Do you want to discuss boring politics? (32 Viewers)

[Captain Dart]

Both Epstein associates. Probably old drinking buddies.

The internet never forgets.

 

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[chiefdave]

I'm sure I heard/read that the NHS recently had 50,000 employees off sick.
Can't be correct surely??

There are 1,500,000 people employed by the NHS, so that would be 3.3%, which is close to public sector average, private sector being 2.6%.
Public sector sickness rates are generally higher than private sector rates due to a combination of factors including:

• Job nature:
  Many public sector roles, particularly in healthcare and social services, can be physically and emotionally demanding, leading to higher sickness rates compared to certain private sector jobs.
  
  
• Sick leave policies:
  Public sector employees often have more generous sick leave policies with better pay protection, potentially encouraging more reporting of illness.
  
  
• Work culture:
  Some argue that the public sector may have a slightly more relaxed approach to reporting sickness due to perceived job security, which could contribute to higher absence rates. This not my experience as someone who worked in the NHS for a very long time, including 30 years as a senior manager. Sickness rates were a performance target with the aim of it being managed downwards with clear trigger standards set for individuals to have capacity reviews with a panel of senior managers, professionals and what we used to call HR but these days seem to have adopted titles like talent management or “People”. People what?
  
  
• Mental health concerns:
  Studies suggest public sector workers might be more likely to take sick days related to mental health issues due to workplace pressures.

Having been in hospital recently, I have to say that quite a lot of the ward staff were unwell with flu like symptoms and in my view should not have been at work, so to think that this is chronic unjustified absenteeism is far from the truth. Ward staff do not have the option to work from home if they have a sniffle. What these nurses were showing was presenteeism which isn’t always helpful in the NHS.

Think CVB might have meant to post in here not the Trump thread so I'll drag it over to respond to Malc.

I've worked in the charity sector, education, local government and private sector and in my experience work culture in the private sector is you very much drag yourself in no matter what. This is despite the fact that there are some studies that will tell you presenteeism costs the UK economy far more than sickness.

My ex worked for the NHS and they were very on top of sending people home if they were sick and also recognising when people were becoming overly stressed or being impacted in other areas of mental health. Of course that has likely changed as the pressure on the NHS to perform miracles with the resources they have has increased. In fact her department doesn't even exist anymore because why would you need adolescent mental health services.

Looking at the breakdown of NHS sickness the figures for respiratory illness, along with things such as flu like symptoms has shot up since covid came along. Not hard to work that one out. The other thing that has increased is mental health issues. Potentially that could also be linked to what frontline staff went through during covid.

 

[Ian1779]

View attachment 41135
The internet never forgets.

Mandelson would have no hesitation in defending nonces to further his own agenda.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You’re talking about an age old problem though. The only thing that’s changing is the mechanics. High enough birth rates to maintain an aging population, grow the economy etc vs high enough immigration to maintain an aging population, grow the economy etc. The only thing that’s changing is how you maintain the status quo of having enough people working, so basically nothing is changing.

There’s another study recently that also predicts that a 7% raise in income tax without immigration due to falling birth rates.

But this is not sustainable. You just cannot have perpetual population growth to maintain an ever growing ageing population.

 

[MalcSB]

Think CVB might have meant to post in here not the Trump thread so I'll drag it over to respond to Malc.

I've worked in the charity sector, education, local government and private sector and in my experience work culture in the private sector is you very much drag yourself in no matter what. This is despite the fact that there are some studies that will tell you presenteeism costs the UK economy far more than sickness.

My ex worked for the NHS and they were very on top of sending people home if they were sick and also recognising when people were becoming overly stressed or being impacted in other areas of mental health. Of course that has likely changed as the pressure on the NHS to perform miracles with the resources they have has increased. In fact her department doesn't even exist anymore because why would you need adolescent mental health services.

Looking at the breakdown of NHS sickness the figures for respiratory illness, along with things such as flu like symptoms has shot up since covid came along. Not hard to work that one out. The other thing that has increased is mental health issues. Potentially that could also be linked to what frontline staff went through during covid.

