Do you want to discuss boring politics? (158 Viewers)

[fatso]

The guy that is PM said he would let bodies pile high and still comes up smelling of roses.
This is going to take a while to unpick.

Allegedly. He has denied it.
And like the issue over who paid for the wallpaper, the voters arnt interested.
As indicated in today's results.

In fact if anything, its made labour look a bit pathetic, if that's all the headway they can make in such trying times.

 

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[Ian1779]

I think that's far too simplistic an outlook.
The referendum was incredibly close, there were many remainers who went on and voted against labour.
If the election was purely down to Brexit, it would never od delivered an 80 seat majority.

You only have to look at where the remain and leave vote was over the country. Remain vote largely contained to big cities and metropolitan areas and the South. And when it came down to it Labour’s former red wall does not fit in with this breakdown. And that’s why it fell so spectacularly.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Looks like a Labour civil war has been declared on Radio 4 and we've got three days of electon results to go.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think it's the case that 'lovable boris' does carry some voters. But I think that to constantly ply the theme that voters are suckers does little in address the main issue, that the main opposition is unelectable. The problem for KS and Labour is that momentum is heavily entrenched and holds many seats of power, including many standing MPs. It will take years to unwind that, if possible.

Look in the Cabinet and tell me what’s so personally appealing about the individuals in it. What is it about Gavin Williamson and Matt Hancock that turns on the voters? I voted for Corbyn as leader before, I hated him not long before the election. Evo summed it up, it’s all about personality, not policies, not substantive anything.

Just ‘he seems alright’

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Looks like a Labour civil war has been declared on Radio 4 and we've got three days of electon results to go.

Well between that and the end of the Union you must be more ecstatic than one of those whacky graphs

 

[CCFCSteve]

Green policy is popular. That’s why the Tories had to pretend they cared. Immigration concerns are way down.

It’s the basics of getting elected and none of it is anti Labour values:

- Tough on crime
- Fund the NHS/Police/Schools
- Love the country and its people

None of that requires jettisoning left wing politics, but sadly in 2021 it means distancing yourself from a lot of “left wing” people.

No one will vote for a bunch of condescending arseholes who hate you and are constantly negative.

This is the most accurate post on here for a while !

People asked why did so many voted Tory at last election, I’m guessing without even reading their main manifesto promises (most are things that left/right would vote for). Those plus ‘get Brexit done’ (people wanted it out the way) and Corbyn/McDonnell perceived (probably actual) lack of patriotism...and it’s not hard to see why but I think the left can be so blinded by hating everything Tory they miss what makes the electorate tick

It’s not a lost cause for the Labour. They need to hold their nerve though (these are unusual times as discussed previously)

 

[Deleted member 5849]

We had 3 votes where I was yesterday. I voted for 2 Lab councillors and 1 Green. Not one single party sent any literature about the local elections, which is surprising considering Northamptonshire were voting for a completely new set of councillors since the old one was shut down. I don’t know if that complete lack of effort was replicated elsewhere.

That's the most appalling thing really, having no clue who you're actually voting for.

Given my philosophy is only vote for people who tell you that, but that restricted me to Tory and TUSC candidates, that was me shafted yesterday tbh!

 

[shmmeee]

People seem to be happy to vote for the Tories that labelled them a bunch of lazy bastards. Or lacking the common sense to escape a burning building.

I'm not sure what it is tbf, I'm just hoping this is the equivalent of when City dropped into league 2. Bottoming out moment.

But they also think their workmates are lazy bastards or that they would leave a burning building.

It’s deeper than any comment. It’s a guttural feeling that the working class aren’t liked by Labour activists and some MPs. It’s born out of social activism needing to make every problem sound huge to get support IMO.

It’s the sneering at the flag. The sneering at working class culture. The sneering at voters for voting how they voted.

That’s the activist left. The political establishment soft left isn’t much better, all patronising and maternal and knows what’s best.

Immigration was just a microcosm but a good case study. People said “I don’t like the pace of change in my community” (a perfectly normal human reaction seen around the world and not rooted in racism) Labour saw it as a defect that needed fixing in people “too racist” “too easily led by the media” “too stupid to understand how important immigrants are”.

