Do you want to discuss boring politics? (56 Viewers)

[fatso]

Dare I say but you can thank Brexit. I heard an explanation for it the other day that made perfect sense. When we had freedom of movement with the EU we had very fluid immigration with the natural control being the availability of jobs. The majority of people weren’t permanent immigration, they’d often come to the UK for a few years before returning home set up for life, some came seasonally only. Crucially we had freedom of movement from a pool of roughly about 450 million people, although obviously only a percentage of that number would be of working age.

Fast forward to post Brexit and we obviously need to replace somehow the fluid arrangement we had before. So we look to replace it with immigration from outside the EU. However there’s was an issue, the UK needed to be more attractive to international migrants. The big one being certain thresholds were too strict to ensure we replaced EU FOM so one of the first things we did was lower the wage threshold from £30K a year to £26K a year IIRC. Only now the pool is about 8.5B people although again only a certain percentage of that will be people of working age. All of a sudden we have a record amount of legal immigration in one year of 750K as the nett figure in 2022.

It was always one of the great cons of Brexit. We replaced a very fluid immigration system from a small pool that worked well for the UK economy for a very solid immigration policy from a far larger pool of people. Let’s not forget that also means that a large number now coming are baked in. They’re not returning back to their home country once they’ve made the money they set out to and growing old there. The new crop are largely here for life, that means our NHS and Social Care system will have to look after them, that means we’re going to need more immigrants as we have a declining birth rate. We’ve got ourselves in a vicious circle of being even more dependent on immigration.

Well that's certainly one theory. However I'd suggest that the populous was already unhappy about the impact of immigration long before Brexit. Brexit was the outcome of that frustration, the fact that we havnt had the desired outcome of brexit is down to this government's incompetence.

Imo, No one who voted to take back control of our borders ever envisioned we'd change one form of mass immigration for another.
That's down to our political classes.

 

---

[fatso]

Farage has told you to believe that too many foreigners is the only reason why everything’s a mess. It isn’t.

Trust me, it has nothing to do with Farage, I'm a little more sofisticated than that.

Government corruption and incompetence plays a massive part, but if Labour is the answer we'll all be more than happy with things in a couple of years or so.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well that's certainly one theory. However I'd suggest that the populous was already unhappy about the impact of immigration long before Brexit. Brexit was the outcome of that frustration, the fact that we havnt had the desired outcome of brexit is down to this government's incompetence.

Imo, No one who voted to take back control of our borders ever envisioned we'd change one form of mass immigration for another.
That's down to our political classes.

Before Brexit most immigration came from outside the EU. It probably still is the case.

What did you think that flipping off the continent was going to do to solve the issue?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Trust me, it has nothing to do with Farage, I'm a little more sofisticated than that.

Government corruption and incompetence plays a massive part, but if Labour is the answer we'll all be more than happy with things in a couple of years or so.

Deliberate spelling error? You’re repeating his arguments almost to the word.

 

[fatso]

Before Brexit most immigration came from outside the EU. It probably still is the case.

What did you think that flipping off the continent was going to do to solve the issue?

It was about taking control of immigration from the EU (freedom of movement) AND not having Brussels telling us how many non EU migrants we had to take.

It's since come to pass that we're more than capable of fucking things up ourselves.

 

[fatso]

Deliberate spelling error? You’re repeating his arguments almost to the word.

Well maybe he has a point?

Out of interest how much immigration would you say is acceptable? Should we have open borders and unchecked movement?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'm a little more sofisticated than that.

Satire is not dead

 

[skybluetony176]

Well that's certainly one theory. However I'd suggest that the populous was already unhappy about the impact of immigration long before Brexit. Brexit was the outcome of that frustration, the fact that we havnt had the desired outcome of brexit is down to this government's incompetence.

Imo, No one who voted to take back control of our borders ever envisioned we'd change one form of mass immigration for another.
That's down to our political classes.

We did take back control. We, I say we, I think it was actually the policy of chief snake oil salesman Boris Johnson and his Home Secretary who was Pritti Patel at the time, to make the UK more attractive to Non EU migration by lowering the wage threshold. That is the level of control they chose to replace FOM. Funnily enough they didn’t put that on the side of the bus. Let’s lower the wage threshold to attract more non EU immigration to replace EU migration instead.

There was also people warning that this would be the necessary requirement should we give up FOM. What were they called again? Experts. But assistant to the snake oil salesman Michael Gove convinced enough people to have enough of them. Although to be fair I don’t think the experts ever expected the numbers post Brexit to get as high as they did.

 

[clint van damme]

Imo, No one who voted to take back control of our borders ever envisioned we'd change one form of mass immigration for another.
That's down to our political classes.

Just to point out, and it's in the EU thread, but some of us pointed out that that's exactly what would happen.

Let's see if Starmer can come up with a solution that satisfies people.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Let's see if Starmer can come up with a solution that satisfies people.

Not sure that's actually possible.

 

[clint van damme]

Not sure that's actually possible.

I think you're right.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well maybe he has a point?

Out of interest how much immigration would you say is acceptable? Should we have open borders and unchecked movement?

