Shamima Begum (16 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Well on the plus side for me if it proves a popular decision for the centre and the centre right, which i think it is, Starmer will probably adopt as policy too.

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well yes he has what a surprise

Shamima Begum: Labour's Starmer says court was right to reject citizenship appeal

Opposition leader says judgment was 'the right decision', having previously described removal of Begum's citizenship in 2019 as 'the wrong decision'

www.middleeasteye.net

 

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[robbiekeane]

As much as I think she’s a c**t, I think ultimately we will have to let her back in and hopefully Chuck her in jail.

Can’t just be pulling peoples citizenships, slippery slope

 

[shmmeee]

There’s a whole host of people on social media arguing she’s old enough to take responsibility for her actions at 15, whilst simultaneously saying that 16 is too young to be able to apply for a GRC.

Work that one out.

She’s not old enough and 16 is too young for a GRC.

It’s the Venn diagram of people who think the Rotherham girls were groomed vs those who think Begum was that gets me. “15 year olds know what they’re doing” sounds awfully noncey to me.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You're correct. Every one of those fuckwits that joined ISIS was 'programmed'. Its very bizarre people want to defend this girl, she's become a fucking victim in this thread. SBT madness.

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Nobody is defending her - they're against the idea of removing citizenship from somebody due to something they have done and particularly something they did aged 15.

 

[Grendel]

Bizarre from Starmer perhaps he’s just playing to the gallery

 

[TomRad85]

Nobody is defending her - they're against the idea of removing citizenship from somebody due to something they have done and particularly something they did aged 15.

There's plenty above who sound like they are defending her tbf mate.

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[fernandopartridge]

Starmer's answer in an interview referred to above was a bit odd, you'd have thought a KC would just say: "the Court will have made its decision based on the information in front of it, having not seen the papers I cannot possibly comment further" but instead he just said he was sure the court was correct. Such a weird lack of confidence in himself.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

There's plenty above who sound like they are defending her tbf mate.

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It’s more complicated than you’re making out. Nobody is defending her actions.

- She was groomed and manipulated as a child.

- she shouldn’t have her citizenship removed.

- she should return to the UK to face a criminal court and be tried and punished for any crimes shes committed.

that’s the general gist of what people are saying

 

[Grendel]

Starmer's answer in an interview referred to above was a bit odd, you'd have thought a KC would just say: "the Court will have made its decision based on the information in front of it, having not seen the papers I cannot possibly comment further" but instead he just said he was sure the court was correct. Such a weird lack of confidence in himself.

He was pretty confident in the McKinnon case and was outraged he didn’t get his way to deport him for what would be a certain death sentence

 

[TomRad85]

It’s more complicated than you’re making out. Nobody is defending her actions.

- She was groomed and manipulated as a child.

- she shouldn’t have her citizenship removed.

- she should return to the UK to face a criminal court and be tried and punished for any crimes shes committed.

that’s the general gist of what people are saying

There's people putting their point across well, like Clint, then there's those giving a terrorist sympathy. Anyone who's not willfully blind can spot the difference in some of the posts above.
For what it's worth, I get Clints point but I'm saying I still don't care, anyone who joins ISIS can jog on. A point of view that is popular among most of the country I would think, including Conservative and Labour leadership.

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[SBT]

There's people putting their point across well, like Clint, then there's those giving a terrorist sympathy. Anyone who's not willfully blind can spot the difference in some of the posts above.

Not sure who you’re referring to there, but surely there’s a pretty big difference between being a terrorist sympathiser, and sympathising with someone losing their basic legal rights - even if they’ve done awful things. There’s no Shamima fan club here.

 

[TomRad85]

Not sure who you’re referring to there, but surely there’s a pretty big difference between being a terrorist sympathiser, and sympathising with someone losing their basic legal rights - even if they’ve done awful things. There’s no Shamima fan club here.

Willfully blind it is then.

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[SBT]

Willfully blind it is then.

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So you think there are various people in this thread with genuine terrorist sympathies?

 

[TomRad85]

So you think there are various people in this thread with genuine terrorist sympathies?

Sympathies for a terrorist rather than terrorist sympathies, a subtle difference, but yes looks like it.

