Sheff United request (5 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Easy to explain.

So everyone should have a 10% pay rise? This puts up the prices of what they do/produce. Transportation costs go up. And in turn inflation continues to go up. So the pay rises are lost to inflation. So another big pay rise is needed to make up for inflation. And so on.

What about mortgages/rent having to go up as well?

What is needed is a higher wage for those not earning as much. Inflation to go back down. This then means people are better off. Wanting pay rises higher than high inflation makes it worse.

Are wages 100% of business costs?

 

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[Liquid Gold]

Easy to explain.

So everyone should have a 10% pay rise? This puts up the prices of what they do/produce. Transportation costs go up. And in turn inflation continues to go up. So the pay rises are lost to inflation. So another big pay rise is needed to make up for inflation. And so on.

What about mortgages/rent having to go up as well?

What is needed is a higher wage for those not earning as much. Inflation to go back down. This then means people are better off. Wanting pay rises higher than high inflation makes it worse.

That's push inflation though. What we're experiencing is pull inflation.

We're a service economy and if wages don't rise then the flow of money slows and it fucks us all.

 

[shmmeee]

Well I also worked at Fords for 15 years these practices were first developed by them which was taken over and refined by the Japanese. ( 6 SIGMA)
I now work for a small company we had a 5% pay rise, its these people that get further behind I dont need to work so dont make a fuss but do feel sorry for the younger ones.
Higher pay rises are pushing up the prices these small companies have to pay for stock leaving less for the workers.
Catch 22.

Higher prices come from supply chain not workers though. Covid and oil more to blame than Dave in the warehouse.

 

[shmmeee]

That's push inflation though. What we're experiencing is pull inflation.

We're a service economy and if wages don't rise then the flow of money slows and it fucks us all.

Not just a service economy but a consumer spending economy. Restricting wages is like selling your car to save on petrol then having to lose your job cos you can’t get there.

 

[Sick Boy]

SDP have announced a pact with Reform UK haven't they

Isn't that the Farage party?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Are wages 100% of business costs?

And are wage increases to keep people from having less disposable income really inflationary? They are not creating additional demand

 

[TomS91]

HAHA no it will just become a tool, you know like a calculator when you was doing school exams ? AI wont ever replace people in my life time, and even if it did there would still be someone requiring my skills because I don't sit around on my ass and watch tv after work I improve my skills and knowledge

AI already is replacing humans

 

[Sick Boy]

AI already is replacing humans

In 10 years it’ll be able to create decent enough code that’ll cut down on the need for so many devs.

 

[Astute]

Are wages 100% of business costs?

Who has said it is?

The biggest hit to inflation is prices going up on essential items. Raw materials are going up. Just about everything is going up in price. And on top of this you have strikes that lose people wages.

So you go on strike because they won't give/can't afford to pay for it. Lose pay because of a strike? By the time you make that money back with the pay rise it is then time again to strike for the next pay rise.

Just like the Post Office. Losing hundreds of millions a year. It will end up costing thousands of jobs. Or do we only allow massive increases to those who work for a company with healthy profits?

 

[Astute]

That's push inflation though. What we're experiencing is pull inflation.

We're a service economy and if wages don't rise then the flow of money slows and it fucks us all.

We are all fucked if this inflation continues. Could even end up with 17% mortgage rates again.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Who has said it is?

The biggest hit to inflation is prices going up on essential items. Raw materials are going up. Just about everything is going up in price. And on top of this you have strikes that lose people wages.

So you go on strike because they won't give/can't afford to pay for it. Lose pay because of a strike? By the time you make that money back with the pay rise it is then time again to strike for the next pay rise.

Just like the Post Office. Losing hundreds of millions a year. It will end up costing thousands of jobs. Or do we only allow massive increases to those who work for a company with healthy profits?

The post office and royal mail are two entirely separate entities. It's royal mail staff on strike and that's paid out £500m in dividends so is not losing hundreds of million a year apart from not reinvesting profits.

 

[shmmeee]

And are wage increases to keep people from having less disposable income really inflationary? They are not creating additional demand

The argument is you’ll have to increase prices to pay the wages. They did analysis on Big Macs that a 100% wage rise would lead to a 4.3% price increase. Obviously different industries would be different.

The cheeseburger economics of the minimum wage - Oklahoma Policy Institute

When talking about raising the minimum wage, opponents sometimes claim that a higher minimum wage will raise the prices of goods, especially in labor-intensive industries like restaurants. This is sometimes accompanied by a jab such as “enjoy paying $20 for a cheeseburger.” However, when...

okpolicy.org

 

[shmmeee]

Who has said it is?

