Do you want to discuss boring politics? (87 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Tories: get 90% approval on the public’s number one priority by some distance. Something unheard of in post war times.

Everyone: is this proof of my own personal theories about Labour??

 

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[mrtrench]

These are the votes for the Socialist Party in France over 50 years. Next election they are predicted to not even make it past the first round.



Some people are speculating that the British Labour Party is going the same way. My pet theory is that Ed Miliband's decision to stand against his brother and move Left was a critical moment in history. And the courting of the woke is alienating traditional Labour voters in the North further still.

 

[Skybluefaz]

These are the votes for the Socialist Party in France over 50 years. Next election they are predicted to not even make it past the first round.

View attachment 19877

Some people are speculating that the British Labour Party is going the same way. My pet theory is that Ed Miliband's decision to stand against his brother and move Left was a critical moment in history. And the courting of the woke is alienating traditional Labour voters in the North further still.

What do you actually mean by 'courting of the woke'?

 

[mrtrench]

What do you actually mean by 'courting of the woke'?

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

 

[shmmeee]

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

Love it when Islington is used as an insult, when only one of the two party leaders lives there, and it isn’t Starmer.

I think the woke stuff isn’t liked, but I don’t think the British public is the 14 year old edge lords you portray them as either.

Polling suggests the public support self id and medically transitioned TW in women’s spaces for example, but not untransitioned:



On this issue alone Con voters are out of step on 7 compared to 6 for Labour voters.

On BLM and taking the knee the public is split but generally supports the aims of BLM:




That first column after the totals is Con voters, again out of step with public opinion on the overall issue.

There’s little to no polling on CRT because outside of edgelord and woke Twitter it’s a completely meaningless phrase with no cut through to the general public.

And you say middle class, but again the proportion of votes from the middle classes are higher for the Tories than Labour:



It really doesn’t get more complex than this:



And this:

 

[mrtrench]

Love it when Islington is used as an insult, when only one of the two party leaders lives there, and it isn’t Starmer.

I think the woke stuff isn’t liked, but I don’t think the British public is the 14 year old edge lords you portray them as either.

Polling suggests the public support self id and medically transitioned TW in women’s spaces for example, but not in transitioned:

View attachment 19879

On this issue alone Con voters are out of step on 7 compared to 6 for Labour voters.

On BLM and taking the knee the public is split but generally supports the aims of BLM:

View attachment 19881
View attachment 19880

That first column after the totals is Con voters, again out of step with public opinion on the overall issue.

There’s little to no polling on CRT because outside of edgelord and woke Twitter it’s a completely meaningless phrase with no cut through to the general public.

And you say middle class, but again the proportion of votes from the middle classes are higher for the Tories than Labour:

View attachment 19882

It really doesn’t get more complex than this:

View attachment 19884

And this:

View attachment 19883

"Islington" - I wanted one word to summarise the kind of people to whom I was referring. It wasn't intended as an insult but a reference point.

"Woke Stuff" - I tend to agree. Britain is, on the whole, a very tolerant society. Few, I suspect, would have any serious issue with a bloke wearing women's clothes and saying he's a woman - although they might be more likely to take the piss in a pub than to admit to being a bigot in a survey. However I also think that the typical person who would have a problem may be a builder or similar - i.e. working class.

But wokery takes it further than that and that's the bit people don't like: trans women playing in female sports and women with male genitalia being resident in women's prisons. I don't think that all these new genders play well with the general public either. It's not even about policies per se... it's perception. If you get a Labour MP insisting that we call them by some new pronoun, it'll be all over the news and not good news for Starmer. And I can imagine it happening.

Similarly, I think even fewer people nowadays think of themselves as racist... even some people I knew in the 80s who crossed well over the line for me no longer behave in that way. But what about the state paying reparations to all black people for slavery? I doubt that would be popular - but I can imagine Starmer being forced into taking that position.

There will be pressure on Starmer to sign off on the more extreme positions. This is what I meant.

 

[Grendel]

"Islington" - I wanted one word to summarise the kind of people to whom I was referring. It wasn't intended as an insult but a reference point.

"Woke Stuff" - I tend to agree. Britain is, on the whole, a very tolerant society. Few, I suspect, would have any serious issue with a bloke wearing women's clothes and saying he's a woman - although they might be more likely to take the piss in a pub than to admit to being a bigot in a survey. However I also think that the typical person who would have a problem may be a builder or similar - i.e. working class.

