Do you want to discuss boring politics? (84 Viewers)

[wingy]

Another fine example of trickle down economics.

The amount chief execs earn has gone from 20 times the average worker in the 80s to now be 120 times. BBC saying they have to work 34 hours to beat the median average pay.

FTSE 100 chief executives 'earn average salary within 3 days'

FTSE 100 chiefs will by Wednesday have earned more this year than the average worker's annual wage.

www.bbc.co.uk

Also in the news the ONS have said they have persistently underestimated the extent of income inequality in the UK and it is at least 2.4% higher than official figures.

Thanks Dave

I've always considered anecdotally looking back to the mid seventies we used to maintain a medium sized engineering companies premises and the home of the company owner.
He at the time lived in a modern 4bed
Next to the A45 opposite the styvichale arms and the garage..
Took caravan holiday's etc.
I wonder what the rewards would bring for running that type of operation now?

 

---

[fernandopartridge]

Thanks Dave

I've always considered anecdotally looking back to the mid seventies we used to maintain a medium sized engineering companies premises and the home of the company owner.
He at the time lived in a modern 4bed
Next to the A45 opposite the styvichale arms and the garage..
Took caravan holiday's etc.
I wonder what the rewards would bring for running that type of operation now?

The 70s was when the gap between the rich and poor closed to its smallest extent. Is it any wonder that super rich press barons and Tories talk about it being dark times.

 

[Skybluefaz]

 

[chiefdave]

How can an advisor to the chancellor be appointed to negotiate with the government over the license fee?

His new role will see him lead negotiations with the government over the future of the licence fee.

He used to be Sunak's boss, has been an advisor to Sunak and also to Johnson and is a Conservative party donor. Lets hope he maintains political independence in this new role.

An adviser to Rishi Sunak and former Goldman Sachs banker is set to be installed as the new chairman of the BBC, stepping into a key role at the top of the corporation as it faces a series of critical debates on its future.

Richard Sharp, who has also held a series of roles within the arts establishment and was an adviser to Boris Johnson when he was mayor of London, was considered the frontrunner for the £180,000-a-year post. His appointment is expected to be announced on Thursday.

Sharp, 64, whose appointment was first reported by Sky News, was once Sunak’s boss at Goldman Sachs and has been an unpaid adviser on the economic response to coronavirus over the last year. The multimillionaire has also been a major donor to the Conservative party, giving more than £400,000 from 2001-2010 and £4,600 since then.

 

[clint van damme]

Is it me or are centrists saying Starmer owned Johnson at PMQs wide of the mark?
Johnson even.joked that Marcus Rashford was a better leader of the opposition. I thought it was poor from Starmer.

I though Blackford had him more rattled as Johnson descended into waffling which is a sure sign he's under pressure.

 

[skybluetony176]

Is it me or are centrists saying Starmer owned Johnson at PMQs wide of the mark?
Johnson even.joked that Marcus Rashford was a better leader of the opposition. I thought it was poor from Starmer.

I though Blackford had him more rattled as Johnson descended into waffling which is a sure sign he's under pressure.

I thought Boris tripped himself up with the Rashford line and Starmers was waiting and prepared for it coming back with the spreadsheet

Still not personally sold on Starmer but thought it was one of his better PMQ’s. Certainly one of Boris’ worse not least because as you point out Blackford rattled him too.

 

[Ian1779]

I thought Boris tripped himself up with the Rashford line and Starmers was waiting and prepared for it coming back with the spreadsheet

Still not personally sold on Starmer but thought it was one of his better PMQ’s. Certainly one of Boris’ worse not least because as you point out Blackford rattled him too.

Johnson and May both were always boosted by the baying crowds in the background. Take them away and you expose their limitations. The Tories have been weak and behind all the other parties at PMQ’s since Cameron left - despite us being told different.

 

[clint van damme]

I thought Boris tripped himself up with the Rashford line and Starmers was waiting and prepared for it coming back with the spreadsheet

Still not personally sold on Starmer but thought it was one of his better PMQ’s. Certainly one of Boris’ worse not least because as you point out Blackford rattled him too.

