Do you want to discuss boring politics? (216 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Because I feel it's a bit like the elephant in the room. What do you think? Just let it continue to be a shit show and let the Tories own it?

Literally no one wants to talk about it and COVID has given them the perfect cover.

Crack on and focus on the here and now not fight battles from five years ago. We’re out, going back in isn’t an option for at least an election cycle and likely wouldn’t be a great deal anyway. Plenty to worry about domestically post COVID.

 

---

[Skybluefaz]

Literally no one wants to talk about it and COVID has given them the perfect cover.

Crack on and focus on the here and now not fight battles from five years ago. We’re out, going back in isn’t an option for at least an election cycle and likely wouldn’t be a great deal anyway. Plenty to worry about domestically post COVID.

Fair enough.

 

[clint van damme]

Fair enough.

not really, it's insipid nonsense.
Disaster capitalists, never ones to pass up an opportunity, have made billions out of this pandemic and we've got this fucking wet lettuce as our supposed leader.

 

[Skybluefaz]

not really, it's insipid nonsense.
Disaster capitalists, never ones to pass up an opportunity, have made billions out of this pandemic and we've got this fucking wet lettuce as our supposed leader.

Ha ha, I meant his opinion was fair enough. I am not entirely sure on how labour deal with Brexit going forward. Part of me thinks call it out but I also see what Shmmeee is saying in staying well clear. My enthusiasm for Starmer is on the slide, but it's still very weird times. When Covid isn't so prominent it'll be interesting to see how things are.

 

[Ian1779]

Ha ha, I meant his opinion was fair enough. I am not entirely sure on how labour deal with Brexit going forward. Part of me thinks call it out but I also see what Shmmeee is saying in staying well clear. My enthusiasm for Starmer is on the slide, but it's still very weird times. When Covid isn't so prominent it'll be interesting to see how things are.

He doesn’t provide anything to enthuse about. Some people call it sensible apparently.

 

[clint van damme]

Ha ha, I meant his opinion was fair enough. I am not entirely sure on how labour deal with Brexit going forward. Part of me thinks call it out but I also see what Shmmeee is saying in staying well clear. My enthusiasm for Starmer is on the slide, but it's still very weird times. When Covid isn't so prominent it'll be interesting to see how things are.

imagine what will happen in Davey makes a referendum on rejoining the EU a Libs keystone policy?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

imagine what will happen in Davey makes a referendum on rejoining the EU a Libs keystone policy?

They take the South, Labour the North, and Conservatives lose 250 seats?

 

[clint van damme]

They take the South, Labour the North, and Conservatives lose 250 seats?

I'm not sure it's the Tories who would suffer most.

 

[shmmeee]

not really, it's insipid nonsense.
Disaster capitalists, never ones to pass up an opportunity, have made billions out of this pandemic and we've got this fucking wet lettuce as our supposed leader.

What do you want him to do?

How much appetite do you think the average person has to refight Brexit?

Let it sit, we’re still in early days. The time to fight Brexit was 2016 and we fucked it. You’ve got to let people come around on their own not keep trying to force it down their throats or you’ll just embed them further.

 

[Ian1779]

What do you want him to do?

How much appetite do you think the average person has to refight Brexit?

Let it sit, we’re still in early days. The time to fight Brexit was 2016 and we fucked it. You’ve got to let people come around on their own not keep trying to force it down their throats or you’ll just embed them further.

The Brexit argument is gone - he has at least accepted it and moved past it (wish he’d done the same in early 2019)

I want to hear more ideas on post-Covid. There was a bit of it today, but people want to hear how he will stop them losing their houses after furlough is over, or how his idea for the future will include what will inevitably be a very different jobs market going forward.

A vision of you like... to inspire the next generation to see what you will offer them.

 

[clint van damme]

What do you want him to do?

Be bold and inspire

 

[shmmeee]

Be bold and inspire

Who exactly should he be looking to inspire? How many people do you think are listening and what do you think will inspire them?

