Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (143 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

There's been a huge debate on this so I think common sense is required. Whilst masks can help prevent the spread you can still very easily pick up the virus despite wearing one. E.g. If someone coughs in your proximity or when taking it off after going outside. The risk is lessened but it still remains.

So, the article Grendal posted is still valid and countless scientists have confirmed that face masks may spark a false sense of confidence if not used in conjunction with social distancing where possible.

The comment I replied to was saying WHO said masks were pointless. They don’t.

Whether they are perfect or whether behavioural science is a respectable discipline are different questions entirely.

 

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[Grendel]

Your argument isn't relevant - like I said use your common sense. Wearing masks won't guarantee you not catching the virus, they simply minimise the risk of transmission. If social distancing is not actioned where possible in conjunction with wearing them then you can see why some have claimed their use only goes so far. Especially as you can catch Covid through your eyes.

This is where they need to be careful when opening up public transport to all. As masks won't be enough to stop the spread on packed trains/tubes.

Exactly - is the suggestion we can all go back to normal life with a mask? Packed tubes, packed sports stadia, people taking them off to eat then putting them on again, people sneezing and coughing thinking they will be fine as they’ve got a ill fitting mask on to go out?

Sounds great

 

[wingy]

How one man spread coronavirus to NINE other people on his bus | Daily Mail Online

 

[shmmeee]

Your argument isn't relevant - like I said use your common sense. Wearing masks won't guarantee you not catching the virus, they simply minimise the risk of transmission. If social distancing is not actioned where possible in conjunction with wearing them then you can see why some have claimed their use only goes so far. Especially as you can catch Covid through your eyes.

This is where they need to be careful when opening up public transport to all. As masks won't be enough to stop the spread on packed trains/tubes.

Masks will obviously slow the spread. The counter arguments to what you’ve said are: they serve as a visual reminder of the situation, they help people not touch their mouths out of habit, and they prevent asymptomatic people spreading it unknowingly.

We aren’t looking for perfect. We are looking for multiple ways to slow the spread. Masks are such an obvious solution which is why Asian countries that have experienced pandemics use them extensively.

For some reason the edgelords on the internet have latched onto them for their latest “ackshually” but it’s fairly obvious why they’re recommended by several governments. The WHO has to advise in an environment where some countries have limited PPE supplies and don’t want panic buying.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

The comment I replied to was saying WHO said masks were pointless. They don’t.

Whether they are perfect or whether behavioural science is a respectable discipline are different questions entirely.

They're certainly not pointless otherwise by that logic the NHS workers might as well just care for patients in the nude and save everyone the trouble.

But they're only as useful as the person who wears them. Social distancing still needs to be actioned whilst wearing masks otherwise their usefulness lessens and as such the risk rises.

This is where I completely agree with scientists and medical practitioners who fear that masks may give off a false sense of security to people.

 

[Grendel]

Masks useless for you

Classic

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Masks will obviously slow the spread. The counter arguments to what you’ve said are: they serve as a visual reminder of the situation, they help people not touch their mouths out of habit, and they prevent asymptomatic people spreading it unknowingly.

We aren’t looking for perfect. We are looking for multiple ways to slow the spread. Masks are such an obvious solution which is why Asian countries that have experienced pandemics use them extensively.

For some reason the edgelords on the internet have latched onto them for their latest “ackshually” but it’s fairly obvious why they’re recommended by several governments. The WHO has to advise in an environment where some countries have limited PPE supplies and don’t want panic buying.

The problem is that there is no longer any choice about opening things up, if it goes on much longer then the economy will be completely destroyed. Its not a matter of "yes, its all good now, we can open up", its "we have no option, what can we do to try and minimise the damage".

Masks aren't being touted as a way to solve the problem, they are to try and keep the number of deaths & infections as low as possible when lockdown is phased out. Because they've made such a disaster of everything so far they have to try anything to avoid a huge second wave, which is coming as soon as this mythical exit plan is rolled out.

 

[skybluetony176]

Your argument isn't relevant - like I said use your common sense. Wearing masks won't guarantee you not catching the virus, they simply minimise the risk of transmission. If social distancing is not actioned where possible in conjunction with wearing them then you can see why some have claimed their use only goes so far. Especially as you can catch Covid through your eyes.

This is where they need to be careful when opening up public transport to all. As masks won't be enough to stop the spread on packed trains/tubes.