I think your answer sums it up for me, 'Starmer was waiting with a spreadsheet!
He should be roasting Johnson at the minute.
I really can't understand people who back Starmer being happy with that performance.

Missed another open goal on the food parcel thing not asking where the O the £25 quid is going as well.

 

[chiefdave]

Is it me or are centrists saying Starmer owned Johnson at PMQs wide of the mark?
Johnson even.joked that Marcus Rashford was a better leader of the opposition. I thought it was poor from Starmer.

Johnson is rubbish at PMQs without the back benchers cheering him on. Having said that I find Starmer disappointing, he seems to struggle to land a blow. 'armed with a spreadsheet' sums it up. Thats all well and good and plays well with his supporters but doesn't cut across with the general public who aren't watching and analysing PMQs, which is the vast majority of people.

Lets be honest the only thing that has cut through from PMQs in recent months is Captain Hindsight. Might not be accurate but its stuck in people minds.

Is quite funny how its same shit different day. Swap Corbyn for Starmer and the left for centrists and its exactly the same. Busy congratulating themselves on a great performance by their preferred leader but a complete head in the sand attitude to how it is being seen by the wider public.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Is it me or are centrists saying Starmer owned Johnson at PMQs wide of the mark?
Johnson even.joked that Marcus Rashford was a better leader of the opposition. I thought it was poor from Starmer.

I though Blackford had him more rattled as Johnson descended into waffling which is a sure sign he's under pressure.

There was a programme about Thatcher on not so long ago, said how when she became leader of the opposition, she struggled to assert herself as she was too precise, actually going for detail rather than the grandstanding. After a while she learned, and got lessons to improve her delivery, and go for the sweeping blows rather than the specifics. I feel Starmer needs to do similar - you can see why he'd be a fine lawyer, he manages to set the trap beautifully, and catch his prey but... it's as much about perception, and people don't notice that among the theatre.

 

[clint van damme]

There was a programme about Thatcher on not so long ago, said how when she became leader of the opposition, she struggled to assert herself as she was too precise, actually going for detail rather than the grandstanding. After a while she learned, and got lessons to improve her delivery, and go for the sweeping blows rather than the specifics. I feel Starmer needs to do similar - you can see why he'd be a fine lawyer, he manages to set the trap beautifully, and catch his prey but... it's as much about perception, and people don't notice that among the theatre.

I honestly believe he deliberately doesn't want to join the dots that link the Tories to their corporate chums and build a picture of what's been going on with regard to some of the contract awards we've seen recently.

That's just not good enough as far as I'm concerned.
Even tory lackeys the tax payers alliance have been critical so it must be bad.

 

[Ian1779]

I’m looking forward to the ‘minimally different governance’ mugs that will be rolled out in the next election campaign.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Huawei patent mentions use of Uighur-spotting tech

The company denies selling technology that can identify the ethnic group and plans to reword the patent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hmmm.....nothing sinister mind you.....just like their QR code plan.....move along.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I’m looking forward to the ‘minimally different governance’ mugs that will be rolled out in the next election campaign.

"we'll cap the profits private companies can make on provision of piss poor meals for poor kids"

 

[Grendel]

Johnson and May both were always boosted by the baying crowds in the background. Take them away and you expose their limitations. The Tories have been weak and behind all the other parties at PMQ’s since Cameron left - despite us being told different.

It hardly makes much difference. Hague used to make Blair look a laughing stock a lot of the time. Starmer has no sense of theatre

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It hardly makes much difference. Hague used to make Blair look a laughing stock a lot of the time. Starmer has no sense of theatre

Hague was excellent. As an aside, he probably deserved another crack as leader, at a more appropriate time really. He was unlucky to be there when Blair was at his peak, and pre-Iraq. Did allow himself to be hijacked by the mentalists in his party himself mind you.