Putting out huge policy announcements this far from an election leads to one of two things: they’re stolen if they’re good or they’re picked apart and brought up every five minutes until you’re dead if they’re bad.

It’s going to be vague positioning and the occasional attempt to catch the zeitgeist for the next three years at least. Labour are in no position to set the agenda. Just need to keep chipping away at the party’s image and that’s a long and slow process.

Also, and I can’t state this enough: we’re up against a government who just delivered what 50% of the population have convinced themselves is their life long policy goal, has been paying people to stay at home or have a half price Nando’s, has been handing out life saving vaccines for granny, and is lead by a Saturday night TV presenter who has had a kid (big PR points), got very ill (big PR points), and handling an completely unforeseen massive event (big PR points).

The idea that the public are receptive to some narrative about how Brexit is shit and Boris killed 120k people is just fanciful.

 

[clint van damme]

Who exactly should he be looking to inspire? How many people do you think are listening and what do you think will inspire them?

Putting out huge policy announcements this far from an election leads to one of two things: they’re stolen if they’re good or they’re picked apart and brought up every five minutes until you’re dead if they’re bad.

It’s going to be vague positioning and the occasional attempt to catch the zeitgeist for the next three years at least. Labour are in no position to set the agenda. Just need to keep chipping away at the party’s image and that’s a long and slow process.

Also, and I can’t state this enough: we’re up against a government who just delivered what 50% of the population have convinced themselves is their life long policy goal, has been paying people to stay at home or have a half price Nando’s, has been handing out life saving vaccines for granny, and is lead by a Saturday night TV presenter who has had a kid (big PR points), got very ill (big PR points), and handling an completely unforeseen massive event (big PR points).

The idea that the public are receptive to some narrative about how Brexit is shit and Boris killed 120k people is just fanciful.

Let's see what happens. He still gets my vote in the Same way I was happy Walker was back- look at the alternatives.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Who exactly should he be looking to inspire? How many people do you think are listening and what do you think will inspire them?

Putting out huge policy announcements this far from an election leads to one of two things: they’re stolen if they’re good or they’re picked apart and brought up every five minutes until you’re dead if they’re bad.

It’s going to be vague positioning and the occasional attempt to catch the zeitgeist for the next three years at least. Labour are in no position to set the agenda. Just need to keep chipping away at the party’s image and that’s a long and slow process.

Also, and I can’t state this enough: we’re up against a government who just delivered what 50% of the population have convinced themselves is their life long policy goal, has been paying people to stay at home or have a half price Nando’s, has been handing out life saving vaccines for granny, and is lead by a Saturday night TV presenter who has had a kid (big PR points), got very ill (big PR points), and handling an completely unforeseen massive event (big PR points).

The idea that the public are receptive to some narrative about how Brexit is shit and Boris killed 120k people is just fanciful.

Sounds like someone's getting in their weirdest excuses for huge national losses around three months before an election.

Still trying to figure out how the right of the Labour Party is going to appease their voters for losing the 2017 General Election. Well, I say 'right', seeing there was a huge exodus of Labour supporters after this internal report was released in 2020. Nothing reminds me more of a slow car crash happening right in front of everyone's eyes.

Personally, I am more interested in how low the turnout can get in Coventry before the alarm bells start ringing that a regional Mayor will have more power than a local City Council.

 

[shmmeee]

Sounds like someone's getting in their weirdest excuses for huge national losses around three months before an election.

Still trying to figure out how the right of the Labour Party is going to appease their voters for losing the 2017 General Election. Well, I say 'right', seeing there was a huge exodus of Labour supporters after this internal report was released in 2020. Nothing reminds me more of a slow car crash happening right in front of everyone's eyes.

Personally, I am more interested in how low the turnout can get in Coventry before the alarm bells start ringing that a regional Mayor will have more power than a local City Council.

I love how far away from reality you are. Must be fun.

Stay safe though, yeah?

 

[Ian1779]

I love how far away from reality you are. Must be fun.

