Sick Boy
Super Moderator
If they’re transitioning, arguably a men’s changing room is also not going to be safe either.
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (33 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
Nick
Administrator
"look at me I'm a shagger"
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
You literally just said women shouldn't use women's changing rooms
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
And someone who was born a man but feels strongly enough that they’re not to undergo the full transition process, including hormone treatment and surgery, should go where exactly?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I literally didn’t. I personally don’t use communal changing rooms even now and that was the context. You can sod off saying I don’t care about vulnerable women.
Nick
Administrator
If they haven't had treatment or surgery. They should go in the men's.
Otherwise what's to stop me deciding I'm a woman today and going in their showers?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
If they’ve not had treatment or surgery, then it’s different, IMO.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
[QUOT
Again that’s not the point
You tried to make a point people will have a view in 50 years differently - so women will have less rights then - what a world
Again that’s not the point
You tried to make a point people will have a view in 50 years differently - so women will have less rights then - what a world
Nick
Administrator
As for personal experience, I don't care how I look for saying it. A bloke in a wig followed my then 7 or 8 year old daughter into the toilets and tried to speak to her.
Luckily for them they did one before my daughter told me else id have taken their head and wig clean off.
Luckily for them they did one before my daughter told me else id have taken their head and wig clean off.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yes, it's tricky isn't it. But back to the basic point, saying trans women are women is a dangerous stance to hold. It's just not that simple. Both Mordaunt and Labour are wrong.
You can't just be able to say you are transitioning into a woman and therefore be allowed into women's spaces.
It needs some very careful thought. It's not an anti trans stance. As Clint says, it's a loophole at the moment that could be exploited.
I see the point that you and @shmmeee are making. I disagree with the underlying suggestion that being trans should be somehow associated with unscrupulous men wanting to find “loopholes” and novel ways to attack women. Unless someone can show that that’s the typical trans experience, that shouldn’t be the default place to start the argument - and yet here we are again.
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
The end game is a womens shower with no women in it, just a bunch of disappointed blokes standing around looking at each others cocks.
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Otis
Well-Known Member
That's the thing right there in a nutshell.
Nick
Administrator
'I was sexually assaulted by a transgender rapist in a women's jail'
Waiving her anonymity in an interview with The Mail on Sunday, Cheryle Kempton is the first victim to speak out in the hope that it prevents other women facing a similar fate.
Nick
Administrator
Sounds like Sunday mornings at football.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of transgender people. It must be a very difficult thing to go through. But woman's safety must come first in my opinion.
I think post surgery trans gender women is a different argument to be honest and would be more sympathetic to them having access.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
To a psychologist?
I get what you’re driving at, and TBH the worst thing about modern trans activism is by pushing hard it’s broken an unwritten rule that been around for ages, which is basically: if you’re serious enough to get surgery and pass well you can crack on. There’s only a few of you and you’re mostly people with serious psychological distress who need this.
However once you start pulling at that thread it all unravels. It’s not fair on those that could never pass, so we have to get rid of the passing requirement. And what does a woman look like anyway? A woman is a woman in jeans and a T-shirt as she is in a summer dress, so any clothing and looks go. And not everyone can afford or do surgery, but they’re just as trans, so now all we’re left with is “dysphoria”, an internal state, not externally verifiable as a qualifier. Which functionally is the same as no qualifier at all.
Im not sure you can put that genie back in the bottle. And to be very cold about it, it’s not societies job to play along in someone else’s delusion because of the distress that would cause otherwise. Ultimately you need to put effort into breaking down gender norms and researching effective treatment for dysphoria. But those arent flashy and quick.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
You keep avoiding the issue but claim you understand it. This is a discussion on self identification not surgery
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I’m not arguing about unisex changing rooms or facilities. I’ve said here already my wife is scared enough coming home that she changes her route and talks to me on the phone until she’s back.
What I’m arguing is that a man who goes through the full transition process, which takes years to complete, should be allowed to use the women’s facilities. I am not saying that you should be able to say ‘I identify as a woman so let me in’.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Well that's your summer weekends sorted then I take it.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I think you might have posted this on the wrong forum, mate.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I have genuinely never argued that’s what should be allowed.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
So I think we're all pretty much on the same page and Grendel has summed it up here
Huh?
I think you’ve been quite clear in the past that you find it unfair as a man to have to hear people share stories about sexual violence etc and make assumptions about your intentions. Do you not think trans people should feel aggrieved when people talk about them in the same way?
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not. It was a subtle way of inviting you all.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
I quoted an example of a man in a shower with full genitalia and identified as a woman and you said a woman who had a problem didn’t have to share changing rooms and your wife is fine with it!
Otis
Well-Known Member
Love that.
I don’t think that’s what a trans person is, but OK.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The fundamental question here is “how trans is enough to make women feel safe?” data suggests the answer is “surgery” and I think a majority would accept a law that was basically what we have but you need surgery for a GRC and womens groups were still allowed female only groups for support (because frankly whatever works man). I think that would work for prisons too, where the main horror is the idea of an intact rapist let loose in a womens prison.
I also think there’s scope to look at rules that don’t allow women to play in mens leagues and clarification around intersex athletes (perhaps as well as more categories) to make sports more inclusive. As well as any where sex differences don’t apply.
I’m not sure a majority of trans activists would accept that though
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Then maybe don’t ascribe views to me that I don’t hold. In the PSHE sessions I give in school we spend a good amount of time on how boys can make girls and women feel more at ease around us in their daily life.
Yet I was accused of saying women shouldn’t be allowed to use their own changing rooms and that I didn’t care about women who had previously been assaulted. My wife gets scared stiff of that each time she travels on her own.