But wokery takes it further than that and that's the bit people don't like: trans women playing in female sports and women with male genitalia being resident in women's prisons. I don't think that all these new genders play well with the general public either. It's not even about policies per se... it's perception. If you get a Labour MP insisting that we call them by some new pronoun, it'll be all over the news and not good news for Starmer. And I can imagine it happening.

Similarly, I think even fewer people nowadays think of themselves as racist... even some people I knew in the 80s who crossed well over the line for me no longer behave in that way. But what about the state paying reparations to all black people for slavery? I doubt that would be popular - but I can imagine Starmer being forced into taking that position.

There will be pressure on Starmer to sign off on the more extreme positions. This is what I meant.

The pressure really will be on him if he loses Hartlepool

I suspect many of the internal hierarchy want him to lose it

 

[PVA]

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

Woke
Gender
Trans
Race
BLM
Islington

 

[mrtrench]

The pressure really will be on him if he loses Hartlepool

I suspect many of the internal hierarchy want him to lose it

I don't know what Labour does now... it's in a right old pickle and whilst some of it is self-imposed (Miliband and then Corbyn) they are also the victim of the woke movement. I don't think Starmer has done very much wrong but he's not charismatic. Rayner would be worse - and just imagine if Richard Burgon took over! What do they do? David Miliband was their hope of government, IMO, and that ship has sailed. Is there anyone with a serious chance remaining?

I don't know the future but I can understand why some people are suggesting they are finished. And with the Lib Dems embracing wokery as well... the Tories have no opposition.

 

[Grendel]

Good to see the middle classes are dragging themselves out of bed to join in after a slow start in the conservatory with an organic egg on rye bread while flicking through the guardian

 

[mrtrench]

Woke
Gender
Trans
Race
BLM
Islington

Is there anything else on your CV?

 

[PVA]

Good to see the middle classes are dragging themselves out of bed to join in after a slow start in the conservatory with an organic egg on rye bread while flicking through the guardian

You called me working class yesterday. Which is it?

Make your mind up grandad.

If you must know I had buttered toast and a black coffee.

 

[Grendel]

Is there anything else on your CV?

I imagine him dusting his picture of Poly Toynbee while googling latest work terms

 

[PVA]

Is there anything else on your CV?

Is there anything else in your vocabulary? Literally all you have is these buzzwords. Just surprised you missed out snowflake and Marxism.

 

[mrtrench]

Is there anything else in your vocabulary? Literally all you have is these buzzwords. Just surprised you missed out snowflake and Marxism.

And that's why I think you're funny - even more amusing that Tony. You've scanned a post in response to a question: "what do you mean by courting the woke" to look for words relating to woke and gotten all excited when you find some. So funny.

 

[PVA]

There's a small element of extreme left wing 'woke' weirdos who support Labour.

Apparently that's a good enough reason not to vote Labour.


There's a small element of extreme right wing racists who support the Conservatives.

Why is that never mentioned by those who don't want to vote Labour because of the extreme left? Surely that's a good enough reason not to vote Tory?

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Grendel]

You called me working class yesterday. Which is it?

Make your mind up grandad.

If you must know I had buttered toast and a black coffee.

I had you down as an Earl grey chap. Was it organic Kopi Luwak? It’s so in vogue

 

[mrtrench]

There's a small element of extreme left wing 'woke' weirdos who support Labour.

Apparently that's a good enough reason not to vote Labour.

Where was that said?

Pity you deleted the other post. That told me!

 

[PVA]

I had you down as an Earl grey chap. Was it organic Kopi Luwak? It’s so in vogue

Well every assumption you've ever held about me is wrong. I'm touched that you take such an in interest in my life though.

 

[PVA]

Where was that said?

You said Labour are alienating the North by courting wokery.

i.e. People aren't voting Labour because of the extreme left.

 

[mrtrench]

You said Labour are alienating the North by courting wokery.

i.e. People aren't voting Labour because of the extreme left.

I did. It's my analysis of why Labour continues to trail in the polls and is projected to lose more of the red wall in the upcoming elections. It's not my argument for not voting Labour. Indeed, I'm more likely to vote Labour myself now than at any time in the past 6 years. I won't; but it's no longer inconceivable.

Nuance is important and appreciating nuance is becoming, IMO, a rare talent.

Why do you think that Labour is losing the working class?

 

[PVA]

I did. It's my analysis of why Labour continues to trail in the polls and is projected to lose more of the red wall in the upcoming elections. It's not my argument for not voting Labour. Indeed, I'm more likely to vote Labour myself now than at any time in the past 6 years. I won't; but it's no longer inconceivable.

Nuance is important and appreciating nuance is becoming, IMO, a rare talent.

Why do you think that Labour is losing the working class?

