USSR invades Ukraine. (71 Viewers)

[Grendel]

No answer to the question though.

You want the war to stop, apparently. Russia fucking off out of Ukraine would stop the war. Therefore you must support this, yes?

Got nothing to do with what will or might happen, just what YOU think of that proposal hypothetically.

I don’t think it would stop the war but make the bombing and destruction far worse.

Is this serious? Perhaps Adolf should have quit and we’d all be happy ever after as he’d have just stayed at home and ate Bratwurst for the rest of his life?

 

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[skybluetony176]

I don’t think it would stop the war but make the bombing and destruction far worse.

Is this serious? Perhaps Adolf should have quit and we’d all be happy ever after as he’d have just stayed at home and ate Bratwurst for the rest of his life?

He was very famously a vegetarian. You really do know fuck all about fuck all.

 

[Grendel]

He was very famously a vegetarian. You really do know fuck all about fuck all.

Ok Tony

Hitler the Vegetarian? (Published 2007)

To the Editor:.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Skybluekyle]

500k people is absolutely tragic.

I know Russia started the invasion n but it's Putin in reality. Some poor c**t sat in Rostov and packed off to the front to be fed into the meat grinder is horrible.

We, as a species, should have moved past all this by now.

This is it. Putin embodies the state, and due to his cult of personality, any criticism of him is deemed a criticism of Russia and its people, when in actuality it's not.

Russia is not the problem, it's Putin and his stranglehold over a country that has not really seen any semblance of the democracy it claims to have.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I don’t think it would stop the war but make the bombing and destruction far worse.

Is this serious? Perhaps Adolf should have quit and we’d all be happy ever after as he’d have just stayed at home and ate Bratwurst for the rest of his life?

Right...so Russia stopping trying to take over Ukraine will lead to increased bombing and destruction.

 

[Grendel]

Right...so Russia stopping trying to take over Ukraine will lead to increased bombing and destruction.

Well it’s hardly difficult.

The only way that it happens is forced retreat. Putin will then either reek huge military vengeance or he is replaced by someone else who will probably worse.

Putin has no desire to return the Soviet block. He’s not interested - he’s far more akin to the pre Bolshevik views - those of the Ramonovs.

Crimeria has always been seen as Russian. It was in Russia and not the Soviet Block until the 50’s and its population have always been Russian. Gorbachov was a vein man seduced by western glamour and his biggest error was allowing a Russian dominated area to become part of Ukrainian independence

So the hypothesis is stupid anyway and the notion Putin would retreat without consequence is absurd.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well it’s hardly difficult.

The only way that it happens is forced retreat. Putin will then either reek huge military vengeance or he is replaced by someone else who will probably worse.

Putin has no desire to return the Soviet block. He’s not interested - he’s far more akin to the pre Bolshevik views - those of the Ramonovs.

Crimeria has always been seen as Russian. It was in Russia and not the Soviet Block until the 50’s and its population have always been Russian. Gorbachov was a vein man seduced by western glamour and his biggest error was allowing a Russian dominated area to become part of Ukrainian independence

So the hypothesis is stupid anyway and the notion Putin would retreat without consequence is absurd.

You know, you would probably wouldn’t get accused of being pro Russian if you didn’t keep quoting Putins dodgy dossier dressed up as an historical fact essay “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. You even buy into his self proclaimed image that he’s a Romanov, the truth is he’s more Ivan the Terrible as any Russian historian worth their salt will tell you. And you accuse me of copy and pasting.

 

[Sick Boy]

This is it. Putin embodies the state, and due to his cult of personality, any criticism of him is deemed a criticism of Russia and its people, when in actuality it's not.

Russia is not the problem, it's Putin and his stranglehold over a country that has not really seen any semblance of the democracy it claims to have.

The mindset of the country is very different to that of the West. This is something that a lot of people are oblivious to.

 

[Grendel]

You know, you would probably wouldn’t get accused of being pro Russian if you didn’t keep quoting Putins dodgy dossier dressed up as an historical fact essay “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians”. You even buy into his self proclaimed image that he’s a Romanov, the truth is he’s more Ivan the Terrible as any Russian historian worth their salt will tell you. And you accuse me of copy and pasting.

There is zero evidence that Putin would make any attempt to return to the old Soviet Block - its a US driven narrative.