Focus on every smaller groups at the exclusion of the majority. The problem with minority identity politics is by definition it doesn’t concern a majority of people.

The closest Labour have is Jess Phillips for not hating the working class. But instead she decided to hate 49% of the population instead (I don’t think that’s true but that’s what’s received).

The left are perfectly capable of pulling their head out of their arses, having a bit of humility, and seeing the upper class as the enemy not the bloke in the pub who said “blind spot” in front of a blind person or whatever.

We talk condescendingly about the Tories putting the working class against each other but then do it ourselves all the fucking time.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Look in the Cabinet and tell me what’s so personally appealing about the individuals in it. What is it about Gavin Williamson and Matt Hancock that turns on the voters? I voted for Corbyn as leader before, I hated him not long before the election. Evo summed it up, it’s all about personality, not policies, not substantive anything.

Just ‘he seems alright’

Boris lad. Rolling out the gun ships, that'll learn 'em. Tank top wearing bum boys, lol, he says what he thinks. Top shagger.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

This is the most accurate post on here for a while !

People asked why did so many voted Tory at last election, I’m guessing without even reading their main manifesto promises (most are things that left/right would vote for). Those plus ‘get Brexit done’ (people wanted it out the way) and Corbyn/McDonnell perceived (probably actual) lack of patriotism...and it’s not hard to see why but I think the left can be so blinded by hating everything Tory they miss what makes the electorate tick

It’s not a lost cause for the Labour. They need to hold their nerve though (these are unusual times as discussed previously)

What the Tory Party have in charge atm is an old school Liberal really - free on individual liberties, not afraid to spend if needs be, not as small state as his party.

Whenever he goes, chances are his party shifts right given who's behind him, and that shifts certain places back Labour, especially post vaccine etc. It's very much an overreaction to a set of election results where, seemingly, there's little effort and there is undeniably a vaccine bounce but, conversely, current results show there's an appetite for social justice and lifting up - it just needs them to be authentic about it.

Starmer's selling points are that he's self-made, successful, principled, reliable. None of those are bad qualities to put forward.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is the most accurate post on here for a while !

People asked why did so many voted Tory at last election, I’m guessing without even reading their main manifesto promises (most are things that left/right would vote for). Those plus ‘get Brexit done’ (people wanted it out the way) and Corbyn/McDonnell perceived (probably actual) lack of patriotism...and it’s not hard to see why but I think the left can be so blinded by hating everything Tory they miss what makes the electorate tick

It’s not a lost cause for the Labour. They need to hold their nerve though (these are unusual times as discussed previously)

I think it is and we’re on for a permanent Tory state. There is no path for victory when perception and personality politics is all that seems to count.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think that's far too simplistic an outlook.
The referendum was incredibly close, there were many remainers who went on and voted against labour.
If the election was purely down to Brexit, it would never od delivered an 80 seat majority.

Remember Liberals and Labour split the vote though - it needed a Lib-Lab pact, but Libs hated Corbyn too much, and he wasn't going to compromise on anything

 

[shmmeee]

I should say again that I voted Corbyn in after seeing him at leadership hustings. In those hustings he made me (a leftie) feel “seen” and valued and liked. He spoke about a future I’d like to see where we meet my priorities (investment, climate change, education, higher wages). I didn’t know about some of his weirder positions and the few I did (homeopathy) I was happy to shove to the back of my mind for the rest.

I should point out that pseudoscience is a big red line for me. I stopped voting Green due to their nonsense on nuclear and GMOs. But even that didn’t stop me supporting Corbyn full throated because the rest was so good. The antisemitism was vague enough to be written off as smears at first.

That’s literally all the Tories do. The public know Johnson is a shit in some places, and can justify and handwave some other places because he’s the first person in ages listening to a section of the electorate that post Blair has been ignored at best and vilified at worst. And ironically they’re the largest section of the electorate.

