CCFC Finances... (4 Viewers)

[Skybluesquirrel]

Hello!

Ive been working on a piece looking at the finances of SISU and CCFC. We constantly hear about £60 million worth of debt that that hangs over the club. Its taken me a while but Ive just put my first post up on my blog that suggests the real figure is closer to £33 million when you look at the overall finances of the parent company.

If you are interested, the blog is here:

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/

Its still a work in progress - I'm going to add some graphs and stuff to make it more palatable. Any feedback/comments etc are very much appreciated...

PUSB.

 

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[Sub]

a very long read, but a good read !!!

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Cheers Sub - took a lot longer to put together than I thought it would. At some point i'm going to try and edit it down...

The aim was to expose SISU's debt claims to be false, and the bits of feedback I've had has been positive so far!

 

[inside track]

Bear in mind they cleared £30 million of outstanding debts when they first arrived

 

[Bennets Afro]

Thought just transferred that to sisu not clearing it?????

 

[inside track]

Amounts to the same thing. Still effectively £30 million from Sisu.

 

[Bennets Afro]

Not when ccfc still owe it to sisu

 

[Godiva]

Hello!

Ive been working on a piece looking at the finances of SISU and CCFC. We constantly hear about £60 million worth of debt that that hangs over the club. Its taken me a while but Ive just put my first post up on my blog that suggests the real figure is closer to £33 million when you look at the overall finances of the parent company.

If you are interested, the blog is here:

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/

Its still a work in progress - I'm going to add some graphs and stuff to make it more palatable. Any feedback/comments etc are very much appreciated...

PUSB.

Excellent work and nice to see the forum now have two financial experts working together to translate the many figures into plain english.

The debt figures are center of most financial discussions, but as the debts are mainly owed to the sisu funds, they are in my mind not that interesting. To me cash flow is the key as it better show the state of the company/operation.

Is there anyway you can guestimate the current cash flow and give us a hint of how close we are to breakeven?
That figure could be a good indication if sisu are planning to stay or leave. It could also indicate how much a potential buyer would have to pay to acquire the club.

 

[wingy]

Thanks Sqirrel ,bit out of site in here but it all helps

 

[duffer]

Outstanding bit of work - that must have taken some time!

I suspect it will take more time to read than some here would wish, but it's a big, complex issue. If there's one thing to take out of it, it's that the £60m figure bandied around is very, very suspect.

Many thanks

 

[Jack Griffin]

Bear in mind they cleared £30 million of outstanding debts when they first arrived

Initially they cleared £8M debt, then they put another £3M. After that the charges kept coming, but nothing but demotion was achieved for all that.. whatever they spent it on it was not spent wisely..

Loans. Much is discussed about the SISU and other loans. Here are the facts as have so far been made available. On takeover the net liabilities of the group were discounted down by £35m leaving net debts of £8m for SISU to fund plus £3m losses from takeover until 31/05/08. By 31/05/08 they had provided a loan of £11m, this money loaned to the company to pay its debts. During the year to 31/05/09 these loans to SBS&L had risen by £12.4m to £23.4m. A further £700k was provided in 2010. Not all of that cash came to CCFC some would have covered the June 2008 acquisition of Prozone Group and funding its liabilities. Bear in mind that the funding SISU investors provide are loans to SBS&L that doesnt mean it all filters down to CCFC Ltd although because of cash flow difficulties much will have. RR was able to say we dont owe any banks but neglected to make clear we sure as hell owed SISU – we were never debt free as claimed. In fact there was £1.5m owed to RR’s own company Arley Group PLC in addition to SISU loans. The SISU loans do not charge interest those from Arley Group PLC did £153745 (2009) £310059 (2010)

OSB/Godiva

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Amounts to the same thing. Still effectively £30 million from Sisu.

Ive had a look into that and they renegotiated with the major creditors (likely to be Robinson) and reduced the debt from

SISU then injected just under £10million via SBSL Ltd in the three months after the takeover. The overall debt has increased to around £30 million. I will try and see if its possible to establish how much of that was in cash. Either way, well short of the £60 million they have loaded onto CCFC Ltd

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Excellent work and nice to see the forum now have two financial experts working together to translate the many figures into plain english.

The debt figures are center of most financial discussions, but as the debts are mainly owed to the sisu funds, they are in my mind not that interesting. To me cash flow is the key as it better show the state of the company/operation.