It’s not just about catching though it’s about spreading. Just last week the latest modelling on coughing and sneezing in confined spaces came out. If you have it but not yet presenting symptoms and are in a supermarket, cough and/or sneeze you don’t just contaminate the isle you’re in (and by a greater distance than 2 meters by the way) you also contaminate the isles either side of the one you’re in. Unless you’re wearing a face masks to contain it. Without a face mask you can quite easily pass it on to four people who are social distancing from you without a mask. The WHO never said what Grendull said they said when you read the articles that he himself posted, couple that with this being a fast moving situation where advice is changing day to day let alone week to week and even those articles that don’t say what he says they say are out of date advice. I suspect when the world wide demand for face masks has caught up the WHO advice will change on wearing them as (as you say) part of a bigger picture. No one has said masks on their own is the answer, it’s quite clearly one piece of a bigger puzzle in dealing with this but by the same token no one has said that wearing masks is a complete waste of time like Grendull claims.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

Masks will obviously slow the spread. The counter arguments to what you’ve said are: they serve as a visual reminder of the situation, they help people not touch their mouths out of habit, and they prevent asymptomatic people spreading it unknowingly.

We aren’t looking for perfect. We are looking for multiple ways to slow the spread. Masks are such an obvious solution which is why Asian countries that have experienced pandemics use them extensively.

For some reason the edgelords on the internet have latched onto them for their latest “ackshually” but it’s fairly obvious why they’re recommended by several governments. The WHO has to advise in an environment where some countries have limited PPE supplies and don’t want panic buying.

But I could counter your counter argument and claim they could give people a false sense of security and invite people to think that it's okay to gather in groups when it almost certainly isn't until a vaccine is found and distributed accordingly.

Masks are almost certainly necessary but they need to be used in the correct manner otherwise the initial argument is justified. This is shown in cases such as in Japan where despite people using them extensively throughout the pandemic, they have experienced second outbreaks after lifting their lockdown. Like I said they need to be used in conjunction with social distancing otherwise their usefulness is rendered null and void.

 

[Grendel]

It’s not just about catching though it’s about spreading. Just last week the latest modelling on coughing and sneezing in confined spaces came out. If you have it but not yet presenting symptoms and are in a supermarket, cough and/or sneeze you don’t just contaminate the isle you’re in (and by a greater distance than 2 meters by the way) you also contaminate the isles either side of the one you’re in. Unless you’re wearing a face masks to contain it. Without a face mask you can quite easily pass it on to four people who are social distancing from you without a mask. The WHO never said what Grendull said they said when you read the articles that he himself posted, couple that with this being a fast moving situation where advice is changing day to day let alone week to week and even those articles that don’t say what he says they say are out of date advice. I suspect when the world wide demand for face masks has caught up the WHO advice will change on wearing them as (as you say) part of a bigger picture. No one has said masks on their own is the answer, it’s quite clearly one piece of a bigger puzzle in dealing with this but by the same token no one has said that wearing masks is a complete waste of time like Grendull claims.

Ive said it encourages behaviours that will make situations worse - lovely try though - WHO comments that healthy people need not wear them and those with a cough should. People with a cough should self isolate - the comments from Smith he confirmed and stood by yesterday on TV. Shall I go with a senior virologist from Cambridge or Tony tough call

 

[Grendel]

The problem is that there is no longer any choice about opening things up, if it goes on much longer then the economy will be completely destroyed. Its not a matter of "yes, its all good now, we can open up", its "we have no option, what can we do to try and minimise the damage".

Masks aren't being touted as a way to solve the problem, they are to try and keep the number of deaths & infections as low as possible when lockdown is phased out. Because they've made such a disaster of everything so far they have to try anything to avoid a huge second wave, which is coming as soon as this mythical exit plan is rolled out.

I agree on the economy bit though some experts think it will be a piece of piss and we can lockdown for 6 years if we have to

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

It’s not just about catching though it’s about spreading. Just last week the latest modelling on coughing and sneezing in confined spaces came out. If you have it but not yet presenting symptoms and are in a supermarket, cough and/or sneeze you don’t just contaminate the isle you’re in (and by a greater distance than 2 meters by the way) you also contaminate the isles either side of the one you’re in. Unless you’re wearing a face masks to contain it. Without a face mask you can quite easily pass it on to four people who are social distancing from you without a mask. The WHO never said what Grendull said they said when you read the articles that he himself posted, couple that with this being a fast moving situation where advice is changing day to day let alone week to week and even those articles that don’t say what he says they say are out of date advice. I suspect when the world wide demand for face masks has caught up the WHO advice will change on wearing them as (as you say) part of a bigger picture. No one has said masks on their own is the answer, it’s quite clearly one piece of a bigger puzzle in dealing with this but by the same token no one has said that wearing masks is a complete waste of time like Grendull claims.