He doesn’t have a point, he’s a charlatan conning working people into thinking that an immigrant is the reason they don’t have better lives.

Since you asked though, look at how much certain sectors of the economy rely on immigrant labour because British people either aren’t skilled enough or aren’t willing to do them. Give a shit about education, training and offering better working conditions and you will not need to hire so much from abroad.

 

[skybluetony176]

It was about taking control of immigration from the EU (freedom of movement) AND not having Brussels telling us how many non EU migrants we had to take.

It's since come to pass that we're more than capable of fucking things up ourselves.

Did Brussels ever tell us that?

On the boat crossings specifically it’s not a coincidence that the numbers have gone up exponentially since we left, it literally started on day one. When we were EU members we were also part of the Dublin agreement which meant we had the right to automatically return arrivals by small boats back to France or whichever EU country they first entered into the EU. The figures clearly suggest it was a far bigger deterrent than the Rwanda policy. Most likely because there was more chance of return to the EU mainland than there now is to Rwanda. Another Brexit own goal. Why send money to Rwanda when we can spend it on the NHS instead. Didn’t see that on the side of a bus either.

 

[skybluetony176]

He doesn’t have a point, he’s a charlatan conning working people into thinking that an immigrant is the reason they don’t have better lives.

Since you asked though, look at how much certain sectors of the economy rely on immigrant labour because British people either aren’t skilled enough or aren’t willing to do them. Give a shit about education, training and offering better working conditions and you will not need to hire so much from abroad.

Nursing and Doctors is a good example. How many doctors and nurses are we importing every year instead of training them at home?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Nursing and Doctors is a good example. How many doctors and nurses are we importing every year instead of training them at home?

You can add care workers to that list, and it will be teachers soon enough

 

[skybluetony176]

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You can add care workers to that list, and it will be teachers soon enough

And that's why a solution is probably impossible isn't it, because nobody will vote in somebody who would be welling to spend the £billions training enough of our own, and even if they were voted in we'd need at least a decade before we saw the results, so they'd get voted out before it worked.

All the time Farage is going look over here and ignoring the actual problems.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well that's certainly one theory. However I'd suggest that the populous was already unhappy about the impact of immigration long before Brexit. Brexit was the outcome of that frustration, the fact that we havnt had the desired outcome of brexit is down to this government's incompetence.

Imo, No one who voted to take back control of our borders ever envisioned we'd change one form of mass immigration for another.
That's down to our political classes.

Well many of those of us who didn't vote for it knew that immigration was way more than just EU based and immmigration from places like India and Africa were still going to be there.

We also knew that stopping small boats when you've just stopped working with the country where they're coming from was going to make it a lot harder..

Maybe people who voted to take back control of our border needed to do a bit more envisioning?

 

[fatso]

Well many of those of us who didn't vote for it knew that immigration was way more than just EU based and immmigration from places like India and Africa were still going to be there.

We also knew that stopping small boats when you've just stopped working with the country where they're coming from was going to make it a lot harder..

Maybe people who voted to take back control of our border needed to do a bit more envisioning?

Or maybe the government needed to deliver what they promised.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Or maybe the government needed to deliver what they promised.

Or maybe the people should have realised that what they promised was never, ever a feasible outcome.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

All the things you mention are relevant, but if we control the numbers the impact can be calculated and costed. (Although we've done a piss poor job so far)
With no control we have no chance of maintaining a functioning infrastructure.

Every review has said immigrants add more to society than they take out. So the impact will be positive.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Farage has told you to believe that too many foreigners is the only reason why everything’s a mess. It isn’t.

No he and the Tories have just used them as the scapegoat for what has gone wrong. The last thing they want us for immigration to reduce substantially as they then have no one to scapegoat.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Not sure that's actually possible.

I think he has a plan to invest more resource into addressing the backlog of cases but really people will only be satisfied if the anti foreigners rhetoric stops which sadly I don't see happening. Unfortunately post Brexit referendum that genie is out of the bottle.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

And that's why a solution is probably impossible isn't it, because nobody will vote in somebody who would be welling to spend the £billions training enough of our own, and even if they were voted in we'd need at least a decade before we saw the results, so they'd get voted out before it worked.

All the time Farage is going look over here and ignoring the actual problems.

Exactly this. People who talk about we should fill jobs with British workers have absolutely no idea how long it takes to become full functioning doctor. However, the real shortage profession is social care, which is why it annoys me when Tories talk about only allowing high earning people in.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Or maybe the government needed to deliver what they promised.

They weren't able to as it isn’t really possible. And if they did they would have nothing to deflect from their appalling mismanagement of the country.

 

[skybluetony176]

Or maybe the government needed to deliver what they promised.

Yeah. They didn’t actually promise you anything. They campaigned a meaningless and ambiguous 3 word slogan, let you fill in the gaps based on your own own thoughts of what that meant and then did what they always planned to do without actually telling you what that was.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Exactly this. People who talk about we should fill jobs with British workers have absolutely no idea how long it takes to become full functioning doctor. However, the real shortage profession is social care, which is why it annoys me when Tories talk about only allowing high earning people in.

