Do you want to discuss boring politics? (138 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Going back to Grendel's thing earlier about brand perception, it does seem Labour's brand is now poison. So is the Lib Dem's after the coalition after choosing the wrong hill to die on, which is unfortunate (or Tories coming up lucky yet again) as given the state of the Labour party 10 years ago you'd have said the Lib Dems stood to gain big from an imploding Labour. Whether they can regain that public opinion remains to be seen but given what they've done since it's not looking likely unless the Tories fuck up massively (and even then the media will manage it to not make it seem so bad).

The brand that probably has scope going forward given the increasing prevalence of the environmental situation are the Green's. If they can just quieten down their ultra-militant woke brigade and focus on their raison d'etre I feel this may be where the challenge will come from eventually.

Greens issues with the mentalists are even more endemic than Labour’s. Their members make their manifesto, it’s absolutely batshit for a serious political party. They get the grumpy leftie and Grendel vote now, but as soon as there’s any eyes on them voters would run a mile.

Hell I’m both a leftie and a tree hugger, it’s my number one priority, and I couldn’t vote Green.

 

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[David O'Day]

Would give Labour a boost

 

[shmmeee]

It'll be well before the mid 2030s - the brexit honeymoon isn't built to last and would be starting wain if it wasn't for covid and also voters get bored of parties and people will get bored of the tories.

You’re looking at it the wrong way. It isn’t “Brexit made the Tories look good” it was “Labour’s response to Brexit made it look bad”. How Brexit turns out or how people feel about the Tories won’t matter they’ll just remember Labour didn’t listen to people like them. That shit sticks for generations, see Thatcher.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Greens issues with the mentalists are even more endemic than Labour’s. Their members make their manifesto, it’s absolutely batshit for a serious political party. They get the grumpy leftie and Grendel vote now, but as soon as there’s any eyes on them voters would run a mile.

Hell I’m both a leftie and a tree hugger, it’s my number one priority, and I couldn’t vote Green.

Not arguing with any of that, but the 'brand' Green is on the up. Probably some of the stuff resonates with the very young but their priorities will change as they age and probably migrate away if they don't get a handle on their more mad positions.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Would give Labour a boost

Given how badly they're doing it might reduce the number of people being parachuted into 'safe seats' (because there won't be many) and so it'll become more local activists involved who will know people in those areas and their issues.

 

[shmmeee]

Given how badly they're doing it might reduce the number of people being parachuted into 'safe seats' (because there won't be many) and so it'll become more local activists involved who will know people in those areas and their issues.

MP selection has negligible impact on election results outside a few extreme outliers. That’s just a lie MPs tell themselves to feel better.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

MP selection has negligible impact on election results outside a few extreme outliers. That’s just a lie MPs tell themselves to feel better.

Probably not but the way things are going may as well give it a try, esp in the old 'red wall'

 

[David O'Day]

You’re looking at it the wrong way. It isn’t “Brexit made the Tories look good” it was “Labour’s response to Brexit made it look bad”. How Brexit turns out or how people feel about the Tories won’t matter they’ll just remember Labour didn’t listen to people like them. That shit sticks for generations, see Thatcher.

That may be but as the brexit goldmine doesn't appear the lest that matters.

Also I wouldn't compare the destroying of a whole generation of working class people because you had a boner for economically illiterate Austrian economists with backing a peoples vote.

When the government doesn't replace the ERDF money things will start to change again.

 

[wingy]

Anyway unpaid bill from October resulting in a ccj.
Possibly a handily placed little snippet of gossip backing up his woes that he's not paid enough .
Expect the PM salary to inflate by around double.

 

[wingy]

Isn't it wonderful to see the property market overheat giving away taxes to inflate the asking prices of a fair bit of tat.
At the rediculous point again where you can't get a reduction even when you've had a full structural pointing out various serious fault's need addressing.
Estate agents are about as professional , technical or scientific as uber driver's.