Stay safe though, yeah?

Whose to say it isn’t you that is detached from reality?
You have your own ideas for how the party should act/move forward but it doesn’t mean ultimately you are right. Only time will tell us who’s closer to the mark.
You certainly have a point about it being hard to lay a decisive blow on the incumbents right at this moment - opinion polls certainly aren’t the be all and end all at this stage, but May will have to be looked at as a mark in the sand.

Labour is fractured and divided - this is as much Starmer’s fault as it is disgruntled Corbynistas.
Every vote from the ‘ far-left ’ is as valid as an Daily Mail reading, red-wall living 50 something.

 

[Liquid Gold]

The party is even more a shambles under Starmer than Corbyn. Bristol West CLP voting was openly hijacked and nothing happened, all this projection about entryism and losing a voice from 5 years ago is happening right now and nobody gives a shit.

Labour is fractured and divided - this is as much Starmer’s fault as it is disgruntled Corbynistas.
Every vote from the ‘ far-left ’ is as valid as an Daily Mail reading, red-wall living 50 something.

Labour are acting like they can rely on the votes they got last time but just chase some others and it's just bullshit. Come the next election an eligible student would have been 12 in 2017, they're not going to just vote Labour because the leader when they were 12 had popular policies and planned to scrap fees. If it's a choice between a bloke in a suit going on about Britain and the Greens people will go Green. I think May will be a huge shock to the party.

Starmer was so appealing because of a mix of his perceived competence along with his pledges. Turns out they were both bollocks. Should have seen the writing on the wall when he posted out a huge poster of his face as his campaign material.

 

[shmmeee]

Whose to say it isn’t you that is detached from reality?
You have your own ideas for how the party should act/move forward but it doesn’t mean ultimately you are right. Only time will tell us who’s closer to the mark.
You certainly have a point about it being hard to lay a decisive blow on the incumbents right at this moment - opinion polls certainly aren’t the be all and end all at this stage, but May will have to be looked at as a mark in the sand.

Labour is fractured and divided - this is as much Starmer’s fault as it is disgruntled Corbynistas.
Every vote from the ‘ far-left ’ is as valid as an Daily Mail reading, red-wall living 50 something.

Nothing to do with the future. Just basic facts about the past

Still trying to figure out how the right of the Labour Party is going to appease their voters for losing the 2017 General Election. Well, I say 'right', seeing there was a huge exodus of Labour supporters after this internal report was released in 2020.

What even is that? “appease their voters for losing the 2017 GE”?? What???

“huge exodus of Labour supporters” Um, no there hasn’t been.

Fine if you think more of what brought us our biggest defeat ever is what’s needed. I disagree but you’re welcome to hold that opinion.

But that post was just drivel totally detached from reality.

 

[Ian1779]

Nothing to do with the future. Just basic facts about the past



What even is that? “appease their voters for losing the 2017 GE”?? What???

“huge exodus of Labour supporters” Um, no there hasn’t been.

Fine if you think more of what brought us our biggest defeat ever is what’s needed. I disagree but you’re welcome to hold that opinion.

But that post was just drivel totally detached from reality.

There are several different points here to address for me.
Firstly there is a question to be asked about the conduct of party officials leading up to the 2017 GE. Lots of members paid their subs in good faith (including myself) and I don’t expect people to behave in that manner. Maybe that is naive of me, but I find it disturbing to say the least. Whilst it may not directly impact the wider voting cohort, it has had an impact on those people that gave up their free time to campaign for the party. If Starmer respects these people he will follow through and take appropriate action. You can’t be zero tolerance on AS, but at the same time turn a blind eye to bullying and intolerance.
Secondly - there has been an exodus of the activists on the ground and some members, that it true - is this going to be replaced, there isn’t much evidence so far that it will be done, but time will tell.
Our biggest defeat was down to the party position on Brexit (especially in terms of seats) but I’m not ignoring the toxicity that prevailed around the leader. Despite all that we had a core set of policies that resonated with the voting population. Starmer does not need to abandon it, just put a more presentable face on it.
Post-COVID has to be more than ‘fiscal responsibility’ - it has to be innovative. He doesn’t have to lay a road map out now... but he’s got to give something.

