I thought you wanted a peace deal that would prevent them from ever joining certain alliances?
Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (52 Viewers)
- Thread starter tisza
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Boicey
Well-Known Member
You don't enter peace talks saying Ukraine won't join NATO, Ukraine won't regain territory and (the worst of all) Ukraine “may be Russian someday”. The latter just actively encourages Putin to continue his aim to destabilise and take all of Ukraine. It also shows Trump's real view.
Ukraine may for instance agree to the Dombas staying with Russia but Kherson and most land on the Black Sea comes back to Ukraine.
Trump has totally sold them out
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Making concessions like that before negotiating is beyond stupid.
Boicey
Well-Known Member
Let's face it it isn't 'peace talks' it's total appeasement to his mate Putin.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Putin has already played him like a fool and will continue to do so over the next few years.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
This is one of many consequences of electing a fucking moron to such an important position.
Trump potentially doing the dirty with Ukraine is unacceptable but this sums it up for me
‘Nato members are supposed to spend at least 2 per cent of their GDP on defence. Britain has done. But reneging on this promise has saved about €4 billion a year for France, €15 billion a year for Italy and €25 billion a year for Germany. Added up over decades, it’s quite a dividend. When actual work needs to be done — in Bosnia, Libya or Syria — Europe has called the Americans. Trump has called an end to this arrangement. But if he didn’t, another president would have done. Nato is about protecting member states, not policing their near abroad.’
It’s an absolute disgrace ! add to the historical reliance on cheap Russian energy, especially Germany, which has allowed Russia to build up their war chest and the current mess is unsurprising. When we (Europe) are relying on the goodwill of people like Trump, we’re in trouble
‘Nato members are supposed to spend at least 2 per cent of their GDP on defence. Britain has done. But reneging on this promise has saved about €4 billion a year for France, €15 billion a year for Italy and €25 billion a year for Germany. Added up over decades, it’s quite a dividend. When actual work needs to be done — in Bosnia, Libya or Syria — Europe has called the Americans. Trump has called an end to this arrangement. But if he didn’t, another president would have done. Nato is about protecting member states, not policing their near abroad.’
It’s an absolute disgrace ! add to the historical reliance on cheap Russian energy, especially Germany, which has allowed Russia to build up their war chest and the current mess is unsurprising. When we (Europe) are relying on the goodwill of people like Trump, we’re in trouble
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yup.
Putin will definitely have been laughing up his sleeve ever since Trump got in.
Definitely will play him like the fool he is.
Trump's Gaza plan is insane too of course.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The US spends more on its military than something like the next 8 or 9 combined. That level of spending probably encourages the other member states to cut back.
After all, realistically no country will directly attack the US so NATO really has just been about challenging Russia in Europe.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
And it’s mostly spending to support jobs at home not some great altruism. Will be interesting to see how DOGE manages against the military industrial complex.
That over reliance is now coming back to bite us though. Realistically we cant properly defend ourselves.
Sure Ive also read that Russia is currently spending the same on defence as the whole of Europe. There’s no excuse
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
For a start they aren't 'supposed to spend at least 2% of GDP on defence', it's a target.
This target only started in 2014 with the knowledge that it would take some member countries many years to reach the target. In fact when it first came in only 3 countries met the target but it's been steadily increasing since and now stands at 23 of the 32 member states. In 2014 Nato members collectively spent 1.43% of their combined GDP, its now 2.02%
Now if you really want to dig into why it is complete and utter nonsense and why countries with traditionally stronger militaries and larger spend have an easy time reaching the target look what is included. Pensions for a start, pension payments for UK or US military will dwarf that of other countries, but thats classed as defence spending. R&D is included so again countries such as the UK and US who are happy to have large weapons manufacturing sectors have a huge advantage in meeting the target.
tisza
Well-Known Member
If they're serious they are going to uncover some astonishing numbers in an organisation that has consistently failed to pass audits and has handed out ridiculous contracts. Literally trillions of dollars of assets unaccounted for.
It needs it !
It’s no surprise. They left $7bn of equipment in Afganistán.
CovValleyBoy
Well-Known Member
Reminiscent of the EU.
Pretty sure the number of countries spending 2% only increased after Trumps first term and threats. Why have you left France out the list of large military manufacturers ? Either way when there’s a war on our doorstep why are some nato countries still not spending 2% ?
Edit - also pretty sure it was a commitment. ‘In 2014, NATO Heads of State and Government agreed to commit 2% of their national Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to defence spending, to help ensure the Alliance's continued military readiness. This decision was taken in response to Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea, and amid broader instability in the Middle East. The 2014 Defence Investment Pledge built on an earlier commitment to meeting this 2% of GDP guideline, agreed in 2006 by NATO Defence Ministers’
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Boicey
Well-Known Member
Trump is only interested in major economic/military powers, US, China, Russia and maybe India (if he knows where it is).
The rest are to be bullied or threatened or sold out to another 'major' power.
To him NATO is largely a means to further empower the US if and when needed, he has no interest in the other member states.
