Do you want to discuss boring politics? (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
hill83
Well-Known Member
You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.
Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:
They also didn’t do this:
They did this:
Anecdotal but my dad has had mental health issues for around 15 years. (after being attacked with a hammer, which I found out about on the front page of the cov telegraph but that's another story).
He was pumped full of pills for years and turned to alcohol and has nearly died because of it a couple of times.
He was completely left to his own devices and turned down for any care due to his drinking. Luckily his ex works in social care and pulled a few strings to get him into rehab in Kent which is a charity run place. (He's still there now and hasn't had a drink since last October)
He'd 100% be dead without it. Can't be a stand alone story. He'd be dead without turning to charity. Doctors ignored him and didn't look into the huge amount of pills they were feeding him which all added to his liver damage. Basically told to fuck off and die by the system.
Also, although not quite related, he got compensation for being attacked by a previously mentioned hammer but due to the payout they stopped his disability money, which they continue to do regularly and the comp wasn't even worth talking about value wise. He also has to fill out forms and be revaluated every 3 months to receive the disability money which he can't do himself. And to add to that his compensation was instantly halved due to having a criminal record which I kid you not was a minor scuffle at a cov away game when he was 15.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Why? I wouldn’t.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Wasn’t scaremongering about the EU enforcing ID cards part of the vote leave campaign?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Given that this is apparently about protecting democracy how many of the changes recommended by the Russia report have been implemented by the Government? I’m hearing zero.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Report into Russian / outside interference in election found it to have happened and be an ongoing risk, and identified some recommendations = Not one recommendation has been implemented.
Election fraud in this country to be found to be so low, it is classed as non-existant = ID cards for voters
Legislation to make Protesting illegal = stopping reducing free speech.
Legislation to prevent universities for cancelling speakers that may have far right or xenophobic views and allow them to sue for damages = promoting 'free' speech
Fuck me this country is led by a load of Charlatans.
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Election fraud in this country to be found to be so low, it is classed as non-existant = ID cards for voters
Legislation to make Protesting illegal = stopping reducing free speech.
Legislation to prevent universities for cancelling speakers that may have far right or xenophobic views and allow them to sue for damages = promoting 'free' speech
Fuck me this country is led by a load of Charlatans.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Pressing like on that does't seem right. What a horrific thing to happen. Glad he's getting some help now.
My ex worked in mental health. Cuts were made (as part of the top down reorganisation Cameron promised wouldn't happen) which they knew would impact on the ability to provide the server and, at best, huge delays in getting people into the correct facilities. They raised their concerns to senior management and the response was a warning they'd be sacked if they spoke to the press.
Within a matter of months there was more than one death, including a murder, that was blamed on lack of available mental health services, exactly what they'd warned would happen and been told to shut up about.
The people higher up the chain are perfectly aware of these issues, they're just happy to ignore them.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Still waiting for Dom to feed back from his Tory Facebook groups....
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I couldn't hit 'like' either - it felt wrong.
Services in this country (and others to be fair) get cut so badly and it's the charities, volunteers and unpaid overtime that are left to pick up the slack. Salt of the earth decent people trying to make other's lives better and no matter how much they get foisted on them they try and fill the gap.
But sometimes I wonder if it might be better long term if they stopped for a bit. Show just how much we rely on the people that do these things for nothing to make anything work.
Governments might run the country, but these are the people that make the country run.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Problem is these people mostly suffer in silence away from society. Shut in homes or drinking themselves to death. Maybe you notice a few more homeless people.
People who’ve never had to work for a living like Johnson just don’t understand the problem. They can buy their way out of any issues.
hill83
Well-Known Member
My dads mate, and someone I considered a friend killed themselves on new years day last year after their disability money was stopped. Also had mental health issues.
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Politics is no longer about left or right, as the Tories have realised to their advantage | Lee de Wit
How should Labour respond to the Conservatives’ mix of social conservatism and state intervention, asks political psychologist Lee de Wit
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
It'll be closer than Hartlepool, local elections last week had the Tories only a few votes ahead on a small turnout.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Yes but can you throw a custard pie while sneakily helping yourself to the public purse?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It's a more 'metropolitan' constituency being in the big Leeds / Bradford conurbation, but can't see anything but an easy Tory win.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Think you’re right, which is kinda depressing considering it’s Jo Cox’s old seat and that’ll mean the ratty little terrorist got what he wanted.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Not really true, is it?
Labour haemorrhaged votes on both sides of the Brexit debate. Lost around 1 million votes to the Lib Dem’s and the Greens and about 800 thousand votes to the Brexit Party and the Tories. The Remainer’s were not happy happy with Labour lack of commitment to a second referendum whilst the Leaver’s weren’t happy at Labour’s lack of commitment to Brexit.
