Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (102 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

Across the world, face masks are becoming mandatory. Why not in the UK? | Babak Javid

I wouldn’t be surprised to see face masks being at least encouraged as part of the relaxation of restrictions (be surprised if they became mandatory but we’ll see)

 

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[clint van damme]

More details of SAGE coming out and its not looking good. Government claiming Cummings and Warner were observers. Ignoring that if they should be attending in that capacity is up for debate other present at the meeting are disputing it and saying they were active participants. That's bad enough but its also being reported the chief scientific advisers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were only allowed to observer and not participate.

I know some people were criticising 'lefties' for questioning the follow the science line when our science seemed to differ from every other country but even they must admit this is worrying.

people positioning themselves to try and ensure it's not them who goes under the bus. In what capacity Cummings was there will be crucial.
This is going to get messy. I don't expect we'll see the minutes of this meeting anytime soon.

 

[chiefdave]

people positioning themselves to try and ensure it's not them who goes under the bus. In what capacity Cummings was there will be crucial.
This is going to get messy. I don't expect we'll see the minutes of this meeting anytime soon.

The fact that the minutes are just be put out there as proof of what the government is claiming is pretty telling.

 

[CCFCSteve]

More details of SAGE coming out and its not looking good. Government claiming Cummings and Warner were observers. Ignoring that if they should be attending in that capacity is up for debate other present at the meeting are disputing it and saying they were active participants. That's bad enough but its also being reported the chief scientific advisers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were only allowed to observer and not participate.

I know some people were criticising 'lefties' for questioning the follow the science line when our science seemed to differ from every other country but even they must admit this is worrying.

I didn’t respond to the original post attaching the article as i found it unclear/contradictory, (so wanted to wait for more info to come out first), for example they had comments from Sir King, who was quite rightly shocked and concerned about Cummings ‘being on the committee’...however, this has been denied by Downing Street

‘Late on Friday, Downing Street released a second statement. “It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are ‘on’ or members of Sage. Mr Cummings and Dr Warner have attended some Sage meetings and listen to some meetings now they are all virtual. Occasionally they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall,” a No 10 spokesman said’

That’s very different to being ‘on the committee’

From what the article indicates and from what I’ve read elsewhere they were in attendance/observing and asking questions...I presume to try to understand the science but I’m guessing

The two questions I would want answered

1) assuming they aren’t ‘on the committee’, was the scientific advice influenced by Cumming’s attendance

2) did Johnson only get feedback on SAGE meetings via Cummings or has he received it directly from SAGE and the scientists on the committee

ps one week we have the Sunday Times suggesting a lazy/complacent/uninterested approach to Covid-19 by the government in Feb/early March, the following week we have The Guardian suggesting the government were putting people on/influencing SAGE committee during that same period. You can see why people are getting a bit frustrating by the media

 

[chiefdave]

From what the article indicates and from what I’ve read elsewhere they were in attendance/observing and asking questions...I presume to try to understand the science but I’m guessing

If they are only observing then why are others present telling the press they were taking an active part. Also if the likes of Cummings are taking part why are the chief scientific advisers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland not allowed to participate?

Once again the evidence isn't matching what the government is claiming. Our response was different to pretty much every other country and we were told we were following the science. When people queried why our science appeared to be different to the rest of the world they were branded 'lefties' or told to move to Italy.

 

[clint van damme]

I didn’t respond to the original post attaching the article as i found it unclear/contradictory, (so wanted to wait for more info to come out first), for example they had comments from Sir King, who quite rightly shocked and concerned about Cummings ‘being on the committee’...however, this has been denied by Downing Street

‘Late on Friday, Downing Street released a second statement. “It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are ‘on’ or members of Sage. Mr Cummings and Dr Warner have attended some Sage meetings and listen to some meetings now they are all virtual. Occasionally they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall,” a No 10 spokesman said’

That’s very different to being ‘on the committee’