That's their primary use and where they're considered most effective, by containing the virus if you have it. Which is why wearing them should be mandatory when going outside as there are people as you say are asymptomatic or are actually stupid enough to go out in public before the incubation period cut off point despite having it because they think they feel well enough.

To be fair they did at the start - even Chris Whitty more or less claimed they didn't work with regards to stopping the contraction of the virus - but like you said the information is changing weekly if not daily so what was said last month may not be relevant or even at all accurate now.

 

[skybluetony176]

The WHO say they are pointless don’t they?

 

[Grendel]

Amazing how following the changing science which the government has done all along seems in vogue today

Seems the government approach of following the changing science is gaining support

 

[skybluetony176]

That's their primary use and where they're considered most effective, by containing the virus if you have it. Which is why wearing them should be mandatory when going outside as there are people as you say are asymptomatic or are actually stupid enough to go out in public before the incubation period cut off point despite having it because they think they feel well enough.

To be fair they did at the start - even Chris Whitty more or less claimed they didn't work with regards to stopping the contraction of the virus - but like you said the information is changing weekly if not daily so what was said last month may not be relevant or even at all accurate now.

That depends on how you define stopping you catching it. If everyone wears masks in public your chances of coming into contact with the pathogen will be greatly reduced. You reduce the chance of coming into contact you reduce the chance of becoming infected. It’s very simple maths.

 

[skybluetony176]

Amazing how following the changing science which the government has done all along seems in vogue today

Seems the government approach of following the changing science is gaining support

The government has done it at least two weeks later than they should have though. So actually it’s the other way around it seems that the common sense approach of following scientific advice is catching on with the government.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

That depends on how you define stopping you catching it. If everyone wears masks in public your chances of coming into contact with the pathogen will be greatly reduced. You reduce the chance of coming into contact you reduce the chance of becoming infected. It’s very simple maths.

That's what I'm saying though. If everyone wears them but social distancing isn't adhered to then the chances of coming into contact with the virus aren't greatly reduced. They'll certainly help but in many ways they're just delaying the inevitable of a second outbreak - which is what has essentially happened in Japan.

But as you and I have said if everyone wears the masks AND adheres to social distancing where possible then the chances of coming into contact with the virus IS greatly reduced. It's pretty simple as you say, guidelines need to be implemented in order to maximise their effectiveness though.

 

[shmmeee]

Google executive took part in Sage meeting, tech firm confirms

Actually don’t mind this. But I’m a total Hassabis fan boy. Deep Mind have done a lot of work with the NHS and it’s a passion for him but this Guardian article makes out it’s just “random tech bro” thing. I really hate the irrational tech hatred on some bits of the left.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Germany R rate on the way down again then despite there being all the fuss about it going up slightly for 1 day......media are vermin

 

[Nick]

Your argument isn't relevant - like I said use your common sense. Wearing masks won't guarantee you not catching the virus, they simply minimise the risk of transmission. If social distancing is not actioned where possible in conjunction with wearing them then you can see why some have claimed their use only goes so far. Especially as you can catch Covid through your eyes.

This is where they need to be careful when opening up public transport to all. As masks won't be enough to stop the spread on packed trains/tubes.

Thats why you wear swimming goggles.

Get the zoggs out.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

USA also hopefuls of a vaccine by January according to Fauci

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

Thats why you wear swimming goggles.

Get the zoggs out.

You joke....but I can almost guarantee at least one person will resort to this

 

[skybluetony176]

That's what I'm saying though. If everyone wears them but social distancing isn't adhered to then the chances of coming into contact with the virus aren't greatly reduced. They'll certainly help but in many ways they're just delaying the inevitable of a second outbreak - which is what has essentially happened in Japan.

But as you and I have said if everyone wears the masks AND adheres to social distancing where possible then the chances of coming into contact with the virus IS greatly reduced. It's pretty simple as you say, guidelines need to be implemented in order to maximise their effectiveness.