He particularly hates the EU because that is a pact of countries punching above their weight and because they are largely liberal democracies which he despises as a far right authoritarian.
Boicey
Well-Known Member
Nothing remotely like the EU. Lots of oversight there and no military dimension which is vast in America.
tisza
Well-Known Member
EU now has to spend 100s of millions of Euros a year tackling fraud etc because of the billions it was being defrauded on - particularly in agriculture subsidies, development grants and cohesion funds
Boicey
Well-Known Member
Any citation for that?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Whereas the last 3 years have been an overwhelming success
You’ve said in the past that Ukraine should be barred from joining NATO or the EU - what changed?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree, but let's wait and see.
Boicey
Well-Known Member
They are only interested in 'uncovering' anything around so called 'woke' spending, aid, green initiatives etc. No interest in the military or spending on Israel etc. totally ideological.
When Musk took over twitter the biggest thing he discovered and shouted about was someone had a locker of 'woke' t-shirts.
Otis
Well-Known Member
No-one has said they have been.
But I am pretty sure Biden wasn't talking about taking Greenland by physical force, switching straws back to plastic and the USA taking control of Gaza and forcing the people there to move to other countries.
Trump is a loose canon and it is worrying. Though I do think he just lets his mouth off and really hasn't got a clue what he's saying at times.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I mean that's literally the point of NATO, that countries can't defend themselves properly so there is a collective agreement. Don't remember much wailing about percentage of GDP when article 5 was invoked post 9/11.
When the people celebrating are the likes of Putin and Netanyahu that indicates to me it's probably not the ideal path to be following. Especially when there's defence experts lining up to state Trumps actions are the biggest threat to peace since the end of WWII.
We're at a point where European countries are now talking about pivoting away from the US to China FFS, not sure why anyone in Europe would be cheering him on and agreeing with him.
Add France if you want, I was just using a couple of countries I was aware of as an example. Wasn't an exhaustive list. In any case France's spending is currently 2.1%
Now look at the title of what you have just copied and pasted, "The 2% defence investment guideline", it's a target, not a requirement. If it was mandatory then membership would be reliant on it. And if you really want to be critical then the initial goal was for countries to hit that target in 2024 so I'm not sure you throw the whole organisation out the window because 9 countries have missed the target in the first year. Especially when you consider all but 2 countries have been, and continue to, increase defense spending.
Realistically even if Trump was going to throw his toys out of the pram it should only really be Italy and Slovenia he takes issue with as the only countries below 2% who aren't increasing spending.
Surely you work with NATO to get everyone up to 2% rather than acting like a sulky teenager, 'its my ball and I'm going home'.
This isn't a serious attempt by the US to remodel global defence strategies, at least not in a way any sane person would welcome. You only have to look at the nonsense Vance came out with yesterday to see it's just more culture war bollocks. The saddest part is that there's people who fall for it and cheer them on while we give the upper hand to people we've spent years trying to hold at bay.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Anyway maybe he should spend more time worrying about what is happening at home rather than NATO
We’re past the point of trump throwing his toys out, that was in his first term and to be fair at least gave some countries a kick up their arse. My point is that his first term and then the Ukraine invasion should’ve been massive warning signs for nato members, especially those in Europe, to start taking defence more seriously and pay their way. The fact that these things happened after in the initial guideline of 2% in 2006, which was then re-enforced as a commitment 10 years ago, make it even worse ie countries still haven’t got to those levels after additional warnings.
I would also argue that those around Europe shouldve been paying more than that 2% since crimea war and certainly since the ukraine invasion.
tisza
Well-Known Member
Nope.They'll be going hard on military spending - Trump, Musk & Hegeseth already been making briefings about it. Tax dollars is the theme ofthisnew administration.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The theme is how to best enable robber baron billionaires to loot the Treasury while dismantling most of the government.
tisza
Well-Known Member
EU fraud budget. Cases already ongoing against Hungary, Romania & Slovakia off the top of my head for cohesion funds. Agriculture is a historically big one - area payments etc , Greek Olive hectarage was a big one.
€1.8B worth of fraud in EU in 2022, watchdog says
Anti-fraud agency says there was a 7 percent increase from 2021.
www.politico.eu
fingers_crossed
Well-Known Member
1.8bn lol, you know there’s 300bn of frozen Russian assets? It’s held in the US ( I wonder why Trump wants access to the payment systems?). It’s also held in the EU and Canada. The remainder of it is probably unfrozen and held via PanamIan shell companies. Does that list of countries remind you of anything? It’s almost like every single place where the US has tried to get leverage isn’t it? i wonder what the Republican Party’s finders fee is for returning it to Putin?EU fraud budget. Cases already ongoing against Hungary, Romania & Slovakia off the top of my head for cohesion funds. Agriculture is a historically big one - area payments etc , Greek Olive hectarage was a big one.
€1.8B worth of fraud in EU in 2022, watchdog says
Anti-fraud agency says there was a 7 percent increase from 2021.