The Tories are election winning machines. At their best they are razor focused on projecting responsiveness to voter concerns even if, often especially if, they don’t align with right wing ideology fully. They keep quiet about the stuff they want to do (shrink the state and pass public assets to their mates) or frame it only in terms the public likes. And they win, and they get their agenda established.

 

[SBAndy]

What the Tory Party have in charge atm is an old school Liberal really - free on individual liberties, not afraid to spend if needs be, not as small state as his party.

Whenever he goes, chances are his party shifts right given who's behind him, and that shifts certain places back Labour, especially post vaccine etc. It's very much an overreaction to a set of election results where, seemingly, there's little effort and there is undeniably a vaccine bounce but, conversely, current results show there's an appetite for social justice and lifting up - it just needs them to be authentic about it.

Starmer's selling points are that he's self-made, successful, principled, reliable. None of those are bad qualities to put forward.

Fair point on the area of the political spectrum that the Tories are occupying at the moment. And where they will likely head.

On the subject of a lack of effort in the local elections, that is why I was 100% confident that I’d wake up this morning and the Tories would have taken Nuneaton & Bedworth. They’ve been going on about it for at least 2-3 months. In that time, not a sausage out of Labour.

 

[shmmeee]

Rising house prices are the election winner. That's mostly what it comes down to, that's what a sizeable proportion of the electorate care about.

This is entirely intentional as well. And as a new homeowner as of today, and a new resident of a Tory council, I can’t wait for the good times to roll

 

[fatso]

Looks like a Labour civil war has been declared on Radio 4 and we've got three days of electon results to go.

That could be good news for labour.
Something has to change for them, they cant just plod on losing one seat after another.
Sooner or later they will have to make the tough decisions and turn themselves around.
I just wonder if KS is the type of strong personality to do it.

 

[PVA]

Boris lad. Rolling out the gun ships, that'll learn 'em. Tank top wearing bum boys, lol, he says what he thinks. Top shagger.

This. I fucking despair that these things are more important to the majority than funding the NHS or helping those in need.

I do not like the direction this country is heading in.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That could be good news for labour.
Something has to change for them, they cant just plod on losing one seat after another.
Sooner or later they will have to make the tough decisions and turn themselves around.
I just wonder if KS is the type of strong personality to do it.

Just wind up the party at this point

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I just wonder if KS is the type of strong personality to do it.

His track record pre politics says very much yes. It's more if the machinery goes with him.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This. I fucking despair that these things are more important to the majority than funding the NHS or helping those in need.

I do not like the direction this country is heading in.

Missus and I more seriously talked about emigrating today. As and when Philosorapter leads Scotland to independence

 

[Deleted member 5849]

In fact with Starmer, it's maybe right person, wrong time. Put bluntly, when you have a posh Old Etonian on one side, you need a blunt northerner to face off against them. The loss of Scotland restricts the pool there too

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In fact with Starmer, it's maybe right person, wrong time. Put bluntly, when you have a posh Old Etonian on one side, you need a blunt northerner to face off against them. The loss of Scotland restricts the pool there too

Ian Murray is quite good and has held his seat through both 2015 and 2019. I’d like to see him given higher prominence. Anas Sarwar will continue to do well also.

 

[fatso]

Remember Liberals and Labour split the vote though - it needed a Lib-Lab pact, but Libs hated Corbyn too much, and he wasn't going to compromise on anything

But the Brexit party split the tory vote.
It would of been a 100+ seat majority had it not been for the votes lost to them.

(as claimed by a number of statisticians at the time, but you know how statistics can say anything you want)

 

[PVA]

Missus and I more seriously talked about emigrating today. As and when Philosorapter leads Scotland to independence

I don't blame you.

I would if I could but couldn't up sticks with our business.

I have a 6 month old daughter and would rather she didn't grow up under such a nationalist government only interested in lining their own pockets.

 

[shmmeee]

My electoral advice for Labour, in the form of a Karen FB meme:

 

[PVA]

I did enjoy this from Bercow though, deafening silence from that corrupt prick Jenrick at the end. This cheered me up a bit

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But the Brexit party split the tory vote.
It would of been a 100+ seat majority had it not been for the votes lost to them.