The biggest hit to inflation is prices going up on essential items. Raw materials are going up. Just about everything is going up in price. And on top of this you have strikes that lose people wages.

So you go on strike because they won't give/can't afford to pay for it. Lose pay because of a strike? By the time you make that money back with the pay rise it is then time again to strike for the next pay rise.

Just like the Post Office. Losing hundreds of millions a year. It will end up costing thousands of jobs. Or do we only allow massive increases to those who work for a company with healthy profits?

If a business is no longer profitable then why should workers subsidise it? Lots of industries die because they’re no longer economical. The trick is finding and supporting ones that are.

 

[Astute]

The post office and royal mail are two entirely separate entities. It's royal mail staff on strike and that's paid out £500m in dividends so is not losing hundreds of million a year apart from not reinvesting profits.

From reuters

UK's Royal Mail says it will do whatever it takes to transform

Britain's Royal Mail will do "whatever it takes" to turn around its business, its chief executive said on Thursday, as more postal strikes loom in the busy holiday period if the company fails to strike a deal with its largest labour union.

www.reuters.com

The former British postal monopoly still expects full-year adjusted operating loss for Royal Mail of around 350 million to 450 million pounds. It is targeting a return to a profit in 2024-25, helped by cost cuts.

Cost cuts?

 

[Astute]

If a business is no longer profitable then why should workers subsidise it? Lots of industries die because they’re no longer economical. The trick is finding and supporting ones that are.

So if a company can't afford big pay rises they should close and workers lose their jobs?

 

[shmmeee]

So if a company can't afford big pay rises they should close and workers lose their jobs?

Yes. Unless it’s of national importance then the govt should step in and it should be non profit.

You’re using the same argument as Union leaders who don’t want automation.

Why should workers accept reduced remuneration and not other suppliers? Let me put it another way, if a company can’t afford the price of steel what should it do?

 

[Astute]

Yes. Unless it’s of national importance then the govt should step in and it should be non profit.

You’re using the same argument as Union leaders who don’t want automation.

Why should workers accept reduced remuneration and not other suppliers? Let me put it another way, if a company can’t afford the price of steel what should it do?

Who has said reduced renumeration?

Price of steel?

No. Back to what you have said. If a company can't afford the massive pay rises wanted by you it should close.

Let's say a company made 100k last year. They employ 50 workers. They are all on 30k a year. 10% pay rise. All get an extra 3k. Adds up to 150k extra. Plus it would cost them more. They go from making 100k to under what you say should close putting 50 people out of work.

 

[shmmeee]

Who has said reduced renumeration?

Price of steel?

No. Back to what you have said. If a company can't afford the massive pay rises wanted by you it should close.

Let's say a company made 100k last year. They employ 50 workers. They are all on 30k a year. 10% pay rise. All get an extra 3k. Adds up to 150k extra. Plus it would cost them more. They go from making 100k to under what you say should close putting 50 people out of work.

Yes labour is a resource like steel or energy. You’re asking what should a company do if it can’t afford labour and I’m asking what do you suggest for any other resource?

You know the answer. The answer is raise prices, improve efficiency, or yes, close the business. That’s capitalism. That’s the deal: potential huge profits and innovation if you crack it, failure if you don’t. And if something is too important to fail then it needs to be government subsidised and IMO profit taking in that instance is immoral because profit is the reward for risk and there is no risk.

As I’ve shown with the Big Mac study though you’re presenting a false dichotomy. In reality prices would rise a little but not as much as wages rise so it’s OK and companies can make workers more productive or find other efficiencies if they want to reduce prices and sell more or increase profit.

Edit: you are saying reduced remuneration because that’s what not keeping up with inflation is.

 

[Astute]

Yes labour is a resource like steel or energy. You’re asking what should a company do if it can’t afford labour and I’m asking what do you suggest for any other resource?

You know the answer. The answer is raise prices, improve efficiency, or yes, close the business. That’s capitalism. That’s the deal: potential huge profits and innovation if you crack it, failure if you don’t. And if something is too important to fail then it needs to be government subsidised and IMO profit taking in that instance is immoral because profit is the reward for risk and there is no risk.

As I’ve shown with the Big Mac study though you’re presenting a false dichotomy. In reality prices would rise a little but not as much as wages rise so it’s OK and companies can make workers more productive or find other efficiencies if they want to reduce prices and sell more or increase profit.

