Do you want to discuss boring politics? (236 Viewers)

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Bugsy

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
I don't understand this point of view at all, it's an absolute failure to understand how foreign policy works.

We were involved at the start of this whole mess when Israel was established, we've got a seat on the UN security council and hence a permanent veto on their resolutions, we trade with Israel and with other countries directly affected, we sell arms to Israel, and our shipping is under attack in the Middle East because of our seeming support for Israel.

Politely, it's a nonsense to claim that what we say either as a government or as a potential government, makes no difference. It absolutely does, both domestically and internationally.
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Nothing the UK says it does is going to stop us being seen as the west by Houthi rebels. Nothing we do is going to change the direction of this war outside of direct negotiations that won’t be helped by setting our position out in public.

This week is entirely about election positioning. The SNP against Labour, Tories stirring that up, Labour against Labour, the Tories stirring that up.

Meanwhile this is the terrible genocidal statement you’re all up in arms about:

That this House believes that an Israeli ground offensive in Rafah risks catastrophic humanitarian consequences and therefore must not take place; notes the intolerable loss of Palestinian life, the majority being women and children;

condemns the terrorism of Hamas who continue to hold hostages;

supports Australia, Canada and New Zealand’s calls for Hamas to release and return all hostages and for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, which means an immediate stop to the fighting and a ceasefire that lasts and is observed by all sides, noting that Israel cannot be expected to cease fighting if Hamas continues with violence and that Israelis have the right to the assurance that the horror of 7th October cannot happen again;

therefore supports diplomatic mediation efforts to achieve a lasting ceasefire; demands that rapid and unimpeded humanitarian relief is provided in Gaza;

demands an end to settlement expansion and violence; urges Israel to comply with the International Court of Justice’s provisional measures;

calls for the UN Security Council to be meet urgently;

and urges all international partners to work together to establish a diplomatic process to deliver the peace of a two-state solution, with a safe and secure Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state, including working with international partners to recognise a Palestinian state as a contribution to rather than outcome of that process, because statehood is the inalienable right of the Palestinian people and not in the gift of any neighbour.
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W

wingy

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Ban US social media until we figure out what the hell is going on.
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shmmeee said:
Nothing the UK says it does is going to stop us being seen as the west by Houthi rebels. Nothing we do is going to change the direction of this war outside of direct negotiations that won’t be helped by setting our position out in public.

This week is entirely about election positioning. The SNP against Labour, Tories stirring that up, Labour against Labour, the Tories stirring that up.

Meanwhile this is the terrible genocidal statement you’re all up in arms about:
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Mitigation, get out of these excuses!
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
wingy said:
Mitigation, get out of these excuses!
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Whether we put a statement out asking for an immediate ceasefire or and immediate humanitarian ceasefire is not a good use of parliaments time. The house has made its feelings clear, everyone got a vote.
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Whether we put a statement out asking for an immediate ceasefire or and immediate humanitarian ceasefire is not a good use of parliaments time. The house has made its feelings clear, everyone got a vote.
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Now I'm afraid you're making stuff up. Can you tell me, for example, which way Penny Morduant voted. Stephen Kelly?

I'm honestly staggered that you think there's something more important than our government trying to have some influence on one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our times. Should we focus more on potholes, perhaps?
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Nothing the UK says it does is going to stop us being seen as the west by Houthi rebels. Nothing we do is going to change the direction of this war outside of direct negotiations that won’t be helped by setting our position out in public.

This week is entirely about election positioning. The SNP against Labour, Tories stirring that up, Labour against Labour, the Tories stirring that up.

Meanwhile this is the terrible genocidal statement you’re all up in arms about:
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You're supporting the side that were up in arms mate, it was Labour who couldn't get their arse in gear behind a ceasefire declaration. That's a matter of inconvenient fact I'm afraid.

If it's not a big deal, as you keep saying, why not just support the SNP motion or allow a free vote on it at least?

Similarly, you now seem to have switched to "we shouldn't say anything that could affect our negotiating position". Tell me, can we influence things or can't we, because I'm not quite clear now?

This endless whining about a trap is laughable. Labour could have brought their own motion for a ceasefire weeks ago. Why didn't they?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
Now I'm afraid you're making stuff up. Can you tell me, for example, which way Penny Morduant voted. Stephen Kelly?

I'm honestly staggered that you think there's something more important than our government trying to have some influence on one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our times. Should we focus more on potholes, perhaps?
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Isn’t the point that it’s all kind of semantics in terms of the wording of the motion and amendments. Purely politics as shmmee suggested and most of what I’m hearing in the media agree. We all want the killing of innocent lives to stop and all parties agree on this. It’s been said publicly, even by the US and still it continues. Ultimately the Israeli government and Hamas are the only ones who control the outcome and neither seem to give a fuck about civilian deaths
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Isn’t the point that it’s all kind of semantics in terms of the wording of the motion and amendments. Purely politics as shmmee suggested and most of what I’m hearing in the media agree.
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Yes precisely.

The end result was a motion passed calling for a ceasefire. Which is apparently what everyone wanted.

Anything else about a particular wording was simply political games.

SNPs and Tories threw their toys out the pram despite claiming to want a ceasefire. Which shows they wanted to trap Labour, failed, and now look stupid arguing over the thing they claim to want so badly.
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
PVA said:
Yes precisely.

The end result was a motion passed calling for a ceasefire. Which is apparently what everyone wanted.