 

[Deleted member 11652]

@PVA @shmmeee @David O'Day @Ian1779

 

[shmmeee]

Isn't it wonderful to see the property market overheat giving away taxes to inflate the asking prices of a fair bit of tat.
At the rediculous point again where you can't get a reduction even when you've had a full structural pointing out various serious fault's need addressing.
Estate agents are about as professional , technical or scientific as uber driver's.

Estate agents are seen as the bottom of the property chain. And you should see the top!

Only moved in at the weekend, wonder if I should sell up and make a profit

 

[fatso]

The thing is the trust in Labour in these communities was economic not cultural originally. You voted Labour because you knew your shop steward or your union rep and would be drenched in workplace politics.

Once that was unhooked, the cultural chasm between the liberal middle class wonks and the conservative (small c) workers was exposed.

So getting their traditional voter coalition together now is virtually impossible. What do you offer the working man who feels like he has everything?

It would really need to be a Liberal not a Labour Party and I don’t know what that looks like in modern Britain or where it gets it’s voter coalition. But the Lib Dem’s seem to do well in the shires and the like that were traditionally Conservative. Maybe there’s a new coalition there?

All depends how long the Brexit honeymoon lasts I guess. The amount of political capital that bought the Tories can’t be underestimated. Thatcher was an equivalent and it took twenty years for them to be cleaned of that stench. So you’re looking at mid 2030s before Labour can rehabilitate themselves.

Grim.

Worryingly, I find myself agreeing with you again.
Kudos for recognising that change is desperately needed, rather than blindingly banging the same old drum.
The fact is, this current version of the labour party no longer appeals to people who put X's in boxes. It's nothing to do with class, wages or where you live, personalities, or anything else, the only message that labour has is ... "we arnt them"
And that's no longer good enough.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Worryingly, I find myself agreeing with you again.
Kudos for recognising that change is desperately needed, rather than blindingly banging the same old drum.
The fact is, this current version of the labour party no longer appeals to people who put X's in boxes. It's nothing to do with class, wages or where you live, personalities, or anything else, the only message that labour has is ... "we arnt them"
And that's no longer good enough.

I don't think may are saying things don't need to change. I'm certainly not.

The argument is it seems no matter which way they look to change people still don't want to vote for them. Tories seem to have done pretty well this election by 'not being Labour'. They do have messages (although they don't sell them very well) that would appear to appeal to the general consensus of what people say they want. Only to then go and vote for the complete opposite.

I'm not a Labour supporter. I didn't vote Labour this time around for any of the three positions up for grabs. I can understand that Labour aren't appealing. But what I can't understand is how that then translates to people voting for the Tories instead. You could vote LD, Green or spoil the ballet. Even just not bother. So what is it about the Tories that makes people vote for them once they decide they can't vote Labour instead of the other options out there? No-one seems to be able to answer that with anything that makes any logical sense.

 

[David O'Day]

Worryingly, I find myself agreeing with you again.
Kudos for recognising that change is desperately needed, rather than blindingly banging the same old drum.
The fact is, this current version of the labour party no longer appeals to people who put X's in boxes. It's nothing to do with class, wages or where you live, personalities, or anything else, the only message that labour has is ... "we arnt them"
And that's no longer good enough.

To be fair a lot of people vote Tory as "the aren't Labour"

 

[fatso]

To be fair a lot of people vote Tory as "the aren't Labour"

True. Maybe we need a viable alternative to 2 party politics, yes we have lib dems, greens etc, but I just dont see them as having the answers to anything other than 1 or 2 issues.

And if people are going to bother voting, they want their vote to mean something, so its only the 2 main parties that come into consideration (for the majority of people at least)

The worrying thing for labour is that if they continue their decline, they wont even be the second biggest political party.