Excellent response.

Nearest I came to “cracking” was my last job. It was a really weird feeling and contributed hugely to my decision to retire before the bastards finished me off. The stresses are genuine, having to save 3 - 5% of budget every year as a cost improvement programme whilst often treating significantly more patients than “ agreed “ in the contract for no more money gets a tad tricky after a while. Perhaps that is a reason for me being pissed off at the money spent on interpreters. It would be a relatively easy, recurring saving.

I chaired lots of capacity reviews, and terminated the contracts of a number of people who were failing to meet their attendance targets etc. Quite a few really didn’t seem bothered in the slightest. As @shmmeee says elsewhere, many / most of those staff who you could see were genuinely really quite unwell or had long term issues really were desperate to keep their jobs. Unfortunately, for fairness and consistency, I had to terminate a number of contracts of employees in that category where Occupational Health had suggested they would struggle to meet the attendance targets. It genuinely made me feel sad every time : the very worst part of an otherwise good job ( except for the near “ cracking” - a result of being micromanaged by people who were basically pulling me in opposite directions on one issue).

One if those people was not actually my direct line manager, the other was pretty much me as I knew how my line manager would want the business case I was working on to be constructed and the detail he would want to be included. So a struggle between my internal self and an external more senior manager. It’s quite hard to tell yourself to shut the fuck up and leave me alone and you never get a break from yourself 24/7.

IIRC highest causes of sickness absence were respiratory, skeleto muscular injury, menatal health issues - the middle one prevalent in ward staff ( nurses, HCAs).

Presenteeism was discouraged on the basis of risk to patients and colleagues. How effective that really knows I’m not sure. But we did our best in the circumstances. You would have thought staff would have seen it as a good thing to comply with, especially as we had staff die with covid, believed to be hospital acquired.

I'm boring myself now, so I will leave it at that.

 

[MalcSB]

But this is not sustainable. You just cannot have perpetual population growth to maintain an ever growing ageing population.

It will be a self fulfilling prophecy of failure.

 

[chiefdave]

Nearest I came to “cracking” was my last job.

In my current job we've had two people, myself included, taken to hospital from work.

Upon release both were back at their desks within hours of being discharged.

From my experience of working for SMEs for the last 15+ years I don't think it's particularly the company we're working for, it's an expectation everywhere.

Every business now seems to be run with the absolute minimum number of people they can get away with and therefore the pressure to have 100% attendance has massively increased. Of course, as we saw during covid, thats a one way street and they won't think twice about getting rid of you or cutting your hours if its to their benefit.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I'm afraid I can't get on board with the idea of having a lower percentage of native population being a good thing, even though since being back here I do seem to encounter a lot of idiots! Surely it directly effects British culture if there are less and less people here that are British? I'm not sure how you can argue against that really. Like I said though, I don't have any faith in the country building the infrastructure needed to support a growth in population regardless of who's in that - and that's a massive issue. Not just in the future, but we're already past breaking point now.

But what is British 'culture'? It is, and always has been, fluid and changing. What someone 100 years ago thought of as British culture would be vastly different to what we see as British culture today, as it would have been 100 years before them . And so it will be in the future as the changes that we're seeing today become the cultural norm for younger generations of the future, and they in turn will express concern at the changes that are occurring to that as they get older. All the talk of the dangers of immigrants changing the culture is not new - exactly the same was thought of people like the Irish after the famine, and of Windrush in the 60's.

You can even argue that within today's society there's no such thing as British culture as if you ask anyone what it is you'll get a variety of answers, and those differences are likely to be just as big due to socio-economic differences as they are nationality, as the differences between the rich and poor are so great it is effectively a totally different culture linked purely by a shared language.