Anything else about a particular wording was simply political games.

SNPs and Tories threw their toys out the pram despite claiming to want a ceasefire. Which shows they wanted to trap Labour, failed, and now look stupid arguing over the thing they claim to want so badly.
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And a total reversal of logic again. If all parties wanted a ceasefire, why not simply vote for the SNP motion as proposed?

Funny how no one who says the SNP are playing politics seems to be able to answer that very simple question.
 
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
PVA said:
Yes precisely.

The end result was a motion passed calling for a ceasefire. Which is apparently what everyone wanted.

Anything else about a particular wording was simply political games.

SNPs and Tories threw their toys out the pram despite claiming to want a ceasefire. Which shows they wanted to trap Labour, failed, and now look stupid arguing over the thing they claim to want so badly.
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As for toys out of the pram and fussing about semantics - for Christ's sake, it was Labour who ran flapping to the speaker whining about it all, not the SNP. Edit: Before SNP's opposition day motion, obviously.

Again, simple question, if Labour were so keen on a ceasefire, why didn't they post a motion at any point in the last few months or weeks? They've had plenty of opportunity.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
'only when his hand was forced with evidence did he act'?

Ah, so hearsay and innuendo is what's needed eh.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
Now I'm afraid you're making stuff up. Can you tell me, for example, which way Penny Morduant voted. Stephen Kelly?

I'm honestly staggered that you think there's something more important than our government trying to have some influence on one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our times. Should we focus more on potholes, perhaps?
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Penny Mordaunt chose not to vote. I have no idea who Stephen Kelly is, afaict he’s not an MP.

We should focus on what will work. This whole thing is nothing but political positioning for domestic voters.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
This whole thing is nothing but political positioning for domestic voters.
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Yet Starmer spoke to the Israeli President prior to the vote and had Hoyle pull an unprecedented stunt to ensure a phrase in the SNP motion never made it to light.
That's a lot of effort for a bit of domestic political positioning.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
Yet Starmer spoke to the Israeli President prior to the vote and had Hoyle pull an unprecedented stunt to ensure a phrase in the SNP motion never made it to light.
That's a lot of effort for a bit of domestic political positioning.
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Hoyle intended all votes to happen, SMp and Tories sabotaged that so they could have a moan because their plan was to stop Labour. It’s literally just the side whose political machinations didn’t work complaining and people like you with a disposition to back Tories over Starmer buying it hook line and sinker.

And yes. I imagine as a future PM he has spoken to the people involved. That’s his job and what’s actually likely to make a difference not arguing over wording of a statement literally no one is going to pay any attention to and only exists to inflame/resolve internal Labour politics.
 
JAM See

JAM See

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Hoyle intended all votes to happen, SMp and Tories sabotaged that so they could have a moan because their plan was to stop Labour. It’s literally just the side whose political machinations didn’t work complaining and people like you with a disposition to back Tories over Starmer buying it hook line and sinker.

And yes. I imagine as a future PM he has spoken to the people involved. That’s his job and what’s actually likely to make a difference not arguing over wording of a statement literally no one is going to pay any attention to and only exists to inflame/resolve internal Labour politics.
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Ooof!
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Election year. No playing now. If you spend all your energy making things up to be mad at Starmer about I’ll assume you’re a dyed in the wool Tory.
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Id call it self reflection
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Hoyle intended all votes to happen, SMp and Tories sabotaged that so they could have a moan because their plan was to stop Labour. It’s literally just the side whose political machinations didn’t work complaining and people like you with a disposition to back Tories over Starmer buying it hook line and sinker.

And yes. I imagine as a future PM he has spoken to the people involved. That’s his job and what’s actually likely to make a difference not arguing over wording of a statement literally no one is going to pay any attention to and only exists to inflame/resolve internal Labour politics.
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I thought none of this would have any affect, now you're saying it will, you're tying yourself in knots.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
What's made up?
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Sudden concern for parliamentary procedure, pretending the LOTO talking to world leaders is evidence of some Jewish conspiracy, misrepresenting Labours position on absolutely everything to try and make out they’re no different to Tories, I could go on.

Since 2019 the left on here have been closer to Grendel than the centre left.

Look at this shit FFS:

1708784932542.png

You are what you do and yes if you spend all your energy trying to keep the Tories in power through ludicrous misinformation I will assume you are a Tory.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Sudden concern for parliamentary procedure, pretending the LOTO talking to world leaders is evidence of some Jewish conspiracy, misrepresenting Labours position on absolutely everything to try and make out they’re no different to Tories, I could go on.

Since 2019 the left on here have been closer to Grendel than the centre left.

Look at this shit FFS:

View attachment 34228

You are what you do and yes if you spend all your energy trying to keep the Tories in power through ludicrous misinformation I will assume you are a Tory.
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Maniac!
Post some nonsense from Twitter which is a million miles away from the point I'm making.

And if you're honest, if a tory had pulled this stunt you'd be all over it.
And the amount of MPs on, all sides of the house, taking money from Israel is a concern in my opinion, in the same way the amount of tories taking money from Russia is.

But it doesn't point to a Jewish plot, that's conflating Israel with Jews, which is antisemitic.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Even Sajid Javed can't come out and say it for what it is.

Some of the replies are thoriughly depressing mind you. What social media has done is emboldened minorities to speak with more force and be taken as more important and influential than they really are.

 
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