I've been a floating voter for most of my adult life, and I voted for Boris at the last election, but I'm worried that his overwhelming majority is actually unhealthy. You always need a strong opposition to hold the government of the day to account, and we just dont have that any more, and time is running out for labour to make any inroads, they have 2 years to become viable and relevant or Boris will end up with 100+ seats, and that's a dictatorship, not democracy!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

True. Maybe we need a viable alternative to 2 party politics, yes we have lib dems, greens etc, but I just dont see them as having the answers to anything other than 1 or 2 issues.

Lib Dems suffer from the system we have. They've had pretty decent voting shares over the past 40 years really (currently in a dip) but FPTP means people often vote for another party more likely to win that seat.

of course... this is why they're for PR

 

[shmmeee]

Worryingly, I find myself agreeing with you again.
Kudos for recognising that change is desperately needed, rather than blindingly banging the same old drum.
The fact is, this current version of the labour party no longer appeals to people who put X's in boxes. It's nothing to do with class, wages or where you live, personalities, or anything else, the only message that labour has is ... "we arnt them"
And that's no longer good enough.

I think you’re right in terms of messaging, but as a member I disagree that’s the truth. I want climate action, I want higher wages, I want better public services. It bothers me that Labour’s messaging doesn’t even speak to me as a member. I don’t even know who it does speak to.

 

[David O'Day]

Fair fucks Glasgow

Police release men from immigration van blocking Glasgow street

Ch Supt Mark Sutherland says the pair had to be let go to protect safety and public health.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ian1779]

Tories and their policies to appeal to the broader public. How they fuck do they get away with this shit?

 

[Deleted member 4439]

What she said on radio 4 was clumsy, but the government have clarified that protection won't be given to holocaust deniers. That's at universities of course - what happens inside the Labour party is another matter.

 

[David O'Day]

Tories and their policies to appeal to the broader public. How they fuck do they get away with this shit?

The same legislation makes unis sign up to the IHRA definition of AS which this would be against.

It's a weird mess of a bill

 

[shmmeee]

What she said on radio 4 was clumsy, but the government have clarified that protection won't be given to holocaust deniers. That's at universities of course - what happens inside the Labour party is another matter.

Then who will it give protection to? It doesn’t override the EA or hate speech laws.

Government by virtue signalling. Just like with ID cards.

 

[David O'Day]

What she said on radio 4 was clumsy, but the government have clarified that protection won't be given to holocaust deniers. That's at universities of course - what happens inside the Labour party is another matter.

Mate you'll believe any fucking shite won't you.

what she was the truth at that time until the government got a battering for it and then pretended it didn't happen.

Will it protect islamophobes? well what happens inside the Tory part is another matter

 

[David O'Day]

Then who will it give protection to? It doesn’t override the EA or hate speech laws.

Government by virtue signalling. Just like with ID cards.

Why argue with that floof

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Then who will it give protection to? It doesn’t override the EA or hate speech laws.

Government by virtue signalling. Just like with ID cards.

Hopefully protection to academics and academic debate, and I simply don't agree that it;s virtue signalling but instead acting on a perceived need to protect freedom of expression. There's been some very wrong de-platforming. I applaud anything that can be done to stop that and its direct and indirect effect of freedom of speech and thought.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Mate you'll believe any fucking shite won't you.

what she was the truth at that time until the government got a battering for it and then pretended it didn't happen.

Will it protect islamophobes? well what happens inside the Tory part is another matter

Words fail me if you believe that they would like to protect holocaust deniers.

 

[ccfctommy]

Fair fucks Glasgow

Police release men from immigration van blocking Glasgow street

Ch Supt Mark Sutherland says the pair had to be let go to protect safety and public health.

www.bbc.co.uk

Don't know the ins and outs of this, but that's mob rule is it not?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Hopefully protection to academics and academic debate, and I simply don't agree that it;s virtue signalling but instead acting on a perceived need to protect freedom of expression. There's been some very wrong de-platforming. I applaud anything that can be done to stop that and its direct and indirect effect of freedom of speech and thought.