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[SBT]

Sympathies for a terrorist rather than terrorist sympathies, a subtle difference, but yes looks like it.

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Likewise I think there’s a subtle difference between being concerned for our basic human rights, and laying awake all night worrying about poor Shemima. But if you’re just going to get called a secret ISIS lover either way then why bother.

 

[robbiekeane]

She’s not old enough and 16 is too young for a GRC.

It’s the Venn diagram of people who think the Rotherham girls were groomed vs those who think Begum was that gets me. “15 year olds know what they’re doing” sounds awfully noncey to me.

At 15 I was a little Twat smoking weed,, trying to buy knuckle dusters off ebay and sell them at school, and buying potassium nitrate online to make smoke bombs after reading the anarchist cookbook.

I also egged an old blokes house cause he set his dog on us once.

All prickish stuff.

Never ever thought about going off to join a terrorist organisation though….
Also, didn’t she at 20 years old say that the Ariana grande concert killings were justified or something?

She’s absolute scum of the earth and I have no sympathy for her and don’t think she was too young to know what’s right and wrong, so don’t buy into the whole “oh poor thing was groomed” argument.

Should be brought back to the UK and tried though.

 

[shmmeee]

At 15 I was a little Twat smoking weed,, trying to buy knuckle dusters off ebay and sell them at school, and buying potassium nitrate online to make smoke bombs after reading the anarchist cookbook.

I also egged an old blokes house cause he set his dog on us once.

All prickish stuff.

Never ever thought about going off to join a terrorist organisation though….
Also, didn’t she at 20 years old say that the Ariana grande concert killings were justified or something?

She’s absolute scum of the earth and I have no sympathy for her and don’t think she was too young to know what’s right and wrong, so don’t buy into the whole “oh poor thing was groomed” argument.

Should be brought back to the UK and tried though.

Were you groomed by an older man?

Do you think the girls in Rotherham were responsible for their actions?

 

[Grendel]

Likewise I think there’s a subtle difference between being concerned for our basic human rights, and laying awake all night worrying about poor Shemima. But if you’re just going to get called a secret ISIS lover either way then why bother.

I assume you disagree with the sanctions imposed on Graham Phillips without trial?

 

[SBT]

I assume you disagree with the sanctions imposed on Graham Phillips without trial?

I haven’t been following that one, sorry.

 

[shmmeee]

I haven’t been following that one, sorry.

Paid Russian troll gets sanctioned for being a paid Russian troll. Hardly the same.

 

[Grendel]

Paid Russian troll gets sanctioned for being a paid Russian troll. Hardly the same.

Well it is the same as there was no court trial but direct government action. I assume if Thatcher when MI5 were issues concerned regarding John McDonnell and the affiliation to the IRA you’d have been ok if that government froze his bank accounts and ultimately declared him on non citizen with no trial?

 

[Nick]

Were you groomed by an older man?

Do you think the girls in Rotherham were responsible for their actions?

The 12 year olds who were raped?

It's a fucking weird comparison.

What about child sex abuse victims who grow up to abuse children themselves? Ahhhh let them off. Get them round to babysit.

 

[TomRad85]

The 12 year olds who were raped?

It's a fucking weird comparison.

What about child sex abuse victims who grow up to abuse children themselves? Ahhhh let them off. Get them round to babysit.

I like Shmmeee as a poster (most controversial thing I've written in this thread tbh) but the comparison is bonkers.

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[Grendel]

I like Shmmeee as a poster (most controversial thing I've written in this thread tbh) but the comparison is bonkers.

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I find Begum disturbing as even now she appears to be very much on the side of ISIS as a grown woman. I doubt her mindset has changed

However she is a UK citizen and you have to acknowledge it and she has to be allowed to return

The comparing to rape of minors isn’t especially helpful - I would say Patti hurst is a good comparison - she was kidnapped but the brainwashing did transform her into a full blown Terrorist in the US.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The comparing to rape of minors isn’t especially helpful

I do feel the need to clarify Rotherham wasn't just 12yos but also 14, 15yis. Here's one Rotherham victim 'disgusted' as 'not ONE professional held to account' although we're going down a path of digression for no real reason really.