I agree it will take more than 5 years to fix but we must at least start now. The neglect from the Tories, funnily enough caused by refusing to spend anything, is going to cost even more to address because of the secondary effects of what they’ve done.

Meanwhile Farage continuing the Trump tribute act

 

[rob9872]

One close to my heart today

Day 18: Prisons​ Click here to listen to an audio recording of this reflection.​

Matthew 25.43-45 'I was a stranger and you did not welcome me … sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

Prisons are a stark reminder of the fractures in our society. The words of Jesus Christ in today’s reading provoke us to care and pray for those in prison and remind us not to forget those who are hidden from society. What might this mean for penal reform? The prison population is growing, and resources have not kept pace. As we pray for our overcrowded prison system, we pray for just leaders who want mercy and hope to be interwoven with justice and punishment. We pray for a commitment to prisons as places of rehabilitation and transformation. As society seeks to reduce offending and reoffending, we pray for leaders with holistic, imaginative and courageous vision, we pray for the lives of offenders, victims, prison staff, families and communities, as we keep our eyes on God who is making all things new. ​

Show your mercy on prisoners and refugees and all who are in trouble, need or distress. Hear us, good Lord.

Fuck off

 

[Sick Boy]

I wouldn’t worry about it Pete. The brand of right wing populism sweeping many countries are just a bunch of talentless charlatans who when faced with real responsibility will crumble. Look at Argentina, they wanted him out with in a couple of months, mass protests most weeks. They’re stuck with him and by the time the next elections come round they’ll see the mistake of electing far right populist chancers. Looks like they have already.

Maybe France needs the same, see the reality of far right populism and lament it. She doesn’t seem to have any qualities that’s going to change anything for the better. She’s a disrupter, nothing more.

Not sure that’s true.
While I don’t agree with her, Meloni is a very clever and astute politician whose grip on power has increased. If there was a GE in Italy tomorrow I’m pretty sure she’d win a majority.

BTW, it’s unlikely that Le Pen would actually be leader.

 

[fatso]

Or maybe the people should have realised that what they promised was never, ever a feasible outcome.

Well the alternative to controlling the numbers is open borders with no checks or controls, would you be in favour of that?

 

[djr8369]

I wouldn’t worry about it Pete. The brand of right wing populism sweeping many countries are just a bunch of talentless charlatans who when faced with real responsibility will crumble. Look at Argentina, they wanted him out with in a couple of months, mass protests most weeks. They’re stuck with him and by the time the next elections come round they’ll see the mistake of electing far right populist chancers. Looks like they have already.

Maybe France needs the same, see the reality of far right populism and lament it. She doesn’t seem to have any qualities that’s going to change anything for the better. She’s a disrupter, nothing more.

God I hope you’re right. But when so many are popping up the chances of one of them doing something really daft go up.

 

[djr8369]

I thi

That's called ostrich thinking apparently.

As in stick your head in the sand and ignore the reasons people are voting for change.

It could be worse, at least your not ignorant enough to brand millions of French men and women as "gammons and frothers"

The fact is, there's millions of people across Europe who feel disenfranchised by their political classes and are looking for an alternative. Here in the UK that alternative will be Labour, but in 5 years time, when we see the inevitable fuck up that they will inflict upon the country (like the Tory party) you'll invariably see a similar surge to the right as we're seeing now in France and other countries.

Part of the problem is that when people seek a political change, they nearly always bring about a 180 degree change rather than a gentle, controlled steer towards the centre ground.
Thus we'll end up screeching along like an out of control car trying to avoid hitting both curbs.

I think most would agree with you the problem is it will only make every problem worse and introduce a whole load of new risks. That’s people’s frustration. It’s not that we don’t understand people are fed up.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Day 19: The Justice System​ Click here to listen to an audio recording of this reflection.​

Psalm 85 'Mercy and truth are met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other.’

The scope and range of our Justice System is wide and deep. The Justice System is not only about punishment, but also about prevention and protection, about care for victims and rehabilitation for those convicted. The lives of every one of us will be touched at some point by the Justice System. We may come into contact as witnesses, defendants or jurors, as professionals in the police, the courts, in prisons or in the probation service. We may work in the voluntary sector with the vulnerable or damaged – or be the family or friends of those who have that contact. Today’s reading from Psalm 85 reminds us that the justice of the Kingdom of God is both truth and mercy, both righteousness and peace. And so we pray, as Jesus himself taught us, for God’s kingdom to come – as much in this crucial aspect of our common life as elsewhere. ​

Bless those who administer the law, that they may uphold justice, honesty and truth. Hear us, good Lord.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

 

[SkyBlueMatt]

I saw him earlier this year, he does a brilliant show. You'd think trying to stretch it out over 90 minutes might get a bit repetitive but he nailed his routine and it was hilarious.

I cannot wait to vote these f*ckers out. I don't like the current Labour party as they are effectively moderate Tories of 15 years ago but if they don't get a decent majority after what we've had over the last 15 years. We are f*cked and shows how far to the right our political landscape has shifted.