A century or so ago British culture would be men working 9-5 Mon-Fri while women stayed home as they were physically and mentally inferior to men, nothing except church could be open Sunday, almost everyone would be Christian to some degree and hardly anyone would or should speak a foreign language. That is not British culture today, and not all of that is different due to immigration. For example do you think people then would see British culture as staring at screens and taking selfies? That is just driven by technological change, just as working in factories with set working hours instead of on the land based around daylight/weather and living in a more urban rather that rural environment (which was a far bigger change to British culture than anything we're seeing now) was brought about by (British) technological changes.

 

[MalcSB]

But what is British 'culture'? It is, and always has been, fluid and changing. What someone 100 years ago thought of as British culture would be vastly different to what we see as British culture today, as it would have been 100 years before them . And so it will be in the future as the changes that we're seeing today become the cultural norm for younger generations of the future, and they in turn will express concern at the changes that are occurring to that as they get older. All the talk of the dangers of immigrants changing the culture is not new - exactly the same was thought of people like the Irish after the famine, and of Windrush in the 60's.

You can even argue that within today's society there's no such thing as British culture as if you ask anyone what it is you'll get a variety of answers, and those differences are likely to be just as big due to socio-economic differences as they are nationality, as the differences between the rich and poor are so great it is effectively a totally different culture linked purely by a shared language.

A century or so ago British culture would be men working 9-5 Mon-Fri while women stayed home as they were physically and mentally inferior to men, nothing except church could be open Sunday, almost everyone would be Christian to some degree and hardly anyone would or should speak a foreign language. That is not British culture today, and not all of that is different due to immigration. For example do you think people then would see British culture as staring at screens and taking selfies? That is just driven by technological change, just as working in factories with set working hours instead of on the land based around daylight/weather and living in a more urban rather that rural environment (which was a far bigger change to British culture than anything we're seeing now) was brought about by (British) technological changes.

Will Sharia law be acceptable as a modification of British culture? Would probably reduce immigration, particular amongst LGBTQ+ communities. All women forced to wear Niqabs? No alcohol? Public stoning and beheadings?

 

[MalcSB]

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What a bunch of fucking arseholes. Deliberate provocation, acting in a manner likely to cause a breach of the peace. It would have been interesting to see them dissappear if it had kicked off.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Will Sharia law be acceptable as a modification of British culture? Would probably reduce immigration, particular amongst LGBTQ+ communities. All women forced to wear Niqabs? No alcohol? Public stoning and beheadings?

You're wasting your time mate.

 

[MalcSB]

You're wasting your time mate.

Well, at least if it happens I can say I tried to warn people. It will creep in while we are looking elsewhere or asleep. People will then say, as they step over the bodies of people who have been thrown off roofs, how the fuck did we get to this point, and it will be too late.

NB the use of the word if

 

[MalcSB]

I would very much like it if Strictly Come Dancing, The Masked Singer and Ant and Dec disappeared from UK culture.

Any of these “talent”, quiz or reality shows. Anything involving Ant and Dec, including the cringeworthy Santander adverts. Mrs. Brown’s Boys, Rue Paul‘s Drag Race. EFL Championship on Sky.

 

[MalcSB]

View attachment 41135
The internet never forgets.

I wonder what the strategically dangled label says?

 

[SBT]

Well, at least if it happens I can say I tried to warn people. It will creep in while we are looking elsewhere or asleep. People will then say, as they step over the bodies of people who have been thrown off roofs, how the fuck did we get to this point, and it will be too late.

NB the use of the word if

Be honest with yourself, this is a truly insane level of anxiety. If someone said this about the threat of climate change you would call them deranged.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well, at least if it happens I can say I tried to warn people. It will creep in while we are looking elsewhere or asleep. People will then say, as they step over the bodies of people who have been thrown off roofs, how the fuck did we get to this point, and it will be too late.

NB the use of the word if

I think the fact that some communities have had it for a number of years and it hadn’t impact mine or your life is something
There should only be one law or the land though but you can only access that if you have enough money

 

[shmmeee]

Will Sharia law be acceptable as a modification of British culture? Would probably reduce immigration, particular amongst LGBTQ+ communities. All women forced to wear Niqabs? No alcohol? Public stoning and beheadings?