 

[shmmeee]

Literally no one gives a fuck about this stuff. That’s why election campaigns can make such a difference, for a majority of voters it’s when they actually start forming opinions.

Generally the pandemic has given a lot of cover to the Tories. Daily press briefings, chancellor handing out stacks of cash, the general feeling they’re doing their best bless them. Will be interesting to see what happens when things get back to normal.

This should worry people in Labour though:Does Keir Starmer looks like a Prime Minister in waiting?

 

[clint van damme]

Literally no one gives a fuck about this stuff. That’s why election campaigns can make such a difference, for a majority of voters it’s when they actually start forming opinions.

Generally the pandemic has given a lot of cover to the Tories. Daily press briefings, chancellor handing out stacks of cash, the general feeling they’re doing their best bless them. Will be interesting to see what happens when things get back to normal.

This should worry people in Labour though:Does Keir Starmer looks like a Prime Minister in waiting?

It's all part of the same problem.
Some, like me,.worry about the constant missing of open goals.
Some won't like his douness or lack of charisma but it all stacks up against his suitability.
If you perform as badly as he did today against a PM whose overseen tens of thousands of deaths in a pandemic then you've got a problem.
Letting Johnson steal the show with his Rashford gag was shocking

 

[shmmeee]

It's all part of the same problem.
Some, like me,.worry about the constant missing of open goals.
Some won't like his douness or lack of charisma but it all stacks up against his suitability.
If you perform as badly as he did today against a PM whose overseen tens of thousands of deaths in a pandemic then you've got a problem.
Letting Johnson steal the show with his Rashford gag was shocking

Filter bubbles and all that but weirdly I’d seen a lot of people praising him in PMQs today, though also saying he needs more “oomph”.

Let’s be honest here, the problem is we have no credible leadership material. I voted Nandy but for policy not because I thought she’d be a great leader. I can’t think of anyone with any charisma in the PLP.

I’m starting to think Starmer will be a Kinnock type. Valiant defeat, improves the image of the party and wins back enough seats to make the next persons job easier.

 

[clint van damme]

Filter bubbles and all that but weirdly I’d seen a lot of people praising him in PMQs today, though also saying he needs more “oomph”.

Let’s be honest here, the problem is we have no credible leadership material. I voted Nandy but for policy not because I thought she’d be a great leader. I can’t think of anyone with any charisma in the PLP.

I’m starting to think Starmer will be a Kinnock type. Valiant defeat, improves the image of the party and wins back enough seats to make the next persons job easier.

I honestly don't know how anyone can praise that performance today. That amazes me.
As I said earlier, you only have to listen to how Johnson responded to Blackford to tell the Scot had him far more rattled and he was on about fucking fish, Starmer had 100k deaths to use as a stick to beat him with.

The other problem Starmer has is there's now a split among the centrists so where as Corbyn had two factions to deal with hes got three. That's probably a bit of an exaggeration but there's definitely a faction who"ve turned against him over Brexit.
The problem Labour has is if they try and get rid of Starmer it's a massive feather in Johnson's cap and lends him some credibly that couldn't be less deserved.

Starmer has to start really defining what he stands for a sticking to it in my opinion.
For example if he'd stood by schools being shut in autumn he'd really have something to go at Johnson with now.

Instead he was so worried about what the Tory press would say he went in harder than Johnson on the keep them open mantra and now he looks complicit in it.
He needs to start taking a few risks and stop worrying what the mail and sun are saying about him.

 

[Ian1779]

I honestly don't know how anyone can praise that performance today. That amazes me.
As I said earlier, you only have to listen to how Johnson responded to Blackford to tell the Scot had him far more rattled and he was on about fucking fish, Starmer had 100k deaths to use as a stick to beat him with.

The other problem Starmer has is there's now a split among the centrists so where as Corbyn had two factions to deal with hes got three. That's probably a bit of an exaggeration but there's definitely a faction who"ve turned against him over Brexit.
The problem Labour has is if they try and get rid of Starmer it's a massive feather in Johnson's cap and lends him some credibly that couldn't be less deserved.

