sense comes ahead of party loyalty.

 

[Ian1779]

It won’t end here - this government will try and send kids back to school too early, social distancing is utterly impossible in an education setting, and then we just start the cycle of disease spreading all over again.

 

[clint van damme]

But but Boris ladddddd

When Ruper Murdochs times newspaper is lining up to bury Boris it will be hard to survive.



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For a man who said we've had enough of experts!

 

[CCFCSteve]

The government response was basically “it’s mostly correct”. We knew most of it already mate.

And I’m sorry but at what point do you stop minimising evidence after evidence that this government intended to have less of a lockdown and therefore more deaths to gain a small economic advantage?

Come on Steve, you’re a reasonable bloke and I’m sure it must be hard to internalise the people you’ve voted for doing such thing but that’s where all the evidence points.

This shouldn’t be about party politics and sticking up for who you voted for. Have some humility and realise thousands have died unnecessarily due to government action. Thousands. More than any terrorist attack. More than Grenfell. All for ideology and laziness.

You’re right shmmeee, this isn’t about party politics and inquiries will be held to understand what actions were taken, when and why and I would expect people to be held to account. I’m keeping an open mind on certain elements until then (I’ve commented before about PPE and testing NHS workers as the two main issues I see as failings)

In terms of the planned lesser lockdown, I agree, I think the intention was not to have a strict lockdown (quite rightly if feasible/possible....it wasn’t hence the measures implemented)

If it’s found that the government ignored advice for purely economic reasons Ill be first to call for heads to roll

Unfortunately rather than sensible debate people would rather throw the kitchen sink at it.....like that dodgy/cut video earlier

ps I listen to Majid Nawaz (former Lib Dem) a fair bit on LBC (usually reasonably/balanced, got a bit ranty over brexit but didn’t everyone on both sides). He’s talking about Times article now and posted some stuff on Twitter.

أبو عمّار (@MaajidNawaz) on Twitter

 

[clint van damme]

You’re right shmmeee, this isn’t about party politics and inquiries will be held to understand what actions were taken, when and why and I would expect people to be held to account. I’m keeping an open mind on certain elements until then (I’ve commented before about PPE and testing NHS workers as the two main issues I see as failings)

In terms of the planned lesser lockdown, I agree, I think the intention was not to have a strict lockdown (quite rightly if feasible/possible....it wasn’t hence the measures implemented)

If it’s found that the government ignored advice for purely economic reasons Ill be first to call for heads to roll

Unfortunately rather than sensible debate people would rather throw the kitchen sink at it.....like that dodgy/cut video earlier

ps I listen to Majid Nawaz (former Lib Dem) a fair bit on LBC (usually reasonably/balanced, got a bit ranty over brexit but didn’t everyone on both sides). He’s talking about Times article now and posted some stuff on Twitter.

أبو عمّار (@MaajidNawaz) on Twitter

I saw the Nawaz stuff earlier and if he's correct it would seem the knives are out Johnson.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The Times article is damming and it will be interesting to see the government response (and more importantly the inquiries when all the information is laid bare - which is the right time/way for people to held to account)

I watched that video about 5 or 6 times and I’m still wasnt quite sure about the uproar. People will read into it what they want but it’s a minute clip and he starts by talking about ‘it’s in that context’ what context ? So I googled the speech and checked the transcript...

‘From Brussels to China to Washington tariffs are being waved around like cudgels even in debates on foreign policy where frankly they have no place - and there is an ever growing proliferation of non-tariff barriers and the resulting tensions are letting the air out of the tyres of the world economy.

World trading volumes are lagging behind global growth.

Trade used to grow at roughly double global GDP – from 1987 to 2007.

Now it barely keeps pace and global growth is itself anaemic and the decline in global poverty is beginning to slow.

And in that context, we are starting to hear some bizarre autarkic rhetoric, when barriers are going up, and when there is a risk that new diseases such as coronavirus will trigger a panic and a desire for market segregation that go beyond what is medically rational to the point of doing real and unnecessary economic damage, then at that moment humanity needs some government somewhere that is willing at least to make the case powerfully for freedom of exchange, some country ready to take off its Clark Kent spectacles and leap into the phone booth and emerge with its cloak flowing as the supercharged champion, of the right of the populations of the earth to buy and sell freely among each other’

So basically the context was how unnecessary trade barriers and protectionism are slowing the decline of global poverty ???? But I guess the person uploading it didn’t want that bit on there ?!

There are plenty of genuine faults to be looked into after it’s over but this type of nonsense (to be polite) isn’t any help to anyone !

“when this is over”- you mean in the same way there was an unbiased & professional inquiry into Hillsborough? Not a chance- they need to be questioned, challenged now because these fucking ghouls will already be calculating how to apportion blame to everyone else while saying “now isn’t the right time”

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I saw the Nawaz stuff earlier and if he's correct it would seem the knives are out Johnson.

If they bin him off it would be a huge mistake unless they have a Mk II lined up but I'm not aware of any up and coming charlatans for the time being

 

[Ring Of Steel]

If they bin him off it would be a huge mistake unless they have a Mk II lined up but I'm not aware of any up and coming charlatans for the time being

rumours abound that Gove sees his opportunity

eg:


it’s not a popular opinion but I stand by it: while “the left” are standing by, “the right” are calculating the next move. That’s why they always win.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

rumours abound that Gove sees his opportunity

eg:


it’s not a popular opinion but I stand by it: while “the left” are standing by, “the right” are calculating the next move. That’s why they always win.