 

[Philosoraptor]

“huge exodus of Labour supporters” Um, no there hasn’t been.

Fine if you think more of what brought us our biggest defeat ever is what’s needed. I disagree but you’re welcome to hold that opinion.

But that post was just drivel totally detached from reality.

Labour NEC vote reveals huge drop in party membership since Starmer's election

LABOUR has lost over 50,000 members since Keir Starmer became leader, according to the party’s own election records.

www.thenational.scot

 

[shmmeee]

There are several different points here to address for me.
Firstly there is a question to be asked about the conduct of party officials leading up to the 2017 GE. Lots of members paid their subs in good faith (including myself) and I don’t expect people to behave in that manner. Maybe that is naive of me, but I find it disturbing to say the least. Whilst it may not directly impact the wider voting cohort, it has had an impact on those people that gave up their free time to campaign for the party. If Starmer respects these people he will follow through and take appropriate action. You can’t be zero tolerance on AS, but at the same time turn a blind eye to bullying and intolerance.
Secondly - there has been an exodus of the activists on the ground and some members, that it true - is this going to be replaced, there isn’t much evidence so far that it will be done, but time will tell.
Our biggest defeat was down to the party position on Brexit (especially in terms of seats) but I’m not ignoring the toxicity that prevailed around the leader. Despite all that we had a core set of policies that resonated with the voting population. Starmer does not need to abandon it, just put a more presentable face on it.
Post-COVID has to be more than ‘fiscal responsibility’ - it has to be innovative. He doesn’t have to lay a road map out now... but he’s got to give something.

Our biggest issue was our leader. Believe the public when they tell you something.

And you keep going on as if he’s gone hard right when he hasn’t. He’s clearly focused around improving the party’s weak points (patriotism, security) but economically the stuff Dodds has been putting out has been very progressive. They’re already warning against austerity, they’re already saying fund public services, they’re already saying invest while borrowing is low.

There Is no point laying out a road map for what you’ll do in government until you actually have a chance of government. Blair didn’t release his big policy pledges until 1996!

Absolutely everything for the next couple of years is drip drip slow changing of perceptions among people who don’t follow politics daily. That’s the strategy. You can disagree, just as many did with Corbyns “students and non voters” strategy, but let it fail on its own terms.

As for the leaked report. We aren’t going to agree. Private WhatsApp messages saying you don’t like other people in politics isn’t news. Wel it is, because it’s likely to get us a massive fine from the ICO, but not how you’re saying.

The left as a whole won’t get anywhere until it deals with the world as it is, not spends its time inventing conspiracy theories about why it’s not more popular.

It’s the political equivalent of “why didn’t Robins signs Charlie Adam’s” or “Britain rules the world once and should again” or whatever. Bourne out of a massive misconception of our position in the world.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The party is even more a shambles under Starmer than Corbyn. Bristol West CLP voting was openly hijacked and nothing happened, all this projection about entryism and losing a voice from 5 years ago is happening right now and nobody gives a shit.


Labour are acting like they can rely on the votes they got last time but just chase some others and it's just bullshit. Come the next election an eligible student would have been 12 in 2017, they're not going to just vote Labour because the leader when they were 12 had popular policies and planned to scrap fees. If it's a choice between a bloke in a suit going on about Britain and the Greens people will go Green. I think May will be a huge shock to the party.

Starmer was so appealing because of a mix of his perceived competence along with his pledges. Turns out they were both bollocks. Should have seen the writing on the wall when he posted out a huge poster of his face as his campaign material.