Sounds like this place after a particularly horrific crime.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Sounds like this place after a particularly horrific crime.

At least it’s only people talking on here …………..

 

[Grendel]

In my current job we've had two people, myself included, taken to hospital from work.

Upon release both were back at their desks within hours of being discharged.

From my experience of working for SMEs for the last 15+ years I don't think it's particularly the company we're working for, it's an expectation everywhere.

Every business now seems to be run with the absolute minimum number of people they can get away with and therefore the pressure to have 100% attendance has massively increased. Of course, as we saw during covid, thats a one way street and they won't think twice about getting rid of you or cutting your hours if its to their benefit.

I don'y know how many work in your business but that is the reality. SME companies generally have to manage increasing costs, higher customer demands, dwindling profits and harder supplier negotiations.

Now the governments decisions on NI hikes and minimum wage heights at a time of depressed demand will make things even worse. Costs that will have to be paid by struggling businesses.

 

[MalcSB]

Be honest with yourself, this is a truly insane level of anxiety. If someone said this about the threat of climate change you would call them deranged.

I was using this as an example of a potential cultural change in a further response to a poster who thinks that cultural change is likely to accelerate and is acceptable. Cultural change won’t necessarily be limited to, say, another traditional .English pub becoming an Indian restaurant. Perhaps when Indian restaurants start becoming English pubs we will have successfully have cracked cultural integration and interchange.

I accept that my example is probably extreme. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who want to move in that direction. Some posters have suggested that a continuing decline in the indigenous population is not a problem.

It certainly could be.

 

[SBT]

I was using this as an example of a potential cultural change in a further response to a poster who thinks that cultural change is likely to accelerate and is acceptable. Cultural change won’t necessarily be limited to, say, another traditional .English pub becoming an Indian restaurant. Perhaps when Indian restaurants start becoming English pubs we will have successfully have cracked cultural integration and interchange.

I accept that my example is probably extreme. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who want to move in that direction. Some posters have suggested that a continuing decline in the indigenous population is not a problem.

It certainly could be.

You've never been to a Desi pub?

Nothing wrong with extreme examples I suppose - well, except for all the fearmongering and discrimination that feed off them.

 

[PVA]

Plenty of great pubs serving Indian food around!

 

[CovValleyBoy]

Imagine Brian Walden interviewing Angela Raynor.
War & Peace meets Janet & John.

Wow how standards have fallen.

 

[shmmeee]

I was using this as an example of a potential cultural change in a further response to a poster who thinks that cultural change is likely to accelerate and is acceptable. Cultural change won’t necessarily be limited to, say, another traditional .English pub becoming an Indian restaurant. Perhaps when Indian restaurants start becoming English pubs we will have successfully have cracked cultural integration and interchange.

I accept that my example is probably extreme. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who want to move in that direction. Some posters have suggested that a continuing decline in the indigenous population is not a problem.

It certainly could be.

How much of this is us changing our culture? Brits don’t drink like they used to which is leading to pubs closing. We’ve generally withdrawn from a lot of public spaces in favour of nights in. We’ve stopped going to church. Immigrants generally have stronger social ties and are more visible in service jobs and the like…

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I was using this as an example of a potential cultural change in a further response to a poster who thinks that cultural change is likely to accelerate and is acceptable. Cultural change won’t necessarily be limited to, say, another traditional .English pub becoming an Indian restaurant. Perhaps when Indian restaurants start becoming English pubs we will have successfully have cracked cultural integration and interchange.

I accept that my example is probably extreme. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who want to move in that direction. Some posters have suggested that a continuing decline in the indigenous population is not a problem.

It certainly could be.

I take it you’ve never frequented a desi pub?

 

[shmmeee]

Just for balance I dragged myself in far more as a teacher than I ever have in the private sector.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Will Sharia law be acceptable as a modification of British culture? Would probably reduce immigration, particular amongst LGBTQ+ communities. All women forced to wear Niqabs? No alcohol? Public stoning and beheadings?