(as claimed by a number of statisticians at the time, but you know how statistics can say anything you want)

They didn't stand in areas where they thought they'd stop a Tory win.

It was playing the system rather than the percentages. Also how, incidentally, the Liberals ended up with 60 seats but a smaller vote share.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don't blame you.

I would if I could but couldn't up sticks with our business.

I have a 6 month old daughter and would rather she didn't grow up under such a nationalist government only interested in lining their own pockets.

We would either move back to her roots north of the border or some left wing haven on the coast. Just tired of what the country has become

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My electoral advice for Labour, in the form of a Karen FB meme:

Great

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Oh, even in the 70s, Harold Wilson realised that in opposition to Ted Heath, what he needed to emphasise was Northern pipe smoker, rather than Oxford educated.

You need a distinction. Blair could work because he was up against Major, Cameron wouldn't have worked against Blair, reverse the positions and Brown would have worked against an incumbent Cameron government.

Over simplified obviously, but what they need to do where they are is play on their leader's strong beliefs and willingness to fight for what he thinks is right, and the working man.

 

[fatso]

But they also think their workmates are lazy bastards or that they would leave a burning building.

It’s deeper than any comment. It’s a guttural feeling that the working class aren’t liked by Labour activists and some MPs. It’s born out of social activism needing to make every problem sound huge to get support IMO.

It’s the sneering at the flag. The sneering at working class culture. The sneering at voters for voting how they voted.

That’s the activist left. The political establishment soft left isn’t much better, all patronising and maternal and knows what’s best.

Immigration was just a microcosm but a good case study. People said “I don’t like the pace of change in my community” (a perfectly normal human reaction seen around the world and not rooted in racism) Labour saw it as a defect that needed fixing in people “too racist” “too easily led by the media” “too stupid to understand how important immigrants are”.

Focus on every smaller groups at the exclusion of the majority. The problem with minority identity politics is by definition it doesn’t concern a majority of people.

The closest Labour have is Jess Phillips for not hating the working class. But instead she decided to hate 49% of the population instead (I don’t think that’s true but that’s what’s received).

The left are perfectly capable of pulling their head out of their arses, having a bit of humility, and seeing the upper class as the enemy not the bloke in the pub who said “blind spot” in front of a blind person or whatever.

We talk condescendingly about the Tories putting the working class against each other but then do it ourselves all the fucking time.

I'm starting to feel uncomfortable agreeing with you so much !!!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh, even in the 70s, Harold Wilson realised that in opposition to Ted Heath, what he needed to emphasise was Northern pipe smoker, rather than Oxford educated.

You need a distinction. Blair could work because he was up against Major, Cameron wouldn't have worked against Blair, reverse the positions and Brown would have worked against an incumbent Cameron government.

Over simplified obviously, but what they need to do where they are is play on their leader's strong beliefs and willingness to fight for what he thinks is right, and the working man.

Boris has conned enough people into thinking he believes in Brexit despite writing essays for and against it so he could make a political calculation.

Rich
Posh accent
Long words
Tells jokes
Waves flag
Holds pints

80 seat majority

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I'm starting to feel uncomfortable agreeing with you so much !!!

I guess it’s because he’s a self hating Labour voter

 

[Philosoraptor]

Missus and I more seriously talked about emigrating today. As and when Philosorapter leads Scotland to independence

I was one of the very first to call for a new referendum on Scotland's status after the UK voted to leave the EU.

It is a huge forced change to Scotland's Constitution against the wishes of the Scottish electorate.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think it is and we’re on for a permanent Tory state. There is no path for victory when perception and personality politics is all that seems to count.

Times change BSB. People probably thought that when Thatcher and Blair were in charge. NWs right, take Johnson out the equation and Tories would struggle unless they’re hiding someone behind the scenes (Sunak is the only one that seems to currently have wider appeal). You’ve only got to be better than the alternative(s) on offer

If Tories shift right, Labour need to occupy centre... I can see them shifting left if they panic though which might leave door open for an alternative Tory leader

Who knows though