Starmer has to start really defining what he stands for a sticking to it in my opinion.
For example if he'd stood by schools being shut in autumn he'd really have something to go at Johnson with now.

Instead he was so worried about what the Tory press would say he went in harder than Johnson on the keep them open mantra and now he looks complicit in it.
He needs to start taking a few risks and stop worrying what the mail and sun are saying about him.

I don’t actually think it’s that big a job to bring some unity back to the party to be honest... he just needs to show some contrition and put his hands up.

He fucked up on the PV thing at GE19. So come out and own it - apologise and say so. It would even begin to explain the rationale for his Brexit vote approach.

He got it wrong on schools, but you could argue it was with the best of intentions. So say that, say you should have listened to the Unions and been on their side.

He ran on a set of pledges that would be more than reasonable for most ‘lefties’ - so why the urge to pull back on nearly every one. Why is he sending his shadow chancellor out to talk about ‘balancing this books’ when we are still in the middle of a pandemic shitshow. Even if it doesn’t mean austerity people have heard exactly the same lines 10/11 years ago and they remember what happened then.

And bring some ideas to the table or at least 1 to really drive home to people. Make it your central motif if you like.
‘Broadband communism’ was mocked -but it’s needed more than ever now... it’s OK to acknowledge that the guy before did have SOME good ideas you can take forward and build on.

 

[shmmeee]

I don’t actually think it’s that big a job to bring some unity back to the party to be honest... he just needs to show some contrition and put his hands up.

He fucked up on the PV thing at GE19. So come out and own it - apologise and say so. It would even begin to explain the rationale for his Brexit vote approach.

He got it wrong on schools, but you could argue it was with the best of intentions. So say that, say you should have listened to the Unions and been on their side.

He ran on a set of pledges that would be more than reasonable for most ‘lefties’ - so why the urge to pull back on nearly every one. Why is he sending his shadow chancellor out to talk about ‘balancing this books’ when we are still in the middle of a pandemic shitshow. Even if it doesn’t mean austerity people have heard exactly the same lines 10/11 years ago and they remember what happened then.

And bring some ideas to the table or at least 1 to really drive home to people. Make it your central motif if you like.
‘Broadband communism’ was mocked -but it’s needed more than ever now... it’s OK to acknowledge that the guy before did have SOME good ideas you can take forward and build on.

Four years from an election is not the time for policy. Not at all. Just hands endless ammo to your opponents for no actual benefit.

The next couple of years are still about detoxifying the brand, and that means as much distance from Corbyn as possible, and moving to take back lost ground with social Conservatives.

Fact is if the base are upset he’s probably doing the right thing. Jumping around shouting “Corbyn was right” will undo all the work he did last year.

Said it before and I’ll say it again. Corbyn has meant that openly left wing policy is off the table for a while. That’s what happens when you tie all your policy loudly to someone the public hate.

 

[clint van damme]

Four years from an election is not the time for policy. Not at all. Just hands endless ammo to your opponents for no actual benefit.

The next couple of years are still about detoxifying the brand, and that means as much distance from Corbyn as possible, and moving to take back lost ground with social Conservatives.

Fact is if the base are upset he’s probably doing the right thing. Jumping around shouting “Corbyn was right” will undo all the work he did last year.

Said it before and I’ll say it again. Corbyn has meant that openly left wing policy is off the table for a while. That’s what happens when you tie all your policy loudly to someone the public hate.

I don't buy it. Trying to blame Corbyn for the current poor showing is like when the Tories tried to blame Gordon Brown for the economy ten years down the line.
Now may not be the time for policy but it is time for showing some intent.

With regard yo Ian's post, although it appeals to me it is very much about offering olive branches to the left and it has to be about appalling to all wings so I can see your point there.

