Do you want to discuss boring politics? (312 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

Apparently 5 more red wall Tories are considering defecting...

Which goes to show they are only interested in protecting their political careers.

 

---

[PVA]

Which goes to show they are only interested in protecting their political careers.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

 

[shmmeee]

Labour should be a broad church but if they can welcome a guy that voted for flooding our rivers with shite, not giving food to hungry kids and restricting the right to protest then they can certainly welcome a lifelong member and activist who has been an MP for decades, is still a member and was their leader a few years ago.

This isn’t broad church politics it’s PR and they’re showing hundreds of thousands of people they’re not wanted.

He’s welcome if he apologises for saying antisemtiism claims were a plot. That he won’t says more about Corbyn than Labour.

 

[Liquid Gold]

He’s welcome if he apologises for saying antisemtiism claims were a plot. That he won’t says more about Corbyn than Labour.

He said, factually and in line with IHRA approved guidelines, that he acknowledges it happened and that one case was too many but it was vastly overstated for political gain.

I don't disagree with a word of it and it definitely says more about the current Labour leadership that they want to move to post-truth politics.

 

[shmmeee]

He said, factually and in line with IHRA approved guidelines, that he acknowledges it happened and that one case was too many but it was vastly overstated for political gain.

I don't disagree with a word of it and it definitely says more about the current Labour leadership that they want to move to post-truth politics.

And there’s his problem. Like Johnson he can’t just apologise but clings to the idea jewish members were only offended because of a media conspiracy.

 

[chiefdave]

And with open selection I doubt they would chose such a charlatan to represent them.

Apparently a CLP meeting has been called for tonight but don't know much about the internal workings of the Labour Party to know if there's much they can do about it but they don't sound happy.

 

[Liquid Gold]

And there’s his problem. Like Johnson he can’t just apologise but clings to the idea jewish members were only offended because of a media conspiracy.

He said anti-Semitism was "absolutely abhorrent" and "one anti-Semite is one too many" in the party.

He is a a Labour member and has fought for Labour governments all his life but isn't able to run when a bloke that has been voting with the Tory whip until yesterday can? It stinks.

 

[clint van damme]

And there’s his problem. Like Johnson he can’t just apologise but clings to the idea jewish members were only offended because of a media conspiracy.

What about the Jewish members that support(ed) him, wrong type?

 

[chiefdave]

This isn’t broad church politics it’s PR and they’re showing hundreds of thousands of people they’re not wanted.

You can't be talking about a broad church when on the day a Conservative MP joined Labour you had Reeves talking about falling membership being a good thing as the members leaving "should never have joined the Labour Party. They never shared our values".

 

[Liquid Gold]

You can't be talking about a broad church when on the day a Conservative MP joined Labour you had Reeves talking about falling membership being a good thing as the members leaving "should never have joined the Labour Party. They never shared our values".

That "How can they be trusted with the county's finances when they can't manage their own" line is definitely being warmed up for election time.

 

[Frostie]

Oh dear... Wonder how she'll manage to whitewash that?

She'll be very disappointed that they weren't all "double deleting" emails as she'd instructed.

 

[David O'Day]

I'd rather elections were won by somebody that was planning on fixing the structural inequalities in British society that stop people lumping for Boris Johnson and Brexit as their only options.

This liberal bullshit of 'slightly better than the other side' isn't improving things. Look at the polling in America. We're going to end up with Trump coming back more emboldened than ever. In Britain the country doesn't need a one term Labour government that does nothing of note to change things and lets a refreshed Tories back in a few years later.

Trump isn't going to win anything. That's just utter bollocks and is the tired nonsense continuation of the drivel that said Trump would win in 2020.

Also the labour party are never going to win from a Labour left position. MacDonald, Atlee, Wilson and Blair were not from the left of the party.

 

[David O'Day]

Apparently a CLP meeting has been called for tonight but don't know much about the internal workings of the Labour Party to know if there's much they can do about it but they don't sound happy.

The Bury South CLP members who actually appeared on telly and by name in the press where ok with it.

But The Bury South CLP will get to choose who stands as the Labour Candidate in the next election. The most the NEC can do is pick a shortlist and it still has to go through a selection meeting where the CLP vote.