Not disagreeing with you. Social distancing is important. I’m still at work at the moment and have to come into contact with people and at least two or three times a week I’m either backing away from people or telling them to back away and quite often they look at me as if I’m the one being a dick. At times I have to work in an office that I share with someone else, it’s a fairly large office so we’ve been able to move desks 2 meters apart along with other things like only one in the office at any time where possible but the latest modelling shows we’re not doing enough without masks as the virus can linger in the air and on surfaces from a cough or sneeze. The other person doesn’t even need to be in the office at the time for me to catch it from them. I have a feeling that wearing masks outside of the home and social distancing will become good manners and it’s morons who latch onto things like the WHO said they’re a waste of time because they read it on some cranks Twitter feed, misleading headline while ignoring the details in the article, on Facebook or wherever will be considered the rudest people in society.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

Not disagreeing with you. Social distancing is important. I’m still at work at the moment and have to come into contact with people and at least two or three times a week I’m either backing away from people or telling them to back away and quite often they look at me as if I’m the one being a dick. At times I have to work in an office that I share with someone else, it’s a fairly large office so we’ve been able to move desks 2 meters apart along with other things like only one in the office at any time where possible but the latest modelling shows we’re not doing enough without masks as the virus can linger in the air and on surfaces. I have a feeling that wearing masks outside of the home and social distancing will become good manners and it’s morons who latch onto things like the WHO said they’re a waste of time because they read it on some cranks Twitter feed, misleading headline while ignoring the details in the article, on Facebook or wherever will be considered the rudest people in society.

That's why IMO it should be enforced. Germany have bought in punishments for not wearing face masks (apparently up to €10,000) if you are caught without a mask on in public.

Our government need to find a backbone and implement similar laws / punishments with regards to wearing face masks otherwise people simply won't wear them consistently enough.

They'll flount the rules as they are doing now with quarantine.

 

[clint van damme]

That's why IMO it should be enforced. Germany have bought in punishments for not wearing face masks (apparently up to €10,000) if you are caught without a mask on in public.

Our government need to find a backbone and implement similar laws / punishments with regards to wearing face masks otherwise people simply won't wear them consistently enough.

They'll flount the rules as they are doing now with quarantine.

They'd have to make sure there's enough to go found first who h is probably beyond them.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

USA also hopefuls of a vaccine by January according to Fauci

Yes, as soon as they work out how to combine bleach & rat poison you'll see it in Target right next to the anti COVID automatic weapons.

 

[Nick]

You joke....but I can almost guarantee at least one person will resort to this

I already have, found them in my boot and put them on just to annoy my daughter.

I couldn't find her diving ones with the snorkel, they would have been funnier.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I agree on the economy bit though some experts think it will be a piece of piss and we can lockdown for 6 years if we have to

Some could (I could), but manufacturing etc, that needs to start soon otherwise the effects will be devastating right along the supply chain, I already know of several companies that have closed the doors forever as they see no way of getting through this, they'd rather just walk away. They had cash to walk away with though, not every company is that lucky.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Not sure if the government are as confident in the peak being passed as they claim.

Had 85,000 body bags flown into BHX this week over 2 flights, expecting another 2 over next few days, and one with gowns.

5 flights with body bags for LTN as well.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

USA also hopefuls of a vaccine by January according to Fauci

Opinion | How Long Will a Vaccine Really Take?

It's a game of opinions Dom. Until there's a breakthrough it's all speculation.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Not sure if the government are as confident in the peak being passed as they claim.

Had 85,000 boby bags flown into BHX this week over 2 flights, expecting another 2 over next few days, and one with gowns.

5 flights with body bags for LTN as well.

They are saying we're past the peak because they need to open up the economy. We are still miles away from the end of this, a cursory look at the figures is enough to tell you that. We are being told these things to help us ease back into going to work. Hence the Nightingale hospitals, ready for the 'second wave'

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Opinion | How Long Will a Vaccine Really Take?

It's a game of opinions Dom. Until there's a breakthrough it's all speculation.

I really hope they test it properly too. Would rather it be slightly later, then botched in the race to be first. Usually I'd be entirely confident, but with Trump about, I'm rather less so!

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

They'd have to make sure there's enough to go found first who h is probably beyond them.

True - hardly comforting when they can't even appropriately distribute enough PPE to the NHS let alone an entire country.

 

[Nick]

Had 85,000 boby bags flown into BHX this week over 2 flights

Aren't they bras?

 

[skybluetony176]

That's why IMO it should be enforced. Germany have bought in punishments for not wearing face masks (apparently up to €10,000) if you are caught without a mask on in public.

Our government need to find a backbone and implement similar laws / punishments with regards to wearing face masks otherwise people simply won't wear them consistently enough.

They'll flount the rules as they are doing now with quarantine.

Definitely not disagreeing with you there on any account.