But the base being upset isn't a good thing. Upsetting the Tories is what he should be doing.
And given the last year any half competent politician should be able to do that even if they march into the house in a Corbyn t shirt singing bandiera rossa

 

[shmmeee]

I don't buy it. Trying to blame Corbyn for the current poor showing is like when the Tories tried to blame Gordon Brown for the economy ten years down the line.
Now may not be the time for policy but it is time for showing some intent.

With regard yo Ian's post, although it appeals to me it is very much about offering olive branches to the left and it has to be about appalling to all wings so I can see your point there.

But the base being upset isn't a good thing. Upsetting the Tories is what he should be doing.
And given the last year any half competent politician should be able to do that even if they march into the house in a Corbyn t shirt singing bandiera rossa

Im not blaming Corbyn, I’m pointing out that there was only one way out of the hole he left us in and that was distancing ourselves from Corbyn. He was that bad.

Am I happy with where we are? Not really, though until the last month the progress has been good.

But it is weird times. Most governments in crisis hold support, Brexit is a week old, that 40% of Tory support can’t last forever. So I’m not ready to throw him out and appoint Richard Burgon just yet.

 

[clint van damme]

Im not blaming Corbyn, I’m pointing out that there was only one way out of the hole he left us in and that was distancing ourselves from Corbyn. He was that bad.

Am I happy with where we are? Not really, though until the last month the progress has been good.

But it is weird times. Most governments in crisis hold support, Brexit is a week old, that 40% of Tory support can’t last forever. So I’m not ready to throw him out and appoint Richard Burgon just yet.

He can't be thrown out, see my earlier post.
For Johnson to see him off would be disastrous for the party unless Johnson goes and he can be hooked at the same time.
But he really needs to up his game. Remember, it's not just the left who see him as a Tory enabler, it's now a large number of centrists as well. That's not a good image for the leader of the Labour party.

 

[Ian1779]

Im not blaming Corbyn, I’m pointing out that there was only one way out of the hole he left us in and that was distancing ourselves from Corbyn. He was that bad.

Am I happy with where we are? Not really, though until the last month the progress has been good.

But it is weird times. Most governments in crisis hold support, Brexit is a week old, that 40% of Tory support can’t last forever. So I’m not ready to throw him out and appoint Richard Burgon just yet.

Can’t have been that bad - still got 10m votes which was more than Brown and then Miliband.

Setting clear distance is fine if that’s what you need to - but by trying to what? If we need to learn from the mistakes of the last 5 years, then don’t use the preceding 5 years as a template.

Whatever his rights or wrongs Corbyn inspired young and marginalised people to engage in politics.... so grab that by the bollocks and run with it. If you can manage to further inspire this ‘cohort’ and get even more of them voting then chasing the Daily Mail readers becomes far less irrelevant. I also don’t see how his approach will enthuse the Scottish vote. He’s probably benefited from Brexit being done and the governments handling of Cov-ID to regain a lot of the red-wall seats already. This wasn’t down to his skills or leadership, just a reset after 2 extraordinary events happening concurrently.

 

[shmmeee]

Can’t have been that bad - still got 10m votes which was more than Brown and then Miliband.

Setting clear distance is fine if that’s what you need to - but by trying to what? If we need to learn from the mistakes of the last 5 years, then don’t use the preceding 5 years as a template.

Whatever his rights or wrongs Corbyn inspired young and marginalised people to engage in politics.... so grab that by the bollocks and run with it. If you can manage to further inspire this ‘cohort’ and get even more of them voting then chasing the Daily Mail readers becomes far less irrelevant. I also don’t see how his approach will enthuse the Scottish vote. He’s probably benefited from Brexit being done and the governments handling of Cov-ID to regain a lot of the red-wall seats already. This wasn’t down to his skills or leadership, just a reset after 2 extraordinary events happening concurrently.

Sorry this is just delusional. You cannot win an election on students alone. It’s just not possible, the numbers aren’t there. Corbyna electoral strategy was always batshit wishful thinking. We tapped out the left liberal vote in this country, there is no “running with it” unless you want to run off the end of the Earth.