I think Labour lost the working class in the last election because of Brexit.

Partly because of Corbyn, but mostly because of Brexit.

Actually I don't think that's why they lost the working class, I know it is. It's pretty indisputable.

Brexit was a huge issue for the working class and the Tories was obviously the choice for anyone who wanted Brexit.

Of course they are now being utterly shafted by leaving the EU, but that's a different conversation.

 

[Grendel]

I did. It's my analysis of why Labour continues to trail in the polls and is projected to lose more of the red wall in the upcoming elections. It's not my argument for not voting Labour. Indeed, I'm more likely to vote Labour myself now than at any time in the past 6 years. I won't; but it's no longer inconceivable.

Nuance is important and appreciating nuance is becoming, IMO, a rare talent.

Why do you think that Labour is losing the working class?

There are so many fallacies really

- only old vote tory
- people are rejecting capitalism
- only thick working classes vote Tory
- the educated vote Labour

Im surprised we haven’t had someone suggest remove the vote from those who don’t know what’s good for them

Here’s a spoonful of socialism it’s good for you

 

[PVA]

There are so many fallacies really

- only old vote tory
- the educated vote Labour

You think they are fallacies?

 

[Grendel]

You think they are fallacies?

well I wouldn’t call 39 old and I assume if you believe the second one you voted for Boris Johnson anyway at the last election

 

[PVA]

well I wouldn’t call 39 old and I assume if you believe the second one you voted for Boris Johnson anyway at the last election

Wow that's weak, even for you.

 

[Skybluefaz]

I mean all the post-modern stuff that appeals to middle-class Socialists: self gender-id; trans women in women's toilets and prisons; no-platforming; critical race theory; taking the knee for BLM... I think Starmer is astute enough to realise that what plays well in Islington doesn't in Hartlepool - but he's not going to find it easy to find a path through the middle and he still has people like Rayner who will pull him away from Workington man.

Cheers, wasn't trying to be mischievous genuinely don't quite understand what people mean by terms surrounding woke/anti-woke at the minute. Or maybe more so it seems a bit of a lazy catch all thing sometimes. Shit buzzword anyway. The framing of this sort of stuff as the important matter of the day is the cleverest part.

 

[Evo1883]

There's a small element of extreme left wing 'woke' weirdos who support Labour.

Apparently that's a good enough reason not to vote Labour.


There's a small element of extreme right wing racists who support the Conservatives.

Why is that never mentioned by those who don't want to vote Labour because of the extreme left? Surely that's a good enough reason not to vote Tory?

Can't have it both ways.

I don't think it's a small amount to be fair , it's a huge chunk of their membership for starters(Labour)

The party is followed by millions of insufferable twats

Sorry but it's true

 

[Ian1779]

I don't know what Labour does now... it's in a right old pickle and whilst some of it is self-imposed (Miliband and then Corbyn) they are also the victim of the woke movement. I don't think Starmer has done very much wrong but he's not charismatic. Rayner would be worse - and just imagine if Richard Burgon took over! What do they do? David Miliband was their hope of government, IMO, and that ship has sailed. Is there anyone with a serious chance remaining?

I don't know the future but I can understand why some people are suggesting they are finished. And with the Lib Dems embracing wokery as well... the Tories have no opposition.

Labour needs to spilt. And then one of the 2 parts can merge with the Lib Dems.

 

[Grendel]

Wow that's weak, even for you.

Is 39 old?

And what defines better education?

 

[PVA]

I don't think it's a small amount to be fair , it's a huge chunk of their membership for starters(Labour)

The party is followed by millions of insufferable twats

Same could be said for the Conservatives though.

 

[Evo1883]

Same could be said for the Conservatives though.

I think the difference is though the people that follow the tories on the whole aren't plastering their bullshit opinions all over social media .

The damage social media has done to the Labour party simply cannot be ignored

 

[PVA]

Is 39 old?

And what defines better education?

The older someone is the more likely they are to vote Tory.

The further into education someone goes the more likely they are to vote Labour.

Dress it up how you like, they are facts.

 

[PVA]

I think the difference is though the people that follow the tories on the whole aren't plastering their bullshit opinions all over social media .

The damage social media has done to the Labour party simply cannot be ignored

Disagree, twitter and Facebook are absolute cess pits and are full of bullshit from both sides of the divide.

 

[Evo1883]

The older someone is the more likely they are to vote Tory.

The further into education someone goes the more likely they are to vote Labour.

Dress it up how you like, they are facts.

Kids and young adults then

With Much less responsibilities,Less money , less life experience etc etc