Is there anyway you can guestimate the current cash flow and give us a hint of how close we are to breakeven?
That figure could be a good indication if sisu are planning to stay or leave. It could also indicate how much a potential buyer would have to pay to acquire the club.

Thank you - way too kind!

I've been thinking of ways to attempt to work out the current figures. The problem is that even if you have hard evidence its still difficult to work out whats going on.

The key question is how much of the debt that is owing to SISU from the companies was invested as hard cash. I will se what i can come up with.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Bear in mind they cleared £30 million of outstanding debts when they first arrived

It was nearly 35m but did it actually disappear from the CCFC Ltd or CCFC H balance sheets ?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Ive had a look into that and they renegotiated with the major creditors (likely to be Robinson) and reduced the debt from

SISU then injected just under £10million via SBSL Ltd in the three months after the takeover. The overall debt has increased to around £30 million. I will try and see if its possible to establish how much of that was in cash. Either way, well short of the £60 million they have loaded onto CCFC Ltd

Robinson & McGinnity were part of the creditors retained but their debt disappeared when we were not promoted to premiership in 2013 - my understanding is that amounted to 6m w/o in the 2011 accounts as goodwill write dpwn

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think the way it was set up was that SISU off balance sheet agreed to fund the payment of the discounted creditors via SBS&L. The discounted creditors figure is the same as the goodwill purchased in SBS&L. That discounted amount included 6m that related to robinson etc and was only to be paid if the club promoted to premiership by 2013.

SBS&L then purchased the shares of CCFC H which owned 100% of CCFC Ltd. The balance sheets of the two companies remained as they were but creditors transferred to an inter company account.

So were all the creditors settled in cash? did the discount get reflected in the accumulated losses of CCFC Ltd or CCFC H ? is the write down of the goodwill actually a SBS&L loss or a SISU one? If they never paid Robinson etc 6m was that ever reflected in the amount "invested" by SISU? Did the original amount invested actaully equal 9m or was it 3m ?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Good analysis skybluesquirrel:wave:

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Excellent work and nice to see the forum now have two financial experts working together to translate the many figures into plain english.

The debt figures are center of most financial discussions, but as the debts are mainly owed to the sisu funds, they are in my mind not that interesting. To me cash flow is the key as it better show the state of the company/operation.

Is there anyway you can guestimate the current cash flow and give us a hint of how close we are to breakeven?
That figure could be a good indication if sisu are planning to stay or leave. It could also indicate how much a potential buyer would have to pay to acquire the club.

Have a look here... Have tried to get to the bottom of how much SISU have invested. Part one of two.

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

 

[skyblue2k]

Great read and can see what you mean, cannot wait for part 2

 

[Godiva]

Have a look here... Have tried to get to the bottom of how much SISU have invested. Part one of two.

http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/

Excellent work again. Won't be long before we can send OSB on a well deserved holliday.

You mention loan repayment and suggest it could be about the well known factoring of season tickets. But wasn't Ryton mortgaged for a short period?

I hope you can figure out where the club is today cashflow wise.

 

[sky blue john]

we could also do with some lawyers on here who are supporters to help us unravel the next part of the mess.

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Excellent work again. Won't be long before we can send OSB on a well deserved holliday.

You mention loan repayment and suggest it could be about the well known factoring of season tickets. But wasn't Ryton mortgaged for a short period?

I hope you can figure out where the club is today cashflow wise.

OSB did a bit of proof reading and offered suggestions before I posted it up. A true gent! Not allowed on holiday yet!

Good point about the remortgage. Slipped under the radar!

Im trying to find the time to finish off the part about the current situation...

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

we could also do with some lawyers on here who are supporters to help us unravel the next part of the mess.

Absolutely. Im happy to put contributions on the blog. The aim is to build a solid archive. Feel free to PM me if anyone has ideas.

 

[Godiva]

OSB did a bit of proof reading and offered suggestions before I posted it up. A true gent! Not allowed on holiday yet!

Good point about the remortgage. Slipped under the radar!

Im trying to find the time to finish off the part about the current situation...

I think the mortgage of Ryton happened in Ranson's final year and was repaid just after he left - maybe using the money from the sell of Prozone???

If this is true it tell us a story of how Ranson/Hoffman/Elliott lost control of the finances and that sisu apparantly refused (or couldn't) inject more money. That might have lead to the dispute between the owners and the 'Trinity'.