His actions are far more akin to pre Bolshevik days - this is hardly a radical opinion. The notion he wishes to annex former USSR states and return them to Moscow control is far more extreme and not evidenced by his actions to date.

Crimea has in reality been Russian for most of the post 17th century and its people are Russian in origin.

 

[Grendel]

The mindset of the country is very different to that of the West. This is something that a lot of people are oblivious to.

Indeed and what people refuse to accept is the attempt to westernise under Gorbachov was a calamity for the country and its occupants.

 

[Skybluekyle]

There is zero evidence that Putin would make any attempt to return to the old Soviet Block - its a US driven narrative.

His actions are far more akin to pre Bolshevik days - this is hardly a radical opinion. The notion he wishes to annex former USSR states and return them to Moscow control is far more extreme and not evidenced by his actions to date.

Crimea has in reality been Russian for most of the post 17th century and its people are Russian in origin.

Except when Russia renounced all claims to Crimea, and Russia agreed with Ukraine and signed the Budapest memorandum agreeing to uphold its territorial integrity.

Patent rubbish that Putin doesn't want a return to the the good old USSR days. You can ignore all evidence to the contrary if you want, though.

 

[Skybluekyle]

The mindset of the country is very different to that of the West. This is something that a lot of people are oblivious to.

Not really brought anything new to the conversation, as that is pretty much what I just said... cult of personality has been created, simple as that.

 

[PVA]

The notion he wishes to annex former USSR states and return them to Moscow control is far more extreme and not evidenced by his actions to date.

 

[Grendel]

Except when Russia renounced all claims to Crimea, and Russia agreed with Ukraine and signed the Budapest memorandum agreeing to uphold its territorial integrity.

Patent rubbish that Putin doesn't want a return to the the good old USSR days. You can ignore all evidence to the contrary if you want, though.

Can you supply the evidence to support your view?

 

[Sick Boy]

Not really brought anything new to the conversation, as that is pretty much what I just said... cult of personality has been created, simple as that.

It’s not just Putin, it’s a completely different mindset to the West and was way before Putin.

 

[Grendel]

Not really brought anything new to the conversation, as that is pretty much what I just said... cult of personality has been created, simple as that.

Its nothing to do with cult of personality. You are oblivious to the fact Russia and its people are opposed to Western democracy. They will never want it. The west see Gorbachov as a hero - he is despised in Russia.

 

[Skybluekyle]

Can you supply the evidence to support your view?

Yeah, the fact that Putin invaded a sovereign nation in defiance of a UN Treaty explicitly stating they wouldn't.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

 

[Grendel]

Yeah, the fact that Putin invaded a sovereign nation in defiance of a UN Treaty explicitly stating they wouldn't.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

No sorry that’s not evidence he wishes to return to the old USSR - that’s what I want to see

 

[Skybluekyle]

Its nothing to do with cult of personality. You are oblivious to the fact Russia and its people are opposed to Western democracy. They will never want it. The west see Gorbachov as a hero - he is despised in Russia.

Interesting... why do they constituently claim to be a democracy then?

 

[Skybluekyle]

No sorry that’s not evidence he wishes to return to the old USSR - that’s what I want to see

Sorry, it is. Based on the available facts, the only conclusion that can be drawn from Putin invading Ukraine, in defiance of a UN treaty, of a nation that once was part of the USSR, is that he wants to reclaim Ukraine or parts of it into the territorial regions of Russia.

 

[Grendel]

Interesting... why do they constituently claim to be a democracy then?

So do North Korea - it’s not interesting at all and not relevant to the point the Russian people saw a catastrophic impact on their lives when Gorbachov was in power. Many lost everything overnight.

Of course having a hopeless drunk in charge post Gorbachov was equally catastrophic and no one denies Putin is a money making gangster but this isn’t changing for the better.

 

[Grendel]

Sorry, it is. Based on the available facts, the only conclusion that can be drawn from Putin invading Ukraine, in defiance of a UN treaty, of a nation that once was part of the USSR, is that he wants to reclaim Ukraine or parts of it into the territorial regions of Russia.

That’s hilarious

 

[PVA]

Putin is obsessed with Russian history and he's made it quite clear he thinks Ukraine is Russian land that needs to be reclaimed.

 

[Grendel]

Putin is obsessed with Russian history and he's made it quite clear he thinks Ukraine is Russian land that needs to be reclaimed.