Well that's a measured response to what I said isn't it!

If you wonder why at times some people seem dismissive of your thoughts, it's shit like that. Sensationalist, over the top nonsense that is so implausible it's laughable.

​

 

[Ian1779]

You're wasting your time mate.

He is as are you - mostly because you’re talking a serious amount of absolute bollocks.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

He is as are you - mostly because you’re talking a serious amount of absolute bollocks.

There are some people on here that don't live in the real world, Ian. Malcs point was a bit exaggerated, but no one has actually really made any good counter arguments against it.

When you're met with denial and whataboutary there's little point in having a discussion. Some things even deliberately get ignored. The shooting in Sweden being a prime example.

Like I said, and waste of time, but not for the reasons you think.

 

[MalcSB]

Well that's a measured response to what I said isn't it!

If you wonder why at times some people seem dismissive of your thoughts, it's shit like that. Sensationalist, over the top nonsense that is so implausible it's laughable.

View attachment 41165​

I look at some of the stuff in here that seems entirely reasonable and wonder whether any of the potential endpoints have been considered. I then follow (what seems to me) to be a logical sequence of events to an end point which may turn out to be a long way from the op’s end point.

I have seen a desire for sharia law expressed in the past. Not necessarily affecting you and I so far @Sky Blue Pete , other than the costs of investigating honour killings.

As the native British population declines, will there not be a tipping point at which what you today think to be sensationalist over the top nonsense becomes plausible to a once minority group?

There are many on here who are dismissI’ve of anyone with any view that differs from their’s because of the acute disappointment at the performance of the Labour government and leadership whose arses their tongues are so firmly jammed up.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There are some people on here that don't live in the real world, Ian. Malcs point was a bit exaggerated, but no one has actually really made any good counter arguments against it.

When you're met with denial and whataboutary there's little point in having a discussion. Some things even deliberately get ignored. The shooting in Sweden being a prime example.

Like I said, and waste of time, but not for the reasons you think.

Comments like his are made as though we haven't gone to school and worked with people from different ethnic backgrounds, played sport with them etc etc. Most are good eggs and there are wronguns just as there are among white British people.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I look at some of the stuff in here that seems entirely reasonable and wonder whether any of the potential endpoints have been considered. I then follow (what seems to me) to be a logical sequence of events to an end point which may turn out to be a long way from the op’s end point.

I have seen a desire for sharia law expressed in the past. Not necessarily affecting you and I so far @Sky Blue Pete , other than the costs of investigating honour killings.

As the native British population declines, will there not be a tipping point at which what you today think to be sensationalist over the top nonsense becomes plausible to a once minority group?

There are many on here who are dismissI’ve of anyone with any view that differs from their’s because of the acute disappointment at the performance of the Labour government and leadership whose arses their tongues are so firmly jammed up.

Who has expressed a desire for sharia law?

 

[shmmeee]

Who has expressed a desire for sharia law?

Wokey lefty woke leftists wokeroonies. Probably lesbian human rights lawyers.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Wokey lefty woke leftists wokeroonies. Probably lesbian human rights lawyers.

Futurama called it

 

[MalcSB]

There are some people on here that don't live in the real world, Ian. Malcs point was a bit exaggerated, but no one has actually really made any good counter arguments against it.

When you're met with denial and whataboutary there's little point in having a discussion. Some things even deliberately get ignored. The shooting in Sweden being a prime example.

Like I said, and waste of time, but not for the reasons you think.

The thing is, if adoption of Sharia Law was ever proposed, how complete would the debate be. Or would it be limited to exclude the less appealing elements of it. The ones which would lead to what’s been described as my sensationalist and implausible scenario. Which aren’t implausible in other parts of the world.

Wokey lefty woke leftists wokeroonies. Probably lesbian human rights lawyers.

You missed some criteria out. Who want to save whales.