From what the article indicates and from what I’ve read elsewhere they were in attendance/observing and asking questions...I presume to try to understand the science but I’m guessing

The two questions I would want answered

1) assuming they aren’t ‘on the committee’, was the scientific advice influenced by Cumming’s attendance

2) did Johnson’s only get feedback on SAGE meetings via Cummings or has he received it directly from SAGE and the scientists on the committee

ps one week we have the Sunday Times suggesting a lazy/complacent approach to Covid-19 by the government in Feb/early March, the following week we have The Guardian suggesting the government were putting people on/influencing SAGE committee during that same period. You can see why people are getting a bit frustrating by the media

The Guardian didn't pluck their article out of thin air, someone fed it to them.
Those involved are trying to make sure they don't end up the scapegoat. Those with scores to settle are going to use this to try and do so.
The Guardian article contains a direct quote from David Lidington and David Davis has being Tweeting:

 

[CCFCSteve]

If they are only observing then why are others present telling the press they were taking an active part. Also if the likes of Cummings are taking part why are the chief scientific advisers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland not allowed to participate?

Once again the evidence isn't matching what the government is claiming. Our response was different to pretty much every other country and we were told we were following the science. When people queried why our science appeared to be different to the rest of the world they were branded 'lefties' or told to move to Italy.

Do you really think people like Witty and Vallance (and the other scientists on the various committees) would go against their scientific beliefs because of someone like Cummings ?!

There are questions to be answered regarding Cummings attendance as I mention above but I can’t quite get the other stuff

 

[clint van damme]

Do you really think people like Witty and Valence (and the other scientists on the committee) would go against their scientific beliefs because of someone like Cummings ?!

The end decisions aren't theirs though are they?
The question is do I think Cummings would over rule them? Definitely.
I can't believe Davis would Tweet what he's tweeted unless he thought there'd be some blow back on Cummings, they hate each other apparently.

Here's Lidingtons quote from the article:
“I’m not aware of any minister or special adviser, certainly not in Theresa May’s time, ever having been involved in the scientific advisory panels.”
These are senior tories lining up to question the validity of both Cummings presence at the meeting and his contribution. Something is going on.

 

[skybluetony176]

I didn’t respond to the original post attaching the article as i found it unclear/contradictory, (so wanted to wait for more info to come out first), for example they had comments from Sir King, who was quite rightly shocked and concerned about Cummings ‘being on the committee’...however, this has been denied by Downing Street

‘Late on Friday, Downing Street released a second statement. “It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are ‘on’ or members of Sage. Mr Cummings and Dr Warner have attended some Sage meetings and listen to some meetings now they are all virtual. Occasionally they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall,” a No 10 spokesman said’

That’s very different to being ‘on the committee’

From what the article indicates and from what I’ve read elsewhere they were in attendance/observing and asking questions...I presume to try to understand the science but I’m guessing

The two questions I would want answered

1) assuming they aren’t ‘on the committee’, was the scientific advice influenced by Cumming’s attendance

2) did Johnson only get feedback on SAGE meetings via Cummings or has he received it directly from SAGE and the scientists on the committee

ps one week we have the Sunday Times suggesting a lazy/complacent/uninterested approach to Covid-19 by the government in Feb/early March, the following week we have The Guardian suggesting the government were putting people on/influencing SAGE committee during that same period. You can see why people are getting a bit frustrating by the media

The media or the government? The government has quite deliberately chosen to be secretive about who is at/on SAGE. That opens them up for criticism and breeds speculation such as you’ve just highlighted. A strong government would go open book on it now to bring down the vail of mystery, a stronger government wouldn’t have been so secretive in the first place.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The end decisions aren't theirs though are they?
The question is do I think Cummings would over rule them? Definitely.
I can't believe Davis would Tweet what he's tweeted unless he thought there'd be some blow back on Cummings, they hate each other apparently.