Edit: you are saying reduced remuneration because that’s what not keeping up with inflation is.

Isn't true though is it.

Most companies are struggling because of Covid. They need all the help they can get. The help Shmmeee suggests is close them all down if they can't afford massive pay increases.

So the unemployment rate shoots up. Lots of people looking for a job. Wages are then held back because workers are easily replaced. You then end up with the opposite of what you want. And you have already closed lots of places not making a massive profit.

 

[Astute]

Edit: you are saying reduced remuneration because that’s what not keeping up with inflation is.

Renumeration is amount paid for work or a service given. Amount paid isn't going down.

 

[shmmeee]

Isn't true though is it.

Most companies are struggling because of Covid. They need all the help they can get. The help Shmmeee suggests is close them all down if they can't afford massive pay increases.

So the unemployment rate shoots up. Lots of people looking for a job. Wages are then held back because workers are easily replaced. You then end up with the opposite of what you want. And you have already closed lots of places not making a massive profit.

Then provide business support if that’s what’s needed. The government could cap energy further they could offer tax breaks, whatever. We’ve had full employment pretty much for ages and wages haven’t increased so excuse me if I don’t buy it.

Ultimately though society doesn’t owe you a living. The government should of course try and reduce costs for business where it can (like not leaving your biggest trading block) and should be trying to reduce the cost of life’s essentials like housing and energy so workers don’t need so much money to live.

Would you stop all businesses from ever going bust? Should the government have stepped in to keep Wasps afloat? Covid hit them hard they said. What are your criteria for subsidising business through reduced living standards for workers?

 

[shmmeee]

Renumeration is amount paid for work or a service given. Amount paid isn't going down.

Yes it is in real terms. The figure doesn’t matter. If you can’t buy as much shit with it this year as you could last then your pay has gone down.

 

[MAFF]

agreed i even reported it to be moved but seems theyre all on holiday

Snowflake

 

[JAM See]

I’m back in the uk over Xmas and I would love to take my fiancé for her first game and only game on when we’re there is sheff United so would it be possible to get two tickets? Will pay more than face value if needed .
TYIA

Any joy with getting tickets?

 

[Astute]

Would you stop all businesses from ever going bust? Should the government have stepped in to keep Wasps afloat? Covid hit them hard they said. What are your criteria for subsidising business through reduced living standards for workers?

Wow you turned that around

So me saying that companies shouldn't be put out of business by very high pay rises where you would close them and put all workers on the dole which has been twisted to I would save Wasps

 

[Astute]

Yes it is in real terms. The figure doesn’t matter. If you can’t buy as much shit with it this year as you could last then your pay has gone down.

Real terms and the way you tried to twist my words are two totally different things.

 

[Kieranp96]

Any joy with getting tickets?

already paid for them. so yes , got email confirmation to

 

[shmmeee]

Real terms and the way you tried to twist my words are two totally different things.

Ive just remembered why I stopped arguing with you on here.

 

[mark82]

Who has said reduced renumeration?

Price of steel?

No. Back to what you have said. If a company can't afford the massive pay rises wanted by you it should close.

Let's say a company made 100k last year. They employ 50 workers. They are all on 30k a year. 10% pay rise. All get an extra 3k. Adds up to 150k extra. Plus it would cost them more. They go from making 100k to under what you say should close putting 50 people out of work.

I'd say they're already fucked if they're paying out £1.5m in wages with revenue of £100k.

 

[mark82]

Ultimately, if the price of goods & services go up and wages do not, the economy falls on its arse.

 

[Astute]

I'd say they're already fucked if they're paying out £1.5m in wages with revenue of £100k.

Revenue?

This is getting as silly as usual.

 

[Astute]

Ultimately, if the price of goods & services go up and wages do not, the economy falls on its arse.

And if the wages go up too quickly the companies fail.

 

[Astute]

Ive just remembered why I stopped arguing with you on here.

Same here.

Next you will be saying our football club should fold as it can't afford afford a 10% pay rise for everyone. Because at the end of the day we are a business you want to close.

 

[shmmeee]

Same here.

Next you will be saying our football club should fold as it can't afford afford a 10% pay rise for everyone. Because at the end of the day we are a business you want to close.

And you’ll be saying everyone should work for free so no business ever fails.

 

[robbiethemole]

5 out of 7 pages on this thread arguing with Kieran? Ffs, I’m out