The idea that we can win a GE being further left than the Greens and more socially liberal than the Lib Dem’s is just a fantasy. The only way is right and socially conservative now.

 

[Ian1779]

Sorry this is just delusional. You cannot win an election on students alone. It’s just not possible, the numbers aren’t there. Corbyna electoral strategy was always batshit wishful thinking. We tapped out the left liberal vote in this country, there is no “running with it” unless you want to run off the end of the Earth.

The idea that we can win a GE being further left than the Greens and more socially liberal than the Lib Dem’s is just a fantasy. The only way is right and socially conservative now.

I’m not saying you can just win on students alone. But when there will be 3.5m of them becoming eligible to vote in the next 4 years is it more important to chase a cohort that in reality you’d only ever be able to convert a fraction of, especially when you’ve already seen a bigger than ever level of engagement in young people than you have in many years. We clearly will continue to disagree on this point, but you yourself said 2017 manifesto was great.... so build on it, be unapologetic about the fact you have a vision you want to use to take this country forward after Brexit and Cov-ID, rather than doing this nothing ambivalence.

You have said before about being economically left and socially right - popular economic policies are there - and you have a guy that doesn’t have the skeletons of a Corbyn and ‘looks’ electable. So instead we talk about ‘the need for balancing the books’ - people are tired of the same shit.... it’s why so many voted for Brexit in the first place. It’s fucking baffling but more disappointing than anything.

 

[clint van damme]

Sorry this is just delusional. You cannot win an election on students alone. It’s just not possible, the numbers aren’t there. Corbyna electoral strategy was always batshit wishful thinking. We tapped out the left liberal vote in this country, there is no “running with it” unless you want to run off the end of the Earth.

The idea that we can win a GE being further left than the Greens and more socially liberal than the Lib Dem’s is just a fantasy. The only way is right and socially conservative now.

But he's not achieving either while at the same time allowing multiple narratives to build against him (Mr hindsight, Rashford true leader of the opposition, Tory enabler).
Its not good leadership. He needs to start standing up and standing for something and call in a decent PR firm for fucks sake and get some personality

 

[shmmeee]

I’m not saying you can just win on students alone. But when there will be 3.5m of them becoming eligible to vote in the next 4 years is it more important to chase a cohort that in reality you’d only ever be able to convert a fraction of, especially when you’ve already seen a bigger than ever level of engagement in young people than you have in many years. We clearly will continue to disagree on this point, but you yourself said 2017 manifesto was great.... so build on it, be unapologetic about the fact you have a vision you want to use to take this country forward after Brexit and Cov-ID, rather than doing this nothing ambivalence.

You have said before about being economically left and socially right - popular economic policies are there - and you have a guy that doesn’t have the skeletons of a Corbyn and ‘looks’ electable. So instead we talk about ‘the need for balancing the books’ - people are tired of the same shit.... it’s why so many voted for Brexit in the first place. It’s fucking baffling but more disappointing than anything.

Yeah totally, the biggest chunk of voters are centre left and socially conservative. Those are the “Fund the NHS and hang the pedos” voters that read the Sun and the Mail. They voted Blair in 97 because he promised to fund public services and be tough on crime. That was Boris’ play last year as well.

Corbyn was hyper socially liberal. Open borders, very woke, pro dialogue with terrorists, etc. It was never his economic policies that turned off the electorate.

Problem is that because he saw it as an opportunity to wheel out the left wings greatest policy hits the media took the chance to tie the policies to the images of “looney left”.

I don’t think Starmer’s handled the pandemic well at all. Far too indecisive when we needed to highlight that as Johnson’s weakness. But the overall strategy: accept Brexit, don’t get drawn into culture wars, don’t oppose for the sake of it, talk about family and patriotism, is IMO the right one to take to win back the voters we’ve been losing since Blair’s obsession with immigration came to the fore.