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

Ive been doing further work on how the historical losses have been calculated in Sky Blue Sports and Leisure Ltd. As always its not straight forward and asks questions about the governance of both the club and auditors. The second part of two...

http://wp.me/p3tgbp-1f

My take on the administrators report is also here.

The administrator has finally reported yet has been unable to confirm which company listed its principle activity as a professional football club. He also has not been able to establish in which company the players contracts reside. He has yet to locate the ‘golden share’, the certificate which allows the club to compete in the football league. Here is some help...

http://wp.me/p3tgbp-1i

 

[wingy]

Ive been doing further work on how the historical losses have been calculated in Sky Blue Sports and Leisure Ltd. As always its not straight forward and asks questions about the governance of both the club and auditors. The second part of two...

http://wp.me/p3tgbp-1f

My take on the administrators report is also here.

The administrator has finally reported yet has been unable to confirm which company listed its principle activity as a professional football club. He also has not been able to establish in which company the players contracts reside. He has yet to locate the ‘golden share’, the certificate which allows the club to compete in the football league. Here is some help...

http://wp.me/p3tgbp-1i

Is there any scope for Chicanery in the window created by the fact that the figures were signed off around 4 months late ?:thinking about:

 

[Godiva]

Ive been doing further work on how the historical losses have been calculated in Sky Blue Sports and Leisure Ltd. As always its not straight forward and asks questions about the governance of both the club and auditors. The second part of two...

http://wp.me/p3tgbp-1f

From link:

Furthermore, if we add together all of the loans received throughout the period to May 2011 from the cashflow statement, these total £38,509,063 and yet on the balance sheet at May 2011, the loans due to be repaid to SISU and its associated companies is only £29.7 million. How and where did the £8.8 million get repaid, as this does not appear to be shown anywhere in the accounts or cashflow statements.

£8.8m ... is it something to do with ARVO?

Is it possible for you to guess the current cashflow deficit?

 

[wingy]

From link:



£8.8m ... is it something to do with ARVO?

Is it possible for you to guess the current cashflow deficit?

Was'nt it mooted as £3m. yesterday ,possibly through the administrator.

 

[Godiva]

Was'nt it mooted as £3m. yesterday ,possibly through the administrator.

I think he said ARVO was owed £10m, but I may be wrong.

 

[oldskyblue58]

owed 10.25m Godiva including interest

 

[oldskyblue58]

Gives you a whole new view point when you look at the cash flows doesn't skybluesquirrel

 

[Godiva]

Gives you a whole new view point when you look at the cash flows doesn't skybluesquirrel

Exactly why I challenged him to the job.
But I still would love to see the current cashflow situation. Are we breaking even (cashflow wise)?

The debt figures are center of most financial discussions, but as the debts are mainly owed to the sisu funds, they are in my mind not that interesting. To me cash flow is the key as it better show the state of the company/operation.

Is there anyway you can guestimate the current cash flow and give us a hint of how close we are to breakeven?
That figure could be a good indication if sisu are planning to stay or leave. It could also indicate how much a potential buyer would have to pay to acquire the club.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Exactly why I challenged him to the job.
But I still would love to see the current cashflow situation. Are we breaking even (cashflow wise)?

wouldnt we all ......... but is that for the non trading property subsidiary or for the football operation and does that include the commercial arm of the group or not?:thinking about:

until the accounts are published then we wont know......

 

[Skybluesquirrel]

From link:



£8.8m ... is it something to do with ARVO?



Is it possible for you to guess the current cashflow deficit?

The £8.8 million is money that appears to have somehow been repaid. It doesn't add up. In one part of the accounts (the cashflow) we can see they have injected £38.5 million in loans since taking over. Yet on the Balance sheet, they are only owed £29.7 million.

So, £8.8 million has been repaid. Any ARVO money should be included in the £29.7 million, as they are part of the SISU group of companies. Is it a coincidence? Its definitely strange that its the same amount as reported in the press - The ARVO debenture issued/was taken out after the year end of the accounts we currently have available (it should be in accounts dated 31.05.12).

I have been trying to work out the current cashflow, but events are moving so fast its hard to keep up. Unfortunately, Im not being paid £340 an hour to do this and have to work elsewhere

 

[wingy]

I think he said ARVO was owed £10m, but I may be wrong.

That would seem about right £2M invested up to may 2012.
Meaning operating costs of £8M. ......Sounds heavy............Turnover @£5M. ............would have thought that was achievable ,but would expect Bigi's and Keoghs fees on top of that .