In the aftermath of the election, Momentum campaigners and even McDonnell conceded the manifesto program was meant for a 10 year government. On the doorstep, campaigners found people didn’t find the overall Labour offering to be credible.
Having popular policies is one thing, but it has to fit into a wider, viable program for government. Which was lacking a coherent policy on the issue of the day: Brexit.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Very much true when people are polled on their perceptions of the parties and politicians compared to their policy preferences. The Conservatives did a terrible job of their 10 years in government and got rewarded with a bumper majority off the back of a meaningless 3 word slogan.
It’s not about anything substantive really is it? Johnson polls as ‘looking more ministerial’ whereas Corbyn polled better on ‘cares about people like me’. And of course that woman on QT who voted Tory but seemed genuinely upset and surprised at her benefits being cut and it harder to get by. The formula is:
Long words
Posh accent
Acting like a rumbunctious clown
Wave the flag
Raise the pint
Bumper majority
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It is substantive
We used to run focus groups at Jaguar and it was owners of other luxury brands. So we’d ask what they’d like to see in a car and not tell them what marque the car was but then say the car meets all the criteria they apparently want
It gave people in engineering a warm feeling but it missed the point. The brand was tarnished and as soon as you revealed it’s a Jaguar no one wanted to be associated with it even though it ticked boxes. Old mans brand, behind the game, can’t be true, need to buy two as one will be in the garage
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Thank you for proving my point.
D
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You'd be deeply upset losing that poll!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I haven’t. My point is no one believes Labour will deliver these promises without substantial damage to the economy and individual lives.
Even McDonald admitted a run on the pound didn’t he? So if the Tories promises these they’d believe they are at least capable of potential delivery - Labour they would see as the cost of delivery would impact them negatively and would just assume they are incompetent liars
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Which is all a matter of perception and not the substantive truth. George Osborne admitted that ‘Labour crashed the economy’ was spin that worked better than even he had hoped. He also went on to concede that the Brown government acted reasonably and they would likely have reacted similarly to the crisis.
Realise it or not you have proven my point quite effectively
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No I haven’t. Labour have a massive credibility issue. It’s easy to pat themselves on the back and say the public like our policies. The problem is they are seen as incompetent and more importantly likely to cost more in the pocket
if you ask would you like zero income tax I’m sure people would
Get a focus group and show a picture of Len Mccloskey and ask would you vote for a party that gets funding from this man. If the answer is a resounding no what are you going to do
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
My point was perception overrides substance-all you are saying reinforces that. I’m sure we could show all the rather wealthy donors to the Tories if you really want to go down that route.
I’m sure Starmer laughing at the teaching unions killed that off anyway
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There is no substance to a manifesto - it isn’t a binding contract - McDonnell eventually admitted a lot was undeliverable in a term anyway didn’t he?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The 2019 manifesto became a desperate effort to take the narrative away from Brexit, even I had a hard time voting Labour then. The perception that Labour wrecked the economy in 2008 still carries strongly now and it originated from Osborne and Cameron’s bullshitting, admitted to be so years afterwards.
A manifesto is not binding but is also not meaningless as promises made to the electorate.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Exactly. The perception does not equal the truth. I've not been paying attention over the last few years but I know in reliability surveys Jag were one of the top rated brands but amongst the general public it still had that 'will it break down?' mentality towards it, as had any British name due to an archaic opinion based on the BL period of the 1970's. Mercs on the otherhand people had an opinion were bulletproof despite the build quality and reliability have fallen of a cliff.
You can then relate that to politics where you've got an opinion of Labour's abilities largely based still on a view from the 1970's whereas the Tories have a reputation enhanced way beyond what they are actually achieving.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, this kind of thinking is exactly why Labour finds itself out of touch with the electorate.
The party just doesn’t seem capable of confronting its own electoral failures. Generally, its traditional working class base feels like the Labour Party is a party for the cities and middle class graduates. Brexit accelerated the disconnect for a number of reasons as, frankly, the Labour establishment failed to understand why people voted for Brexit in the first place. Increasingly, fringe social issues and a fixation on identity politics has only exasperated the disconnect between the Party and its traditional base.
It’s also worth noting that Labour has literally given up and made no effort to try and discredit the SNP to win back some Scottish seats. Hence, you’ve got the Tories as the second largest Scottish party now.
The Labour Party has shown nothing it’s learned anything from its wipeout in Scotland, and risks the same thing across the Red Wall.
There are serious issues with the Labour Party that it needs to confront or it’ll face electoral oblivion and/or extinction.
There are serious issues with the Labour Party that it needs to confront or it’ll face electoral oblivion and/or extinction.