There is nothing a CLP or any other parties local association can do to a sitting MP outside of an election. If the PLP has given him the whip he will sit as a the Labour MP for Bury South until there is an election.

 

[David O'Day]

That "How can they be trusted with the county's finances when they can't manage their own" line is definitely being warmed up for election time.

Really? That doesn't matter now. Polling still shows the public gives the tories a lead in the economy. It is not effecting voting choice

 

[PVA]

Fabricant is running Dorries very close for 'thickest Tory' award at the moment

 

[shmmeee]

What about the Jewish members that support(ed) him, wrong type?

This is all getting a bit All Lives Matter here.

A significant number of Jewish members experienced abuse, and deserve an apology that isn’t caveated.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Trump isn't going to win anything. That's just utter bollocks and is the tired nonsense continuation of the drivel that said Trump would win in 2020.

Also the labour party are never going to win from a Labour left position. MacDonald, Atlee, Wilson and Blair were not from the left of the party.

tbf, MacDonald nearly destroyed the Labour Party!

Wilson moved left while in power, and both he and Attlee were far left of what we have now. Although tbf Ted Heath was left of half the current Labour Party!

 

[Liquid Gold]

This is all getting a bit All Lives Matter here.

A significant number of Jewish members experienced abuse, and deserve an apology that isn’t caveated.

A significant number of Labour members were spat at and abused on the doorstep campaigning for a Labour government.

They haven't received an apology for being smeared as anti-semitic, in fact those that have now left the party (200,000 people) have today been called anti-semites by the shadow chancellor.

There is an absolutism about Corbyn but if you're on the right of the party you get away with whatever you fucking want.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Trump isn't going to win anything. That's just utter bollocks and is the tired nonsense continuation of the drivel that said Trump would win in 2020.

Also the labour party are never going to win from a Labour left position. MacDonald, Atlee, Wilson and Blair were not from the left of the party.

I never said Trump would win in 2020, the polls were clear it was going to be a Biden win and they were impressively accurate. The same polls had Biden ahead throughout the run up and during Trumps presidency. They now have Trump as a very clear winner.

Tired nonsense is holding on to one particular point of view in light of changing circumstances.

 

[shmmeee]

A significant number of Labour members were spat at and abused on the doorstep campaigning for a Labour government.

They haven't received an apology for being smeared as anti-semitic, in fact those that have now left the party (200,000 people) have today been called anti-semites by the shadow chancellor.

There is an absolutism about Corbyn but if you're on the right of the party you get away with whatever you fucking want.

Antisemitism was a real issue for some members. Obviously people who don’t like the party played that up but it’s the refusal to accept the former without bringing up the latter that’s the issue.

The only way it’s left vs right of the party is that the left keep refusing to engage in politics and handing open goals to their internal enemies.

 

[chiefdave]

Antisemitism was a real issue for some members. Obviously people who don’t like the party played that up but it’s the refusal to accept the former without bringing up the latter that’s the issue.

Isn't the reverse true now though? The idea that there was no anti-semitsm pre-Corbyn, masses during Corbyn's time as leader and now he's gone its not a problem again seems unlikely to me but that's certainly the impression you would get as an outsider.

 

[Liquid Gold]

The only way it’s left vs right

"Reeves said that a drop in Labour membership, which has reduced the party’s income, was a price worth paying for shedding unwelcome supporters and removing the “stain” of anti-Semitism from the party. "

Sure, it's the left playing politics with this.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

If anything it’s given Johnson a stay of execution

Starmer clearly doesn’t care about whose in his party or what they stand for

Are labour voters in a constituency going to vote for a Tory - hilarious stuff

*who's

 

[shmmeee]

Isn't the reverse true now though? The idea that there was no anti-semitsm pre-Corbyn, masses during Corbyn's time as leader and now he's gone its not a problem again seems unlikely to me but that's certainly the impression you would get as an outsider.

Im not sure I’ve seen that argument made, rather that the level increased with Corbyn and decreased after he left. That’s what I’ve seen jewish members say anyway.

 

[Ian1779]

Antisemitism was a real issue for some members. Obviously people who don’t like the party played that up but it’s the refusal to accept the former without bringing up the latter that’s the issue.

The only way it’s left vs right of the party is that the left keep refusing to engage in politics and handing open goals to their internal enemies.