Well no one is disputing that - Tony is actually so this could be interesting

 

[skyblueelephant76]

So do North Korea - it’s not interesting at all and not relevant to the point the Russian people saw a catastrophic impact on their lives when Gorbachov was in power. Many lost everything overnight.

Of course having a hopeless drunk in charge post Gorbachov was equally catastrophic and no one denies Putin is a money making gangster but this isn’t changing for the better.

It was mainly Ukrainians and citizens of the other countries that lost everything overnight.

My wife's family lost their entire life savings as well as money they had paid for a car as Russia cut off access to everything and kept it for themselves.

 

[Skybluekyle]

So do North Korea - it’s not interesting at all and not relevant to the point the Russian people saw a catastrophic impact on their lives when Gorbachov was in power. Many lost everything overnight.

Of course having a hopeless drunk in charge post Gorbachov was equally catastrophic and no one denies Putin is a money making gangster but this isn’t changing for the better.

What sort of logic do you use, my man? I ask the same thing of North Korea, why do they need to claim to be something apparently the people don't believe in or want?

You say Russian people don't want democracy, how do you know this? how have they come to that conclusion if they have never had the chance to experience it?

Also, the Soviet Union was in trouble before Gorbachev came into power, and the disregard for public health and the lack of transparency at Chernobyl ultimately led to the start of the downfall of the Soviet Union.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well no one is disputing that - Tony is actually so this could be interesting

What am I supposed to be disputing exactly?

 

[Skybluekyle]

That’s hilarious

You have a quite juvenile debating style, which is not conducive to a good discussion, so I might be wasting my time. However, I'll give you another chance. Do you know what evidence is?

The evidence is; Russia agreed to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Russia illegally annexed three parts of Ukraine into its territory (remember, it invaded and then absorbed the territories), Russia has claimed wrongly of Nazism in Ukraine, Russia has denied Ukraine's right to statehood. All available evidence, that is all evidence, concludes it is more likely than any other possibility that Putin has an irredentist agenda.

 

[shmmeee]

“No no the people want to be brutally repressed”

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Sick Boy]

“No no the people want to be brutally repressed”

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.

It’s not that they want to be repressed but it’s a much greater collective society than the West with a very different mindset.

 

[Grendel]

You have a quite juvenile debating style, which is not conducive to a good discussion, so I might be wasting my time. However, I'll give you another chance. Do you know what evidence is?

The evidence is; Russia agreed to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Russia illegally annexed three parts of Ukraine into its territory (remember, it invaded and then absorbed the territories), Russia has claimed wrongly of Nazism in Ukraine, Russia has denied Ukraine's right to statehood. All available evidence, that is all evidence, concludes it is more likely than any other possibility that Putin has an irredentist agenda.

It’s evidence Putin wants to return Ukraine to Russia - not he suddenly wants East Berlin back is it?

 

[Skybluekyle]

It’s evidence Putin wants to return Ukraine to Russia - not he suddenly wants East Berlin back is it?

Never said he did want East Berlin back, but I reckon he would if he could. Why do I say this? Because Russia has meddled with multiple former Soviet states, just ask Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.

Nah, I am sure he just wants Ukraine and that's it...

 

[Grendel]

Never said he did want East Berlin back, but I reckon he would if he could. Why do I say this? Because Russia has meddled with multiple former Soviet states, just ask Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.

Nah, I am sure he just wants Ukraine and that's it...

So it’s supposition and not evidence based theory then?

Putin will not meddle with a NATO protected country. We meddle in the Middle East but I don’t see time when we roll tanks through the whole Islamic regime.

 

[skybluetony176]

It’s evidence Putin wants to return Ukraine to Russia - not he suddenly wants East Berlin back is it?

Return to Russia. Lifted straight out of Putins dressed up dossier On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians that you seem so convinced is historically accurate.

And East Berlin was not part of the USSR dumbo.

 

[Grendel]

Return to Russia. Lifted straight out of Putins dressed up dossier On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians that you seem so convinced is historically accurate.

And East Berlin was not part of the USSR dumbo.

Oh Tony I’m well aware it wasn’t but it highlights the absurdity of the argument that there is an intention to revise the landscape back the post war territory occupation.

Anyway Kyle thinks he’d have in back if he could. Take the issue up with him.