Can he hold a pint like Johnson? Can he make wisecracks on the spot?

 

[CCFCSteve]

And the “take it on the chin”?

The quotes from government insiders in well connected papers saying “we didn’t want lockdown”?

The quotes from scientific advisors saying their advice was ignored?

The quotes from Whitehall about Cummings presentation “a few pensioners will die”?

At some point mate you’re just deluding yourself.

Ive been there. Voting Labour when Iraq happened and the full extent of the deceit came out. But there comes a point where basic humanity and common sense comes ahead of party loyalty.

Can we stop with this ‘party loyalty’ stuff shmmeee, I’ve let a few comments ride as they were said in half jest but I’ve also stated on numerous occasions that I have no loyalty. I’ve voted for the two main parties equal times.

Please don’t misinterpret me questioning articles, videos etc and calling out factually incorrect comments (like ‘take it on the chin’) as me supporting the Tories.

I’ve said that in relation to a number of the elements I’d reserve my judgement until I’m armed with all the facts and inquiries are held and would support people to be held to account. Ive also already highlighted what I consider as failings. I can’t say more than that but that’s not me showing a lack of humility/basic humanity

 

[Ian1779]

Can he hold a pint like Johnson? Can he make wisecracks on the spot?

He can do a line like a boss though...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Can we stop with this ‘party loyalty’ stuff shmmeee, I’ve let a few comments ride as they were said in half jest but I’ve also stated on numerous occasions that I have no loyalty. I’ve voted for the two main parties equal times.

Please don’t misinterpret me questioning articles, videos etc and calling out factually incorrect comments (like ‘take it on the chin’) as me supporting the Tories.

I’ve said that in relation to a number of the elements I’d reserve my judgement until I’m armed with all the facts and inquiries are held and would support people to be held to account. Ive also already highlighted what I consider as failings. I can’t say more than that but that’s not me showing a lack of humility/basic humanity

Makes me wish we didn't have political parties

 

[David O'Day]

Can he hold a pint like Johnson? Can he make wisecracks on the spot?

Gove also been pretty visible so that is nonsense

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[CCFCSteve]

“when this is over”- you mean in the same way there was an unbiased & professional inquiry into Hillsborough? Not a chance- they need to be questioned, challenged now because these fucking ghouls will already be calculating how to apportion blame to everyone else while saying “now isn’t the right time”

Well there’s already minutes available from the scientific committee meetings etc etc so shouldn’t be too difficult to pull together the facts

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Well there’s already minutes available from the scientific committee meetings etc etc so shouldn’t be too difficult to pull together the facts

just like the Russia report you mean? That was a great example of transparency wasn’t it.

Meanwhile, while we’re waiting for the Conservatives to decide what the facts should be, here is a real fact

 

[Astute]

Thats why I think Starmer is probably taking the correct approach at present. Still point out immediate issues/failings and then when there’s an inquiry if there are major failings/issues jump on them and capitalise on them then. The wider public wouldn’t appreciate him giving a government a good shoeing based on articles etc at present, however much some would prefer him to.

Which is exactly my point. The Tories are doing enough damage to themselves. It will be good to see what happens next. Glad it is the Tories in charge while this is happening.

 

[Astute]

Those who voted tory voted for them after they set up their Twitter account to mimic the fact check Twitter account
Twitter accuses Tories of misleading public with 'factcheck' foray
They have no moral high ground

You just worked that out?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

If anyone understandably doesn’t want to pay to read the Times article, here it is. If after reading anyone would still like to say that we should wait until it’s all over (which would mysteriously turn out to be about 2 years) as opposed to asking some pretty fucking serious questions now, would be fascinated to know how that can be justified.

 

[Sick Boy]

Can we stop with this ‘party loyalty’ stuff shmmeee, I’ve let a few comments ride as they were said in half jest but I’ve also stated on numerous occasions that I have no loyalty. I’ve voted for the two main parties equal times.

Works on both sides though mate, I’ve been labelled as a left wing Labour voted when I’ve only voted Labour twice in 15 years.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Works on both sides though mate, I’ve been labelled as a left wing Labour voted when I’ve only voted Labour twice in 15 years.

I’ve never voted labour in my life and yet I’m apparently a “leftie”- it’s the go-to defence to try and deflect. That your opinion is not valid if you are on the wrong side.

 

[CCFCSteve]

If anyone understandably doesn’t want to pay to read the Times article, here it is. If after reading anyone would still like to say that we should wait until it’s all over (which would mysteriously turn out to be about 2 years) as opposed to asking some pretty fucking serious questions now, would be fascinated to know how that can be justified.

And then read some of the comments here
around timelines, scientific advice etc to show you should try to retain a balanced view and not necessarily jump to the conclusions based on headlines

أبو عمّار (@MaajidNawaz) on Twitter

As I say, this isn’t a defence of the government (he’s a Lib Dem) it’s a defence of facts

 

[Ring Of Steel]

And then read some of the comments here
around timelines, advice etc to show you should try to retain a balanced view and not necessarily jump to the conclusions based on headlines

أبو عمّار (@MaajidNawaz) on Twitter

Actually I’m jumping to a conclusion based on thousands dead, no PPE, lack of equipment, constant lies, pin badges, doctoring figures etc etc That conclusion is that the government have failed their population horrendously and unforgivably. The article has come after all those facts became apparent, so you’re splitting hairs again.

 

[chiefdave]

Very interesting considering all the media is supposed to be on the side of the Tories.

Pretty simple explanation, Murdoch / Times back Gove, Telegraph backs Johnson.