Here's Lidingtons quote from the article:
“I’m not aware of any minister or special adviser, certainly not in Theresa May’s time, ever having been involved in the scientific advisory panels.”
These are senior tories lining up to question the validity of both Cummings presence at the meeting and his contribution. Something is going on.

As you’ve already highlighted though Clint, there are plenty of axes to grind including people feeling Cummings oversteps/overreaches his position (and want him put back in his box)

I would be shocked (and disgusted) if Cummings has overruled scientific advice (and then those same scientists have accepted it). Will await being proven wrong but I’ve not seen any evidence of this yet

 

[skybluetony176]

Do you really think people like Witty and Vallance (and the other scientists on the various committees) would go against their scientific beliefs because of someone like Cummings ?!

There are questions to be answered regarding Cummings attendance as I mention above but I can’t quite get the other stuff

Thing is you don’t know what they believe. In press conferences they’re clearly reading from a script, they may well be expressing their full beliefs in the meetings and then Cummings is deciding what they can and can’t say from those beliefs.

 

[chiefdave]

Do you really think people like Witty and Vallance (and the other scientists on the various committees) would go against their scientific beliefs because of someone like Cummings ?

They aren't the ones making the decisions. Witty is Chief Medical Adviser and Vallance is the Chief Scientific Adviser. The clue is in their titles - adviser.

 

[chiefdave]

I would be shocked (and disgusted) if Cummings has overruled scientific advice (and then those same scientists have accepted it). Will await being proven wrong but I’ve not seen any evidence of this yet

Well you could always check the minutes of the meetings
Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE)
Oh wait a minute, for some reason the recent meetings haven't been uploaded and the government are refusing to release them.

 

[skybluetony176]

As you’ve already highlighted though Clint, there are plenty of axes to grind including people feeling Cummings oversteps/overreaches his position (and want him put back in his box)

I would be shocked (and disgusted) if Cummings has overruled scientific advice (and then those same scientists have accepted it). Will await being proven wrong but I’ve not seen any evidence of this yet

I think you’re being naive Steve. Governments for decades tell us part of a story to fit their own mantra. It’s not the same as lying but it is deliberately keeping us in the dark or at least shade.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well you could always check the minutes of the meetings
Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE)
Oh wait a minute, for some reason the recent meetings haven't been uploaded and the government are refusing to release them.

There’s a backlog caused by a blocked Russia report. They’re just waiting on Dyno-rod to come out.

 

[clint van damme]

As you’ve already highlighted though Clint, there are plenty of axes to grind including people feeling Cummings oversteps/overreaches his position (and want him put back in his box)

I would be shocked (and disgusted) if Cummings has overruled scientific advice (and then those same scientists have accepted it). Will await being proven wrong but I’ve not seen any evidence of this yet

There isn't really any evidence as yet, but senior tories with an axe to grind pointing fingers at the meeting suggests there's something's amiss.
That may well not be the case.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think you’re being naive Steve. Governments for decades tell us part of a story to fit their own mantra. It’s not the same as lying but it is deliberately keeping us in the dark or at least shade.

Not naive at all. Just waiting for evidence Tony. I could also question many posters naivety in just accepting what they are reading without any critical assessment/analysis and acceptance of biases etc.

Dave - Also aware they are only advisors, the government has said they have followed scientific advice. Again maybe they haven’t but I’ve seen no evidence of this yet (I’m sure the scientists, who’s lifetime reputations are on the line, are unlikely to just accept being the fallguys, especially when we are talking about thousands of lives but maybe there is more on this to come)

ps just to be clear, I’m not trying to pick a fight on this. I’m just saying I’ll await proper evidence of interference before passing judgement. I honestly can’t see Cummings being able to ignore/overrule scientific advice but happy to be proved wrong (well, I won’t be happy as it would be a disgrace)

 

[chiefdave]

Also aware they are only advisors, the government has said they have followed scientific advice. Again maybe they haven’t but I’ve seen no evidence of this yet (I’m sure the scientists, who’s lifetime reputations are on the line, are unlikely to just accept being the fallguys, especially when we are talking about thousands of lives but maybe there is more on this to come)

We followed a different path to basically everyone else in the world which had scientists queuing up to question how the decisions were being made and requesting the data behind the decisions be released so they could analyse it themselves.