There is no excuse for antisemitism you are not going to find anyone that disagrees. There is also no excuse for Islamophobia which the Labour Party seems to have a bit of a blind spot about currently but appears less important in resolving. We can’t have a system where this becomes hierarchical.

Let’s be honest both of these things are also intertwined to the Israel/Palenstine conflict and people views and positions on the matter… which makes it a lot more complex.

 

[shmmeee]

"Reeves said that a drop in Labour membership, which has reduced the party’s income, was a price worth paying for shedding unwelcome supporters and removing the “stain” of anti-Semitism from the party. "

Sure, it's the left playing politics with this.

No the left are incapable of playing politics. That’s the exact problem. And I’d agree that I won’t shed tears over losing a few cranks from the party.

 

[Liquid Gold]

No the left are incapable of playing politics. That’s the exact problem. And I’d agree that I won’t shed tears over losing a few cranks from the party.

Left are bad at playing politics I agree.

It isn't a few cranks though, it's hundreds of thousands of mainly decent people. I'm no longer a member so am I a crank to you?

 

[shmmeee]

There is no excuse for antisemitism you are not going to find anyone that disagrees. There is also no excuse for Islamophobia which the Labour Party seems to have a bit of a blind spot about currently but appears less important in resolving. We can’t have a system where this becomes hierarchical.

Let’s be honest both of these things are also intertwined to the Israel/Palenstine conflict and people views and positions on the matter… which makes it a lot more complex.

And again “whatabout” “Palestine”. Do you honestly not see the issue here? It really is the lefts BLM/ALM issue. Saying there is a problem with antisemitism isn’t anything more than that. It’s not a comment on the media or internal enemies or Palestine or islamophobia.

 

[Ian1779]

No the left are incapable of playing politics. That’s the exact problem. And I’d agree that I won’t shed tears over losing a few cranks from the party.

So the people that have left are antisemites??

 

[shmmeee]

Left are bad at playing politics I agree.

It isn't a few cranks though, it's hundreds of thousands of mainly decent people. I'm no longer a member so am I a crank to you?

Then clearly it’s not you being spoken about. But you’d have to have your head particularly far in the sand not to see some of the disgraceful comments some members were making about Jews.

 

[clint van damme]

This is all getting a bit All Lives Matter here.

A significant number of Jewish members experienced abuse, and deserve an apology that isn’t caveated.

I'm not saying they didn't, they clearly did.
But it was also an issue that was clearly weaponised by some. A point many Jewish members agree with. Some of the abuse the likes of Michael Rosen have taken for taking that point of view is clearly veering into 'wrong kind of Jew' territory.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Then clearly it’s not you being spoken about. But you’d have to have your head particularly far in the sand not to see some of the disgraceful comments some members were making about Jews.

But you're happy to lose the membership, activism and fees of people like me, go along with the front bench in calling me an anti-Semite instead of working as a broad church party to kick out the few racist scumbags?

 

[Ian1779]

Then clearly it’s not you being spoken about. But you’d have to have your head particularly far in the sand not to see some of the disgraceful comments some members were making about Jews.

Every member that made these disgraceful comments should have been expelled. This is the job of the compliance and discipline unit. So did the report say it has happened?

 

[Grendel]

No the left are incapable of playing politics. That’s the exact problem. And I’d agree that I won’t shed tears over losing a few cranks from the party.

It is correct if labour are serious about being a political party again the 80’s retro band of Momentum need to be chucked

 

[Ian1779]

And again “whatabout” “Palestine”. Do you honestly not see the issue here? It really is the lefts BLM/ALM issue. Saying there is a problem with antisemitism isn’t anything more than that. It’s not a comment on the media or internal enemies or Palestine or islamophobia.

I can see the issue here. But we rarely talk about the absolute facts in this whole discussion. How many cases of AS of members was reported to the appropriate body for them to be disciplined, and what is this as a proportion of membership. Where this is proven I hope all have been expelled.
The fact that in a sample of 1000 allegations, over 800 were attributed to non-Labour members making it impossible to action.
Luciana Berger was horribly abused and those responsible were charged and sentenced… the whole affair was attributed to Labour members and yet they were not.
You can’t deal with a small core of horrible racists and get rid of them when you are having to deal with things outside of your remit which you can’t fix.