 

[Ian1779]

I may be in denial about Corbyn's electoral ‘toxicity’ - and yes he would have lost regardless. But there are plenty of people out there in denial about the fact that Starmer’s (and others) insistence to pursue a policy that tried to subvert democracy is why Labour currently have 200 MP’s and not 220/230. The red wall probably would have started to give way - but it wouldn’t have come crashing down in such spectacular fashion.

 

[shmmeee]

I may be in denial about Corbyn's electoral ‘toxicity’ - and yes he would have lost regardless. But there are plenty of people out there in denial about the fact that Starmer’s (and others) insistence to pursue a policy that tried to subvert democracy is why Labour currently have 200 MP’s and not 220/230. The red wall probably would have started to give way - but it wouldn’t have come crashing down in such spectacular fashion.

Brexit was a proxy though. A general kick back against “all this” and Corbyn was as much “all this” as any Labour politician. We’ve been losing those voters since Blair, but if you look at the data (Paula Surridge does some great stuff on Twitter), you can see Corbyn, especially since the Russia incident, turned off these voters even more.

Ive said forever that the real Labour issue is turning off the supply of good orators and leaders from faith and trade unions and replacing them with bland Oxbridge PPE grads/lawyers and shrill activists. That’s why there’s no quality leadership material in the PLP (and the ridiculous selection process), but Starmer is the most “PMy” and the strategy is the right one. Until that changes he’s worth supporting IMO.

 

[Ian1779]

Brexit was a proxy though. A general kick back against “all this” and Corbyn was as much “all this” as any Labour politician. We’ve been losing those voters since Blair, but if you look at the data (Paula Surridge does some great stuff on Twitter), you can see Corbyn, especially since the Russia incident, turned off these voters even more.

Ive said forever that the real Labour issue is turning off the supply of good orators and leaders from faith and trade unions and replacing them with bland Oxbridge PPE grads/lawyers and shrill activists. That’s why there’s no quality leadership material in the PLP (and the ridiculous selection process), but Starmer is the most “PMy” and the strategy is the right one. Until that changes he’s worth supporting IMO.

Yeah I’ve seen it and do I get your point on that, but the Brexit position was also a final straw. People went and voted Tory and will go back to Labour afterwards. People like Dennis Skinner would never have lost their seat had Labour just respected the vote. So in that regard Starmer would be having to work now with a Tory majority of 40 not 80.

I do actually want to support him - but just give me something to hang onto in doing so. I’ve felt personally very let down by the party on Cov-ID, but an apology and a commitment to back us going forward is what I want to hear. That and promising to honour the pledges he ran on ... even if the detail is not forthcoming for a while.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Sorry this is just delusional. You cannot win an election on students alone. It’s just not possible, the numbers aren’t there. Corbyna electoral strategy was always batshit wishful thinking. We tapped out the left liberal vote in this country, there is no “running with it” unless you want to run off the end of the Earth.

The idea that we can win a GE being further left than the Greens and more socially liberal than the Lib Dem’s is just a fantasy. The only way is right and socially conservative now.

Pandering to a generation declining in numbers who, given the choice of two parties promising to be tough on public spending, will vote tory anyway is delusional. Its almost as if 2015 (after a terrible 5 year coalition of rocket fuelled austerity) didn't happen. Might as well just give up tbh as fiddling around the edges as new Labour did just won't be enough.

 

[Grendel]

Can’t have been that bad - still got 10m votes which was more than Brown and then Miliband.

Setting clear distance is fine if that’s what you need to - but by trying to what? If we need to learn from the mistakes of the last 5 years, then don’t use the preceding 5 years as a template.

Whatever his rights or wrongs Corbyn inspired young and marginalised people to engage in politics.... so grab that by the bollocks and run with it. If you can manage to further inspire this ‘cohort’ and get even more of them voting then chasing the Daily Mail readers becomes far less irrelevant. I also don’t see how his approach will enthuse the Scottish vote. He’s probably benefited from Brexit being done and the governments handling of Cov-ID to regain a lot of the red-wall seats already. This wasn’t down to his skills or leadership, just a reset after 2 extraordinary events happening concurrently.

Trump got 70 million votes