Now we've got the scientists who were in the meetings leaking details to the press, including saying that the home nations chief scientific advisors are only allowed observer status while Cummings and Warner are active participants. Sir David King, a past member of SAGE has said “If you are giving science advice, your advice should be free of any political bias, that is just so critically important.” and others have said they can not recall a previous time government advisors were at meetings.

What evidence are you waiting for, Johnson to get up in the daily briefing and say they've been ignoring the science?

 

[CCFCSteve]

We followed a different path to basically everyone else in the world which had scientists queuing up to question how the decisions were being made and requesting the data behind the decisions be released so they could analyse it themselves.

Now we've got the scientists who were in the meetings leaking details to the press, including saying that the home nations chief scientific advisors are only allowed observer status while Cummings and Warner are active participants. Sir David King, a past member of SAGE has said “If you are giving science advice, your advice should be free of any political bias, that is just so critically important.” and others have said they can not recall a previous time government advisors were at meetings.

What evidence are you waiting for, Johnson to get up in the daily briefing and say they've been ignoring the science?

No, I’d want one (or more) of the scientists on the committee to say that the government ignored the scientific advice

I’ve also highlighted the two questions I’d want answering regarding Cummings attendance.

As I highlighted earlier Sir King also mentioned he was shocked to hear Cummings was ‘on the committee’ which has been refuted

ps I’m not going to get back into the whole timeline around various countries actions, however, I do know that we accelerated our restrictions/measures following the imperial college report (who advise the government).

 

[tisza]

Across the world, face masks are becoming mandatory. Why not in the UK? | Babak Javid

Mandatory here but not being enforced or obeyed for some reason. Because it was decreed by mayor of Budapest (opposition party) apparently govt telling police to ignore it. Only around half the people obeying it - not a big jump on those that were doing it before the Decree.

 

[Sick Boy]

Mandatory here but not being enforced or obeyed for some reason. Because it was decreed by mayor of Budapest (opposition party) apparently govt telling police to ignore it. Only around half the people obeying it - not a big jump on those that were doing it before the Decree.

In Veneto it’s mandatory to wear mask and gloves on public and it’s being obeyed from what I’ve seen, the gloves is a weird one though because they can pick up germs more easily and you then bring them into the home.

 

[Astute]

In Veneto it’s mandatory to wear mask and gloves on public and it’s being obeyed from what I’ve seen, the gloves is a weird one though because they can pick up Germans more easily and you then bring them into the home.

I'll try that approach next time I meet a German bird.

 

[Sick Boy]

HAHA!

 

[Flying Fokker]

Priti Patel says shoplifting is down...

 

[chiefdave]

Priti Patel says shoplifting is down...

I hope you’re joking, I fear you’re not.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Nope...

 

[skybluetony176]

Deaths up, shoplifting down. Every cloud.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So Home Office policy to solve crime from now on will be get rid of everyone. No people = no crime. Easy when you think about it.

 

[Ian1779]

Priti Patel says shoplifting is down...

Is she sure? Her grasp of numbers is not the greatest....

EDIT: I’ve checked - she said it was down seven and twelvty percent to eleventy and three.

 

[The coventrian]

Where are the F Pace and E Pace built?

Castle Brom and Austria.

 

[The coventrian]

Get help

Seriously get help

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Cool story David.

 

[Grendel]

Castle Brom and Austria.

Austria is opening with Solihull isn’t it?

 

[Grendel]

Is this the most ridiculous thing ever

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is this the most ridiculous thing ever

This is the party that stated one of their achievements in the coalition was the 5p carrier bag charge

 

[skyblueheaven]

Castle Brom and Austria.

F pace is built at Solihull, at your place..the F type is built at castle brom, correct me if I'm wrong.