Freedom of speech = freedom to deplatform, there is no inherent right of anybody to be given time to speak to students. It is down to the freedom of the university to decide (with steer from students). More culture war drivel that you're lapping up.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

True. Maybe we need a viable alternative to 2 party politics, yes we have lib dems, greens etc, but I just dont see them as having the answers to anything other than 1 or 2 issues.

And if people are going to bother voting, they want their vote to mean something, so its only the 2 main parties that come into consideration (for the majority of people at least)

The worrying thing for labour is that if they continue their decline, they wont even be the second biggest political party.

I've been a floating voter for most of my adult life, and I voted for Boris at the last election, but I'm worried that his overwhelming majority is actually unhealthy. You always need a strong opposition to hold the government of the day to account, and we just dont have that any more, and time is running out for labour to make any inroads, they have 2 years to become viable and relevant or Boris will end up with 100+ seats, and that's a dictatorship, not democracy!

It might not be the most popular view, but I really like our electoral system (FPTP). It produces disproportionate winners and losers, but it mostly allows for strong governance. You have the odd decade where parliament is weak (1970s and 2010s).

To take 2019 as an example, you’ve had the stress of Brexit on the electorate and parliamentary deadlock with no end in sight. The strong Tory majority allowed the country to finally see Brexit through and alleviate what was becoming a toxic political environment. That’s the beauty of majoritarian electoral systems.

On the continent, proportional representative systems lead to more fragmented political systems, and that’s not a good thing. Frankly, would we want the political system of Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy? Germany has had a grand coalition for most of the 2010s because neither major party had a coalition partner it found acceptable.

I’m not a Tory, nor a Brexiteer.

 

[Deleted member 11652]

Why argue with that floof

Scared to argue with @SkyBlueDom26 after last time ent you. Little goon

 

[fatso]

It might not be the most popular view, but I really like our electoral system (FPTP). It produces disproportionate winners and losers, but it mostly allows for strong governance. You have the odd decade where parliament is weak (1970s and 2010s).

To take 2019 as an example, you’ve had the stress of Brexit on the electorate and parliamentary deadlock with no end in sight. The strong Tory majority allowed the country to finally see Brexit through and alleviate what was becoming a toxic political environment. That’s the beauty of majoritarian electoral systems.

On the continent, proportional representative systems lead to more fragmented political systems, and that’s not a good thing. Frankly, would we want the political system of Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy? Germany has had a grand coalition for most of the 2010s because neither major party had a coalition partner it found acceptable.

I’m not a Tory, nor a Brexiteer.

I agree with what you've said upto a point.

But when does a strong working majority tip over to the point where even a backbench revolt along with combined opposition prevents a prime minister bulldozing through legislation that is anti democratic?

For the foreseeable future at least, we are effectively living in a 1 party state. And that isn't healthy, and nor does it look like changing anytime soon.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Freedom of speech = freedom to deplatform, there is no inherent right of anybody to be given time to speak to students. It is down to the freedom of the university to decide (with steer from students). More culture war drivel that you're lapping up.

Ah, I hadn't realised that there was a voting system in place to execute deplatforming.

 

[It’sabatch87]

Seems like a nice piece of work!!
Labour suspends union boss Howard Beckett after he says Priti Patel should be ‘deported instead of refugees’

Labour suspends Howard Beckett after he says Priti Patel should be 'deported'

TOP trade union boss Howard Beckett today denied he was a racist and refused to quit the race to become the next Unite boss – after saying Priti Patel should be deported. He has been suspende…

www.thesun.co.uk

 

[clint van damme]

Seems like a nice piece of work!!
Labour suspends union boss Howard Beckett after he says Priti Patel should be ‘deported instead of refugees’

Labour suspends Howard Beckett after he says Priti Patel should be 'deported'

TOP trade union boss Howard Beckett today denied he was a racist and refused to quit the race to become the next Unite boss – after saying Priti Patel should be deported. He has been suspende…

www.thesun.co.uk

You linked the Facebook page of a
group who also want to deport her, along with every other non white Person in the country so you're obviously in agreement with him.
At least Beckett has apogised.