I think the material so far is based on advisors and focus groups rather than Starmer. So far it's basically a message of 'not Jeremy Corbyn', because when asked why didn't you vote Labour and people say 'Jeremy Corbyn' they don't ask why a number of them DID vote for him the previous time. That's linked to Corbyn and largely his failure to address Brexit concerns. The more 'left wing' policies of 'nationalising' some industries is also divisive, but that's also largely to the Tory spin machine framing them negatively a people believing that narrative. When you ask many of those same people to explain what they want in their own words it's often more closely aligned and likely to be achieved with plans like those than ones Tories put forward which will exacerbate the problem. But they know the right trigger words. Use words like nationalisation and the ingrained psyche just instantly tells people to reject. Similar with services they want provided or improved. The tories know the only thing they need to do is say 'tax' and suddenly they're all against it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Labour NEC vote reveals huge drop in party membership since Starmer's election

LABOUR has lost over 50,000 members since Keir Starmer became leader, according to the party’s own election records.

www.thenational.scot

Party membership isn't important long term. Tories have much lower membership. Also much of the membership is linked to Unions, so if you go from a left-winger like Corbyn to a more Blairite figure such as Starmer membership was bound to fall. Membership attracts the nutcases at the extremes - the average voter isn't going to join any political party because they don't care enough and even those engaged in politics couldn't give a rats arse about the party political bollocks. I can't stand it - gets in the way of governance because nowadays it's more about 'owning' the enemy than actually doing a decent fucking job.

Members don't win you elections, voters do.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Putting out huge policy announcements this far from an election leads to one of two things: they’re stolen if they’re good or they’re picked apart and brought up every five minutes until you’re dead if they’re bad.

It’s going to be vague positioning and the occasional attempt to catch the zeitgeist for the next three years at least. Labour are in no position to set the agenda. Just need to keep chipping away at the party’s image and that’s a long and slow process.

I agree entirely.

Although the desire for good governance would see me prefer to have good policies enabled regardless of who puts them in I can see from a party perspective why it's damaging.

Why put forward policy now when you can't act upon it. Up to the last year of a sitting government focus on opposing their plans - make them do the work and put the ideas out there to be shot down. If they enact them and they're shit it just gives you more material in the election.

Of course there'll then be the retort of "well why don't you come up with something better" I'd just retort with "we will. When there's the opportunity for the people of the country to make a decision on them. It's their opinion that matters and that should be done at the ballot box, not the dispatch box"

 

[shmmeee]

I agree entirely.

Although the desire for good governance would see me prefer to have good policies enabled regardless of who puts them in I can see from a party perspective why it's damaging.

Why put forward policy now when you can't act upon it. Up to the last year of a sitting government focus on opposing their plans - make them do the work and put the ideas out there to be shot down. If they enact them and they're shit it just gives you more material in the election.

Of course there'll then be the retort of "well why don't you come up with something better" I'd just retort with "we will. When there's the opportunity for the people of the country to make a decision on them. It's their opinion that matters and that should be done at the ballot box, not the dispatch box"

We can do it when we’ve got a real winner. The cladding thing or school meals for example when the public Is obviously on your side. But you can’t go around announcing huge sweeping changes that’ll be picked apart for years. Especially when you’re trying to give off an image of change from Corbyn and stability vs the current govt.

 

[Ian1779]

Party membership isn't important long term. Tories have much lower membership. Also much of the membership is linked to Unions, so if you go from a left-winger like Corbyn to a more Blairite figure such as Starmer membership was bound to fall. Membership attracts the nutcases at the extremes - the average voter isn't going to join any political party because they don't care enough and even those engaged in politics couldn't give a rats arse about the party political bollocks. I can't stand it - gets in the way of governance because nowadays it's more about 'owning' the enemy than actually doing a decent fucking job.

Members don't win you elections, voters do.