Anyway, it's worth noting that yesterday's judgement says:

"there was a credible case that Ms Begum was a victim of trafficking and sexual exploitation when she went to Syria in 2015, that did not stand in the way of the home secretary stripping her of British citizenship, because she had subsequently become a threat." So we're talking about her as an adult wrt the citizenship question.

And tbh that's why it's a bloody mess innit, somebody can have bad things done to them, it can explain why they became a bad person... but that knowledge doesn't stop them being a bad person.

 

[Grendel]

I do feel the need to clarify Rotherham wasn't just 12yos but also 14, 15yis. Here's one Rotherham victim 'disgusted' as 'not ONE professional held to account' although we're going down a path of digression for no real reason really.

Anyway, it's worth noting that yesterday's judgement says:

"there was a credible case that Ms Begum was a victim of trafficking and sexual exploitation when she went to Syria in 2015, that did not stand in the way of the home secretary stripping her of British citizenship, because she had subsequently become a threat." So we're talking about her as an adult wrt the citizenship question.

And tbh that's why it's a bloody mess innit, somebody can have bad things done to them, it can explain why they became a bad person... but that knowledge doesn't stop them being a bad person.

It is an interesting discussion - my real point is governments should not decide without trial to remove people from their society

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It is an interesting discussion - my real point is governments should not decide without trial to remove people from their society

No, and I agree with you there. Ultimately, she's our responsibility to deal with, however unpalatable that thought may be.

 

[Nick]

If she is still of a terrorist mind, lock her up in solitary. Job done.

 

[robbiekeane]

Were you groomed by an older man?

Do you think the girls in Rotherham were responsible for their actions?

Shit argument do better

 

[tisza]

I find the lines disturbing/confusing. She can be stripped of her citizenship (whist being born here and her family is here) but convicted murderers, rapists,serious criminals etc (who weren't born here and were awarded citizenship- in some cases don't even have citizenship) can't be deported because they have new families here.
Obviously there's the different of angle of National security vs public security but there does seem still to be a lack of consistency. Does seem to be very much a political football case.
Some 400 Brits suspected of joining ISIS in Syria etc have returned to the UK and only around 40 prosecuted. for many of these it seems govt only allowed to electronically tag them for 2 years.

 

[clint van damme]

The 12 year olds who were raped?

It's a fucking weird comparison.

What about child sex abuse victims who grow up to abuse children themselves? Ahhhh let them off. Get them round to babysit.

I think it's a strange comparison as well, though as I said in an earlier post, a more like for like comparison is Rhiannan Rudd who did have charges dropped because it was deemed she was groomed.


And even then, even though there are similarities, as someone said every case needs to be dealt with on its own merit and I think Begums actions as an adult need taking into serious consideration.

Another point, what if Bangladesh wanted to wash their hands of a Bangladeshi wrong un and tried to foist them on us because they had British heritage? Would people be ok with that?

 

[Nick]

Joanna Dennehy said she was abused as a child too, give her a cuddle.

 

[SBT]

Well it is the same as there was no court trial but direct government action. I assume if Thatcher when MI5 were issues concerned regarding John McDonnell and the affiliation to the IRA you’d have been ok if that government froze his bank accounts and ultimately declared him on non citizen with no trial?

It’s genuinely hard to follow that last sentence, but has Phillips had his citizenship revoked?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think it's a strange comparison as well, though as I said in an earlier post, a more like for like comparison is Rhiannan Rudd who did have charges dropped because it was deemed she was groomed.


And even then, even though there are similarities, as someone said every case needs to be dealt with on its own merit and I think Begums actions as an adult need taking into serious consideration.

Another point, what if Bangladesh wanted to wash their hands of a Bangladeshi wrong un and tried to foist them on us because they had British heritage? Would people be ok with that?

There would need to be some hard evidence that she really isn't a Bangladeshi citizen.

 

[Grendel]

It’s genuinely hard to follow that last sentence, but has Phillips had his citizenship revoked?

He has had his assets frozen and cannot pay bills. The government has frozen his bank. For a so called journalist you do lack knowledge. Do you review WU flower events for the Basilden Times?