Whilst I don’t disagree necessarily - Labour’s PV policy was borne from the will of the membership. These weren’t what you would call ‘extreme’ (apart from their Brexit position) so you could argue the moderate members were complicit in an absurd policy. The more extreme members were far more likely to accept the vote... making them more in-line with the wishes of the electorate.
Labour didn’t realise 2 years ago that their metropolitan membership did not reflect the electorate then - I see no evidence it will have changed to better reflect it now.
Ultimately it’s members that campaign - so there will be less of them pounding the street.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Whilst I don’t disagree necessarily - Labour’s PV policy was borne from the will of the membership. These weren’t what you would call ‘extreme’ (apart from their Brexit position) so you could argue the moderate members were complicit in an absurd policy. The more extreme members were far more likely to accept the vote... making them more in-line with the wishes of the electorate.
Labour didn’t realise 2 years ago that their metropolitan membership did not reflect the electorate then - I see no evidence it will have changed to better reflect it now.
Ultimately it’s members that campaign - so there will be less of them pounding the street.

How many people totally ignore those pounding the streets? Or see them as an inconvenience when they knock on the door or try and stop them in the street.

A headline in the papers or on the news or a twitter/facebook viral tweet will have many times more effect and be seen by far more people.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We can do it when we’ve got a real winner. The cladding thing or school meals for example when the public Is obviously on your side. But you can’t go around announcing huge sweeping changes that’ll be picked apart for years. Especially when you’re trying to give off an image of change from Corbyn and stability vs the current govt.

For me those are things I'd class as 'opposition' rather than putting forward new policy, which I've said is what much of the term should be spent doing..

You're opposing the stance of the governments to refuse to feed kids out of term time or paying for cladding to be replaced.

 

[Ian1779]

How many people totally ignore those pounding the streets? Or see them as an inconvenience when they knock on the door or try and stop them in the street.

A headline in the papers or on the news or a twitter/facebook viral tweet will have many times more effect and be seen by far more people.

Maybe - but as we’ve seen over the last 5 years... it’s far easier to portray a message of hate or intolerance via a media platform than it is a message of hope. That’s what Labour are up against.

More people will share messaging of hating on Harry and Meghan than they will of kids going hungry.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Going well

 

[Liquid Gold]

the whole 'wait for election' thing would be fine if Corbyn didn't have to fight a coup for much less.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

the whole 'wait for election' thing would be fine if Corbyn didn't have to fight a coup for much less.

tbf I was against that then, and I'd be against it now.

Better to unite behind a leader and see how it goes if there's some kind of strategy. Only Iain Duncan Smith has been removed particularly sharp-ish really.

 

[skybluetony176]

Meanwhile in the Tory camp

 

[Liquid Gold]

tbf I was against that then, and I'd be against it now.

Better to unite behind a leader and see how it goes if there's some kind of strategy. Only Iain Duncan Smith has been removed particularly sharp-ish really.

I wouldn't be up for a coup either but it all just shows the contempt with which they hold anybody with left wing views in.

Corbyn polling poorly - Coup
Starmer polling poorly - Silence

'Corbyn is going to kick out all the moderates' - nothing happens
'Starmer is going to unite the party' - kicks out the left

'Corbyn allows anti semitism' - should have done more but prevented by NEC and McNichol
'Starmer will rid the party of antisemitism' - yes, apart from his allies who go untouched

Corbyn supporters are cultists - lose your mind at an objectively funny video of starter

'Corbyn can't run the party' - 'He's useless get rid'
'Starmer can't run the party' - 'Give him some time'

'Corbyn is a McCarthyist' - silences nobody
'Finally the party is under control of the adults' - Bristol West CLP blatant vote rigging barely even spoken about.

I voted Nandy 1 and Starmer 2, didn't put RLB down at all so I'm not some cultist but equally I'm not being gaslighted by this shit. I won't be voting Labour in May for council or mayor and I won't when an election comes unless they change and that doesn't have to be huge policy it just means a bit of honesty, transparency and inclusiveness.

 

[Liquid Gold]

I may as well pre-empt the completely predictable reply with a heavy dose of irony by saying- you're not going to win voters by telling them they're wrong - and bow out, I should have learned to ignore the politics threads in this place by now.